Project 949A: Oscar-II

GarryB wrote:Well that is interesting too... the Oscars were very useful tools, but had one trick... anti surface vessel capability.

Even without an upgrade to UKSK like tubes the land attack capabilities for Granit make it rather more flexible and powerful.

Replacing them with Onyx means capacity for Zircon when it gets into full production.

72 supersonic missiles able to hit land and sea targets... soon to be 72 hypersonic missiles able to hit land and sea targets is even more potent for the future.

It is only becoming more useful and more powerful...

Singular_Transform wrote:Simple kalibr is more than enough. And you can launch that from normal vessels.

Big_Gazza wrote:

Singular_Transform wrote:Simple kalibr is more than enough.  And you can launch that from normal vessels.

72x of them? from "normal" vessels? FFS thats equivalent the upgraded Adm Nahkimov (80) while Gorshkov "only" have 16...

I don't see why we are having this discussion.  Why would anyone doubt the value in upgrading the Anteis to 949AM?

Big_Gazza wrote:

Singular_Transform wrote:Simple kalibr is more than enough. And you can launch that from normal vessels.

72x of them? from "normal" vessels? FFS thats equivalent the upgraded Adm Nahkimov (80) while Gorshkov "only" have 16...

I don't see why we are having this discussion. Why would anyone doubt the value in upgrading the Anteis to 949AM?

GarryB wrote:

They can upgrade the granits with new electronics.

But why?

The rest of the navy is moving on to newer missiles... Onyx and Zircon... why leave your Oscars behind with a Ukrainian missile that is no longer in production?

BTW they have already added land attack capability which suggests they already upgraded the electronics anyway.


Installing the new standard universal launcher for cruise missiles means the subs can be reloaded by standard vessels and at any Russian port and can be loaded with a range of weapons offering flexibility and new capabilities.

Torpedoes are best kept loaded for self defence... ready to fire vertical tubes are always ready to launch.

Granit was an impressive weapon but newer missiles are available and can be carried in larger numbers in tubes that offer a range of loading options for a range of targets.

Size is expensive but also offers endurance and a capacity smaller vessels can never compete with.

Don't dispute that, my point is if they upgrade the granits with the onyx electronics then the missile will have extended range or payload.
That is a cheap option compared to anything.

Isos wrote:

Don't dispute that, my point is if they upgrade the granits with the onyx electronics then the missile will have extended range or payload.
That is a cheap option compared to anything.

It's useless. In the near futur all Russian ships will have UKSK to lunch kalibr/oniks. While the granit can be carried by few big ships, you can have 72 oniks in one Oscar and around 80 on 1 kirov it means 72 and 80 targets. With the precision of a kalibr or an oniks the weigh of the warhead is not important.

For a max range the granits will have to fly very high so they will be spottede far away. Kalibr land Attack can go 2000 km at an altitude always less than 500m. In such attack the typical detection range is 20 km and you have to have your air defence systems at a precise place to destroy them. An ossa will destroy a cruise missile if goes in its direction, if it enters just 5 sec in its engagement zone the missile will probably survive.

Cruise missile are very Dangerous weapons. Even an air defence like Russia's one won't be able to stop an attack of a big salvo. The best way to deal with it is to buy enough Pantsir and tor to cover all your country with them and use an AWACS like a yak-44 that will scan for them, this is the best option.

Granit flying at 15km altitude will be shot down by a modern system easily. That's not a super fast missile (mach 2.2 which is not a big problem for modern anti air radars and missile) and it's not a stealth design.

hoom wrote:Right so it will be the full Onyx/Kalibr setup not just Onyx

They all fit in same launcher by default. Zirkon will too. No brainer.

Big_Gazza wrote:Alternatively, they may be planning to carry the anti-ship kalibre model with the Mach3 sea-skimmer rocket-powered terminal attack stage.  Not much gets said about this variant, but its likely to be at least as lethal as an Oniks, and with its subsonic sea-skimmer approach it would be harder to defend against than an fast Oniks cruising at higher altitudes.