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    Domestic production of marine engines for Russian Navy

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    Gazputin

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    Post  Gazputin on Mon May 20, 2019 9:49 am

    I've been trying to fully understand it all

    my understanding is the RAN are the world leaders in hybrid drives
    so you'd have to expect that the new QE-class carriers are the "latest"

    they seem to be using electric final drive and the generation of the electricity is from either the gas turbines or the diesels
    yes diesels for cruising ….. gas turbines for sprinting … generally but not strictly set that way it seems

    having electric final drives makes perfect sense as you don't need to have your drive shafts aligned with your gas turbines etc …
    and you can use pod drives … etc …. and gives you huge areas to design your ship differently re the engine room

    its pretty obvious to me that you want final electric drive … its a no brainer
    I can't see why it wouldn't all be DC …. so infinitely variable control should be a doddle
    you only use AC to transmit power over long distances …

    but yep definitely a big area of development …. everything will go this way
    no doubt in my mind

    as I've said endlessly on this site …. the 20386 corvette is a really important ship

    I really like these discussions …. instead of the endless drivel about missiles etc







    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue May 21, 2019 6:37 am

    In terms of generating electrical power the GT is ideal... compact and powerful... they don't like dust but that is a problem on a tank but not a ship... and they don't take load very well so a T-80 or an M1A Abrams will burn a lot of fuel driving around the place... mainly because a lot of the driving for a tank is not on motorways at top speed... it is sitting behind a house in a village and then rapidly moving from there to another point of concealment... so stationary and then short bursts of maximum acceleration and then stop... which is very inefficient for a gas turbine, but fine for an electric drive vehicle with gas turbine energy production because the GT just maintains ideal revs to generate electricity... the problem is storing that electricity in a way that it is always ready and also ready in great volumes for fast acceleration from cover to cover.

    On a ship you could just have several GTs where most of the time you only have one working generating electrical current to power everything on board and run at a modest speed... GTs are relatively quick and easy to start up so powering up another three GTs to power everything at full power and run at top speed is not a problem.

    You will have a capacitor bank to temporarily store more power and batteries too and when needed you can fire them up too for extra speed and power.

    Of course a small nuclear generator like a battery would be useful too for emergency backup, to get you home...

    You could optimise the GT to run on LNG so it will be cheap to run as Russia has plenty of that to spare... and one LNG tanker with 200K tons of LNG could keep a surface fleet going for months or years depending on the tempo of operations.
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    wilhelm

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    Post  wilhelm on Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:24 am

    Any news on serial production of the marine turbines?
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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr on Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:02 pm

    marcellogo wrote:
    Yes but generally the electric part of the hybrid system is obtained not by the das turbines but by charging it with diesel generators. Lot of CODLAG or CODLOG, latest proposal are toward get it in full: diesels for bothcruise propulsion and electrical production, Gas for speed with the possibility of combine them all together when you want to go really fast.

    Yes typically they have 2 diesels for electric generation and 1 or 2 turbines also for electric generaton or they turbines can also be dog geared to the drive shaft. They sit there while the ship pottered around in diesel electric mode maybe up to 12 knots or so. When the *hit hits the fan and they need to move they fire up the turbines and they they blast along at 30+ knots as soon as it is warm enough and spooled up...which in most cases is a few min. I would assume they also have oil heaters so the turbine will not be dead cold when it fires up.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:05 am

    Of course different vehicles are different... a lot of very large vessels have rather small diesel engines or small gas turbines to generate emergency power independent of the main propulsion systems and might be used for low speed get you home sort of situations when the main engine wont start but you need to keep things working and to move about.

    Very much a sail back to home base at 6-8 knots and keep the lights on rather than stay in the battle and keep all the radars going and all the systems like communications etc etc.
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:00 am

    The first frigate of project 22350 with a fully Russian power plant - Admiral Golovko - will be launched before July 1 according to CEO of Severnaya Verf Shipyard Igor Ponomarev.

    source

    Very good news! Very Happy   and a big Fuck You to the Ukro nazi scumbags!! Laughing  russia
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:13 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Very good news! Very Happy   and a big Fuck You to the Ukro nazi scumbags!! Laughing  russia

    Why?

    Is the Russian Navy hitting them with Kalibrs yet?
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:02 pm

    Do I really need to explain why domestic Russian MGTs being installed to Russian warships is great news? Suspect
    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:10 pm

    YES. Please, go ahead. Laughing

    I expect at least 1.000 words from you! lol!
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:27 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:The first frigate of project 22350 with a fully Russian power plant - Admiral Golovko - will be launched before July 1 according to CEO of Severnaya Verf Shipyard Igor Ponomarev.

    source

    Very good news! Very Happy   and a big Fuck You to the Ukro nazi scumbags!! Laughing  russia

    The Kiev regime maggots are so smart that they are stupid. These retards thought Russia could not afford and was not capable of replacing
    Ukr production with Russian-made products. They can now eat shit. Russia has managed to replace all Ukr engines with its own new and
    more efficient designs. Ukr-tards can look on as their factories close and they permanently lose the ability to make the products that they
    were previously exporting to Russia.

    As for Russia taking out the Kiev regime. Why should it. The Kiev regime has solid support from 40% of Ukr-land. Russia has no obligation
    to wipe the asses of these degenerates. They can spiral to null of their own samo-bozhe-vilnost and Russia can look on and laugh.

    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:27 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    marat wrote:Just one Karakut?

    Engine delivery problems

    They have half a dozen sitting around waiting for diesels


    By the way, did they manage to start organizing production of those engines (M-507D1) also data different plant than Zvezda (of course, unless the bottleneck is some of Zvezda suppliers)?

    I remember reading about it some time ago (maybe it was last year)...
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    marat

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    Post  marat on Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:52 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    marat wrote:Just one Karakut?

    Engine delivery problems

    They have half a dozen sitting around waiting for diesels


    What a imbecils.... why they produce ships if engines are not avaialbe? They havent any better way to sped money? And they do that again and again and again...

    Isnt it obivious that they should stop production and spend money on project they could finish? Either military or civilian....
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:56 pm

    That's rather pathetic they never asked for a ToT for the engines to produce them locally. Right now they would be making perfect copies like China is doing with German engines.

    I guess they will learn the lesson. Never be dependant on someone.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:01 am

    Isos wrote:That's rather pathetic they never asked for a ToT for the engines to produce them locally. Right now they would be making perfect copies like China is doing with German engines.

    I guess they will learn the lesson. Never be dependant on someone.

    Well the Chinese diesels are not perfect copy or german engines, as far I understand they asked for licences production of an older version of the german diesel, but they have some reliability issues (and I believe also other characteristics are not the same).

    Furthermore, even if you have the drawings and even if you can assemble the engine it does not mean that you can produce it without external help if you are not able to produce any single part.

    As an example, if I am not mistaken, one of the issue that one of the new Russian diesel engine has its exactly its too high share of foreign components...

    http://mil.today/2018/Navy28/ wrote:
    A source in the Russian engine industry said the principal drawback of D500 was huge import dependency due to an array of foreign-made components. Hopefully, this problem would be fixed in the next few years, commented the interviewee of Mil.Press Today.

    Note this engine should eventually replace the D49 series (medium speed diesel) from Kolomensky Zavod, and it is not related to the  Zvezda M507 engine (high speed diesel) mounted on karakurts...

    Here some info on the Zvezda M507, that is anyway an old engine..

    https://zen.yandex.ru/media/tgd/o-dizele-bednom-zamolvite-slovo-pochemu-net-dvigatelei-dlia-novyh-korablei-5be156f644fea400aaec3dc7
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:08 am

    Lol they still rely on foreign parts for their engines? did they not learn their listen the first time.

    What a joke.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:14 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Lol they still rely on foreign parts for their engines? did they not learn their listen the first time.

    What a joke.
    Well they started working on it before 2013 most probably...
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:19 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Lol they still rely on foreign parts for their engines? did they not learn their listen the first time.

    What a joke.
    Well they started working on it before 2013 most probably...

    Doubt it, making their own engines was never a concern before then.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:49 pm

    This is hilarious... please one person from one country tell me is your country self sufficient right now?

    The US has Russian rockets in their possession and complete plans for their design but it takes them 10 years to build something that could do the same job.

    China has had Russian jet engines in service for quite some time but really are having trouble copying them to get the same performance and fuel efficiency...

    Do you think Russia and America and China are all idiots?

    Is it really just a case of copying all the components and assembling them together and you have a working engine?

    China has proved that not to be the case when Russia bought Chinese versions of German diesel engines and they were terrible.

    When those boats were built they had contracts for the necessary engines that would go into them.

    If you want to bitch and moan about incompetence moan about Germany blocking the sales of engines to Russia... the country bending over backwards to get them cheap gas so their production costs wont go up too much in the future... and why did they do that? Who remembers... putin invading crimea, putin invading the Ukraine, putin personally murdering people in the UK... or some such bullshit.

    I personally feel sorry for the workers in France and Germany who just want to build ships and make engines while their politicians play silly games, but eventually it will get sorted with Russian engines to do the job and those Russian engines can then be sold on the international market in direct competition to the likely more expensive German engines and their Chinese copies. My father had a fishing boat that had a chinese diesel engine in it... it was fantastic. simple and solid and reliable... running it most of the day it was costing him about $12 in fuel... which means he was essentially burning about 24 litres of fuel a day... I know a guy with a fizz boat it costs him hundreds of dollars a day to run... he would use more than 5 litres of petrol to start the damn thing...

    Doubt it, making their own engines was never a concern before then.

    Foreign parts has always been a concern for the Russians. Made more so by western sanctions and general bullshit.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:39 pm

    Is it really just a case of copying all the components and assembling them together and you have a working engine?

    No but if you ask for ToT when you buy such technologies it's easier then to make your own version if the country stops selling to you.

    Having just the engines, having the the engine + data sheets, having the engines + data sheets + some production lines is not the same.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:14 am

    Making parts for an engine is not just a case of shaping bits of metal and putting them together.

    In a jet engine there are lots of very complex parts made of alloys of several different metals combined... having the parts and therefore being able to analyse them and work out what materials are involved is not the solution... the super expensive high tech bits in French engines that America makes for them out of Titanium are made with Russian titanium. When Russia decided to make all its own engines in a range of families to suit any sized final product you want from tiny drone or cruise missile up to a transport to replace the An-225, the French made the offer that instead they could make the precision made titanium bits they get made in the US because they can't make them themselves... the offer they were hoping would get Russia to keep buying french engines and in return Russia would be making the money that the US is making providing the complex and very precisely made titanium parts in their engines... in the engines they use themselves and of course all the other engines world wide that the French make. An interesting offer, but with the case of the Mistrals... Russia can't trust France, so again American pressure on France costs France money and contracts and they stay tied to US components for their engines too.

    A diesel engine is not as complex but a big powerful diesel engine will need very precisely made parts and specific alloys will need to be used for it to work properly.... make a part to the wrong hardness and it might be too soft and wear out quickly leading to breakdowns and needing replacements. Too hard and the piece might shatter or crack and do damage to other parts and again lead to breakdowns and needing replacements.

    A ships engine is not like a car engine... you can't just pop the hood and fix the problem or if necessary take the engine out and fix what needs to be fixed and replace what needs to be replaced.

    Over time the Chinese are going to work out what parts are the issue and get the hardness right... it was probably the reason they used that special alloy of several metals to make it... but that wont show on the plans...

    Their problem is a lack of domestic diesel engines in a specific power range... there is clearly a need so it really shouldn't take too long with their modular and scalable powerplants drive to get to a solution for this and other boats with the same problem.

    Few countries with good products will provide full ToT to just anyone without getting paid the equivalent of selling the product to anyone who might buy it, because once you sell it and if you stop selling it... lets face it... not just likely for Germany and France to Russia... it happened, then once you sell ToT you have to expect them to not only keep making them but also to include them in products they sell to others which will cut into your sales of your own product.

    Russia isn't having a shit fit over China making Flankers because they are using them domestically and don't seem to be making them in huge numbers... if it is just for domestic consumption then they don't over react.
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    Post  PhSt on Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:37 am


    but eventually it will get sorted with Russian engines to do the job

    and when is this going to get sorted out? its been 6 years since Ukraine blocked sale of ship engines to Russia, how much more time does Russia need to develop a working domestic engine? 20 years? 30? by that time the engine they are making will be obsolete
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:02 pm

    PhSt wrote:
    but eventually it will get sorted with Russian engines to do the job

    and when is this going to get sorted out? its been 6 years since Ukraine blocked sale of ship engines to Russia, how much more time does Russia need to develop a working domestic engine? 20 years? 30? by that time the engine they are making will be obsolete

    What has this to do with the Ukraine?

    Yeah Russia lost a lot of capabilities on diesel engine production and also did not invest on it after the fall of Soviet union... but it was not getting the diesel engines from them. Zorya Mashproekt in Nikolaev made the naval gas turbine engines and the reduction gears, and Russia should be self sufficient on those now...
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:24 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    PhSt wrote:
    but eventually it will get sorted with Russian engines to do the job

    and when is this going to get sorted out? its been 6 years since Ukraine blocked sale of ship engines to Russia, how much more time does Russia need to develop a working domestic engine? 20 years? 30? by that time the engine they are making will be obsolete

    What has this to do with the Ukraine?

    Yeah Russia  lost a lot of capabilities on diesel engine production and also did not invest on it after the fall of Soviet union... but it was not getting the diesel engines from them. Zorya Mashproekt in Nikolaev made the naval gas turbine engines and the reduction gears, and Russia should be self sufficient on those now...

    It is hard to see what happens .

    To start the production of the new items then first the design has to finalised, second the manufacturing process, the actual plants with tooling, and infally the product has to finalished, tested with the other components and with the ship.


    If a problem require the modification of the desing then the whole chain has to be rolled back.


    C'mon, for the US more than 20 years wasn't enought to make usable F-35 aircrafts, in the original design specification.

    They solved the issue partially by decreasing the perfomrance requirements, and by accepting substandard airframes, and pushing even the kichen sink into the project.


    But in this case there is a ship, that has a narrow set of parameters, and there is not so much room for mistakes.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:48 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:...It is hard to see what happens .

    It's not really

    Instead of getting started on designing local engines the moment sanctions hit they wasted years waiting and hoping that everything will blow over and that Ukrainians, Finns and Germans will for some inexplicable reason start delivering engines again (we can safely say that they were certain of it)

    Why did they go with this approach when it was perfectly clear that nobody will ever give them engines ever again? Answer is simple: they are lazy morons and they couldn't be arsed to do complicated stuff like designing and setting up production of engines from scratch

    They preferred to sit on their asses and hope for the best because, Russia...

    Of course as always time proved them wrong and now they are years behind (see space industry for another example of being proven obviously wrong from the get go)


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    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:04 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:...It is hard to see what happens .

    It's not really

    Instead of getting started on designing local engines the moment sanctions hit they wasted years waiting and hoping that everything will blow over and that Ukrainians, Finns and Germans will for some inexplicable reason start delivering engines again (we can safely say that they were certain of it)

    Why did they go with this approach when it was perfectly clear that nobody will ever give them engines ever again? Answer is simple: they are lazy morons and they couldn't be arsed to do complicated stuff like designing and setting up production of engines from scratch

    They preferred to sit on their asses and hope for the best because, Russia...

    Of course as always time proved them wrong and now they are years behind (see space industry for another example of being proven obviously wrong from the get go)



    Quality fast cheap


    You can choose two  : )

    The Ukrainan crisis throw a wrench into the satelite, icebreaker, BN-800 reactor, miltiary ships, aircrafts and many other countless project.

    They had to prioritise, and most likelly the surface ships received the lowest priority.


    And again, starting a supply chain from the scratch takes time.

    Takes an example the FOGBANK mishaps :
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOGBANK

    From the decision to the first refudbished warhead it took more than 15 years, and they suffered several years of delay.

    And in that case they just restarted a refurbishing line, and they had all previous tooling, documentation and drawing, and the target wasn't to make new warheads, only to refurbish them.

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