Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

Jelena wrote:

soldieroffortune wrote:If I may, - perhaps, Vladimir79 (Grand Marshal) and Jelena (Junior Sergent) should consider moderating some of their own posts in this thread where they wrote about Muslims. Please refer to the reaction by Turk1 to Post#6.

Please mark my posts which you consider to be disturbing.I used statistical data to understand the situation since I really have just a basic knowledge about it.I asked some valid questions and do believe deeply that lies should not be allowed and I don't "pass" on them as a rule.I don't believe that I've been rude to other peoples' religion?!?

Now as it stands any Muslim (even the one who is a priory friendly towards Russia and the Russians) - can read these posts and claim: "Russians are racist, they hate all Muslims!" Also please think of those 20 million of Russian citizens who happen to be Muslims - some of them may also be reading these lines.

Just a friendly comment, written our of concern.

Racism and religion have nothing in common and should not be confused. There are even black Orthodox people in South Africa, no matter how surprisingly that might sound http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/safrica.htm .

Sure, racism has nothing to do with religion, but you know how freely and on purpose people confuse them. One of the most pious Orthodox Christians that I met in my life were from .... South India - their Christianity goes back to St. Thomas (one of Jesus Christ's Apostols who went there to preach). Their Christianity therefore goes back 2,000 years. There are 4 millions of them living in South India, most of the men of that community are called "Thomas" in honor of St. Thomas.

However, often a different race coincides with a different religion, and often it is not so, and for some other ethnic groups religion have changed through their history, - like the Albanians and Chechens who used to be Christians.

soldieroffortune wrote:
This is a serious issue. Sure, there are hardly any ethnic Russians left in Chechna, Ingushetia, Dagestan and the Chechen terrorist kill Chechen OMON, MVD (and vise versa), but lest we forget that hundred of thousands of (Muslim) people from that region live in Moscow and other parts of Russia proper. The people we are talking about are Russian citizens (which is different from the situation with KLA - most of whom were citizens of Albania, not Yugoslavia).

KLA was a mix of several nationalities just like the uprisings in Kavkaz. Chechens in Moskva are not dying. The people fighting these insurgents are Kadyrov and his Chechen goons. Sorry, but I don't shed a tear when he losses one of his men after I spent two years of my life fighting them before they slipped allegiance to the ones they knew were going to win.

As we know from history many Muslims (in particular Chechens) have fought bravely for the greatness of Russia. Most recently they fought in Georgia as a part of the Russian Army against "Orthodox" Georgians who came to South Ossetia to kill another Orthodox people.

Uh huh, the Vostok battalion's leader was assasinated by Kadyrov and these are the same units accused of war crimes.

It all depends on who "stirs" them up, and they surely respect force, - as most people in the East. Thus, lest we forget that, for example, during WWI thousands of them joined the "Savage Division" that became most feared unit of the Russian Army (the Germans didn't take them prisoners, as well as the cossacks). Moreover, unlike the ethnic Russians, they VOLUNTEERED to fight for Russia and the Russian Emperor. Quoting Wikipedia:

Why would I care about WWI when I have spent the best years of my youth sitting in the hills of Chechnya and Dagestan fighting these people? I was only there 10 years ago, you quoting two past governments long gone.

I don't see it as a "black/white" issue - it is much more complicated than that.

There are three kinds of Chechen soldiers, the traitors, the traitors turned Federal, and the Federal Kadyrov sees as traitors. The reality on the ground is a power struggle like a gangland. Those serving are only in it for their own gain and power. They certainly don't do it for love of Mother Russia.

Vladimir79 wrote:

soldieroffortune wrote:
This is a serious issue. Sure, there are hardly any ethnic Russians left in Chechna, Ingushetia, Dagestan and the Chechen terrorist kill Chechen OMON, MVD (and vise versa), but lest we forget that hundred of thousands of (Muslim) people from that region live in Moscow and other parts of Russia proper. The people we are talking about are Russian citizens (which is different from the situation with KLA - most of whom were citizens of Albania, not Yugoslavia).

KLA was a mix of several nationalities just like the uprisings in Kavkaz. Chechens in Moskva are not dying. The people fighting these insurgents are Kadyrov and his Chechen goons. Sorry, but I don't shed a tear when he losses one of his men after I spent two years of my life fighting them before they slipped allegiance to the ones they knew were going to win.

As we know from history many Muslims (in particular Chechens) have fought bravely for the greatness of Russia. Most recently they fought in Georgia as a part of the Russian Army against "Orthodox" Georgians who came to South Ossetia to kill another Orthodox people.

Uh huh, the Vostok battalion's leader was assasinated by Kadyrov and these are the same units accused of war crimes.

It all depends on who "stirs" them up, and they surely respect force, - as most people in the East. Thus, lest we forget that, for example, during WWI thousands of them joined the "Savage Division" that became most feared unit of the Russian Army (the Germans didn't take them prisoners, as well as the cossacks). Moreover, unlike the ethnic Russians, they VOLUNTEERED to fight for Russia and the Russian Emperor. Quoting Wikipedia:

Why would I care about WWI when I have spent the best years of my youth sitting in the hills of Chechnya and Dagestan fighting these people? I was only there 10 years ago, you quoting two past governments long gone.

I don't see it as a "black/white" issue - it is much more complicated than that.

There are three kinds of Chechen soldiers, the traitors, the traitors turned Federal, and the Federal Kadyrov sees as traitors. The reality on the ground is a power struggle like a gangland. Those serving are only in it for their own gain and power. They certainly don't do it for love of Mother Russia.

Then it is going to blow into everybody's face sooner or later. As for WW1 and history in general - history repeats itself. More specifically, during WW1 the Chechens and other Caucasisns were fighting for Russia against the Germans, while during WW2 many of them were fighting along side the Germans against the USSR. Moreover, the Germans even used the Chechens to fight the Yugoslav partizans, etc. Those who were fighting along side the Russians during WW1 were sons and grand sons of those who fought the Russians in the 19th century.

My point is that now Russia cannot afford to fight/have so many enemies at once (with hardly any friends or allies), I mean in real life, not virtual. Including those who live in Russia proper.

You outlined the great plans of modernization of the Russian Army, but I still think they don't guarantee that what happened to Yugoslavia (Serbia/Montenegro) 10 years ago, cannot happen to Russia.

soldieroffortune wrote:

[Then it is going to blow into everybody's face sooner or later.

It has been blowing up for the last 15 years. Until there is an end to this fundamentalist extremism, it will not be over. The only way is by irradicating those that don't accept reality.

As for WW1 and history in general - history repeats itself. More specifically, during WW1 the Chechens and other Caucasisns were fighting for Russia against the Germans, while during WW2 many of them were fighting along side the Germans against the USSR. Moreover, the Germans even used the Chechens to fight the Yugoslav partizans, etc. Those who were fighting along side the Russians during WW1 were sons and grand sons of those who fought the Russians in the 19th century.

We are doing everything we can to make them feel at home. We built them the largest mosque in Europe. We give them regional autonomy. If they had kept there end of the bargain, they would have had their own country until they started bombing apartments. They raped children in Beslan and killed my aunt in the theatre siege and that included many Chechen women. They are not so innocent. Don't even talk to me about Chechens in the Great Patriotic War. Most of them sided with Hitler and Stalin punished them accordingly. We should have left them in Kazhakstan.

My point is that now Russia cannot afford to fight/have so many enemies at once (with hardly any friends or allies), I mean in real life, not virtual. Including those who live in Russia proper.

The enemies are Wahhabi insurgents propped up by foreign entities. Why do you think we let Amerika use our airspace... b/c we want them to win. Once the threat of outside instigation is eliminated, this will be no more than an afterthought.

You outlined the great plans of modernization of the Russian Army, but I still think they don't guarantee that what happened to Yugoslavia (Serbia/Montenegro) 10 years ago, cannot happen to Russia.

You don't see this crap in Tatarstan. We are trying to apply the same principles that made that deal so effective. Once there is no more need for Kadyrov, they can get back to normalisation.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20090817/155829551.html

Eleven dead, 25 wounded in Nazran blast - police
10:1617/08/2009
ROSTOV-ON-DON, August 17 (RIA Novosti) - At least eleven people died and about 25 were wounded on Monday when a powerful bomb blast rocked the center of Nazran, the largest city in the Russian North Caucasus republic, local police said.

According to police, the blast occurred near the city's police headquarters, and may have been caused by a car bomb set off by a suicide bomber.

"At about 09:08 a.m. Moscow time [05:08 GMT] a yellow GAZelle truck broke through a gate at a check point near the building. A powerful explosion followed shortly after that," a local investigator told RIA Novosti.

"The building and cars parked around it are on fire," a police source earlier said.

Russia's mainly Muslim North Caucasus regions have seen a rise in violence in recent months. Attacks on police, officials and troops have been reported almost daily in Ingushetia and neighboring Dagestan that border Chechnya, which saw two separatist wars in the late 1990s-early 2000s.

Ingushetia's construction minister was gunned down in his office last Wednesday; the murder followed the killing of a Supreme Court judge and the attempted assassination of the republic's president, Yunus-Bek Yevkurov, in late June. Last month the Ingush forensic chief was also gunned down.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has called the increased terrorist activity in the Caucasus "an attempt to destabilize the situation in the region."

Medvedev sacks Ingushetia interior minister after suicide attack

ASTRAKHAN, August 17 (RIA Novosti) - Russian President Dmitry Medvedev dismissed Ingushetia’s interior minister on Monday after a suicide attack in the republic’s largest city of Nazran killed at least 20 people.

The attack on the police headquarters early on Monday was the worst in years in the volatile North Caucasus republic. However, the republic has witnessed frequent attacks on federal troops and police of late.

“I believe this [attack] was not only a result of problems connected to terrorist activities, but also a result of the unsatisfactory performance of the republic’s law enforcement agencies,” Medvedev said. He also ordered a probe into the work of the police.

“The terrorist attack could have been prevented,” Medvedev said. “The vehicle used in the attack had been listed as stolen… Police had been warned about an attack being planned. This is totally unacceptable.”

Latest reports say 138 people, including 10 children, were also injured when a suicide bomber rammed a minivan full of explosives into the gates of the police headquarters. The blast, estimated as being equivalent to at least 500 kg of TNT, damaged the police building and nearby blocks of flats.

Earlier reports said 16 victims were in critical condition and were being transported to Moscow.

The explosion left a crater about 4 meters wide and 2 meters deep. The blast triggered more explosions as ammunition detonated in the police headquarters. The blast shattered windows and smashed balconies in residential buildings within a radius of 500 meters. Some 30 cars parked nearby were destroyed, Russian media reported.

Ingushetia’s deputy interior minister said earlier on Monday police had been informed on the planned attack.

“Information on a planned terrorist attack using a yellow Gazelle came to light on Saturday,” Zyaudin Daurbekov said. “Efforts had been made to track the vehicle.” He also said police had opened fire at the suicide bomber, but had been unable to prevent the attack.

“Our police are weak, they can protect neither our people, nor themselves,” Ingushetia’s acting president, Rashid Gaisanov, said earlier on Monday.

Ingushetia and Russia’s other mainly Muslim North Caucasus regions have been swept by violence in recent months. The republic’s president, Yunus-Bek Yevkurov, survived an assassination attempt in June.

The republic's construction minister was gunned down in his office last Wednesday. The murder followed the killing of a Supreme Court judge. Last month, the Ingush forensic chief was also killed.

Human rights groups have often alleged human rights abuses by law enforcement authorities in Ingushetia. Tanya Lokshina, deputy director of Human Rights Watch's Moscow office, claimed in an article in July that heavy-handed actions by the authorities were responsible for driving many young people into the arms of the insurgents.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20090817/155834609.html

Jelena wrote:

Human rights groups have often alleged human rights abuses by law enforcement authorities in Ingushetia. Tanya Lokshina, deputy director of Human Rights Watch's Moscow office, claimed in an article in July that heavy-handed actions by the authorities were responsible for driving many young people into the arms of the insurgents.

Human rights groups have it backwards, we have been lenient in the last couple of years and now attacks are at a peak. It is time for FSB to get in there and start assasinations once again.

Vladimir79 wrote:

Jelena wrote:

Human rights groups have often alleged human rights abuses by law enforcement authorities in Ingushetia. Tanya Lokshina, deputy director of Human Rights Watch's Moscow office, claimed in an article in July that heavy-handed actions by the authorities were responsible for driving many young people into the arms of the insurgents.

Human rights groups have it backwards, we have been lenient in the last couple of years and now attacks are at a peak. It is time for FSB to get in there and start assasinations once again.

FSB will do that I'm sure.

Vladimir79 wrote:

Jelena wrote:

Human rights groups have often alleged human rights abuses by law enforcement authorities in Ingushetia. Tanya Lokshina, deputy director of Human Rights Watch's Moscow office, claimed in an article in July that heavy-handed actions by the authorities were responsible for driving many young people into the arms of the insurgents.

Human rights groups have it backwards, we have been lenient in the last couple of years and now attacks are at a peak. It is time for FSB to get in there and start assasinations once again.

I'm sure you're right, Vladimir. It was in the article so I provided it here completely.Note that usually at the end of articles (not just this one but others as well) are some "additional" paragraphs who are there to confuse average readers.

Jelena wrote:


I'm sure you're right, Vladimir. It was in the article so I provided it here completely.Note that usually at the end of articles (not just this one but others as well) are some "additional" paragraphs who are there to confuse average readers.

No way they are going to confuse us here at this Forum with their articles and addendums, it is clear we are above average and are able to see through.

Admin edit: Read the rules on using the quote feature. No more than two quotes allowed inside per quote box. That was three. Delete that which you do not use.


Done!

soldieroffortune wrote:

No way they are going to confuse us here at this Forum with their articles and addendums, it is clear we are above average and are able to see through.

Thank you for good laugh Anyway, one can be easily confused if not informed well and trying to understand situation from one article.I'm familiar with so called "Human Right Groups" who usually have financiers outside of the country of their activity.

Jelena wrote:

soldieroffortune wrote:

No way they are going to confuse us here at this Forum with their articles and addendums, it is clear we are above average and are able to see through.

Thank you for good laugh Anyway, one can be easily confused if not informed well and trying to understand situation from one article.I'm familiar with so called "Human Right Groups" who usually have financiers outside of the country of their activity.

Tatiana Lokshina, that is quoted in the end of the article, - appears to be the type, I won't be surprised if she also has the American passport (like the late Politkovskaya).

sepheronx wrote:
You know, in any other nation where they have terrorist activity going on in a certain region (like Russia does in the North Caucus), they would have already placed curfews and other such stuff, militarized the area and placed strict rules. All to flush out the terrorists, and to get people to cough up the locations of where these people are. They are not ghosts, they are not invisible, and they obviously know other people as well. FSB in the area would also track down people.

The North Caucus is a problem, and was not during the USSR (and for a damn good reason). Allowing over abundant of free speech (especially when that speech turns to hate speech), especially when done by Islamic religion, should be stricken down and people should be warned. It is because of all these Islamic fundamentalists, problems are arising in the north Caucus and Russia is doing very little to deal with it. It is the lives of their own people at stake, and they are not trying harder.

It seems August is a bad month in Russia. Lots of people died and injured. Not very good for the economy in the country (especially when the largest hydro electric damn in Russia gets damaged). But being Siberia, there is no terrorist activity. So at least it was an error based on the electric company.

Canada had a similar problem with terrorists in the 70's in Quebec, - how was it solved?

sepheronx wrote:


Threats, curfews, and getting people to cough up information.

Also, terrorist activities with the Oka Crisis.....sending in the military.

We do it the right way. Current way Russia is doing it, is the wrong way. They are ignoring the problem pretty much.

You know, Russia is one of my favorite countries. But if they are going to continue to ignore problems and allow these terrorist to do what they want (pretty much), and not bother in trying to do it the quick, cheapest and smartest way in smoking them out, then I feel less sympathy when bad stuff happens. Sometimes, ruling with the Iron fist, is the best way to rule and keep your people in check if they cannot do it themselves.

Well, in Russia Putin's government tried to buy up those terrorists, this approach had some success, but currently it is not working. However, I wouldn't be too tough on Russia that it is not doing the right thing. Russia is not Canada, if Putin only moves his finger to clamp down on the terrorists there will be an outcry (in Russia and abroad) that he "violates Human Rights" and "there's no democracy in Russia", etc.

Does that matter anymore? If it was the case, Russia would not have gone to war with Georgia and a lot other things. Everyone knows that these human right activists are just ignorant blobs with nothing better to do. All Russia has to do is give a verbal warning. And make it a damn good message that will be heard around the world. And if nothing is done, do what you have to. At that point, Activists cannot say anything about it, as it was a warning already.

Many of this activists are paid from the USA, and they are very well organized.

Make sure the world and your people know what is going on and tell the truth. That is the most effective way of dealing with any situation, is tell the truth. Once that message is clear and cutthroat to the public, then go ahead with phase 2 if the terrorist activity does not stop. Just shelling out money to fix the problem is what we call corruption. And what do you do with corrupted individuals? Put them in jail.

It's very hard because Russia doesn't control the world's mass media. For example, last year Georgia invaded South Ossetia, but the world was convinced that it was Russia invaded Georgia.

Edit: Anyway, Russia already has a so-called bad rep with human right activists. Whatever they do now, won't change anything anyway in the general public of the world in how Russia does business. It is Russia, it is their own country. If US does not like how they do business, then they should shut up and mind their own.

It is not so simple I think. If Russia is weak, the "world community" will just start bombing Russia like Yugoslavia 10 years ago.

Edit 2: It just occurred to me. The best way to sort out this mess, is spread the people away from one region. When you have too many people with the same mindset living in one area, you will get problems. If you spread these people around, then not so much. So if these people are not ethnic Russian, move them to other parts of Russia and such. It would make them too spread thin that they would not dare to do anything stupid.

Human rights activists would call this ethnic cleansing. Besides, Stalin had done it already in 1944 relocating Chechens, Ingush, and others to Kazakhstan.

sepheronx wrote:

First off, you are wrong. Russia would not get bombed cause there are better reasons to bomb it in the past then now, and everyone knows if that happens, KABOOM (yah for nuclear missiles). 2) I am not daft. I know who these people are payed by. And who gives a flying crap about what US thinks of Russia? It is within their own country, they do as they like. Look at Saudi Arabia; bad things happen there, but they are allowed to do it. 3) Do you even know what ethnic cleansing is? I am not saying execute these people, I am saying "Move them". If they don't like their life in Russia, move away. If USA owns the world media (which is a term you created for your stupid bs), then there would not have been backlash from the world at the US over Iraq. Did the worldstage bomb USA? No? Then shut it with your crappy conspiracy theories with no backing.

For a 20 years old you are too smart, for you know what is exactly going on, I doubt I can match your wisdom. In this view, I decided not to try so that you have no opportunity to insult me again, using the fact that this is an anonymous way of interaction. Best wishes, and I hope one day you will visit Russia (for real).

sepheronx wrote:

First off, you are wrong. Russia would not get bombed cause there are better reasons to bomb it in the past then now, and everyone knows if that happens, KABOOM (yah for nuclear missiles). 2) I am not daft. I know who these people are payed by. And who gives a flying crap about what US thinks of Russia? It is within their own country, they do as they like. Look at Saudi Arabia; bad things happen there, but they are allowed to do it. 3) Do you even know what ethnic cleansing is? I am not saying execute these people, I am saying "Move them". If they don't like their life in Russia, move away. If USA owns the world media (which is a term you created for your stupid bs), then there would not have been backlash from the world at the US over Iraq. Did the worldstage bomb USA? No? Then shut it with your crappy conspiracy theories with no backing.

May I remind you of your words (I have an excellent memory)

And ladies, I make decent money as it is, and am intelligent as well as nice.

Please, don't disappoint all ladies who might read you here- besides me, of course

soldieroffortune wrote:
For a 20 years old you are too smart, for you know what is exactly going on, I doubt I can match your wisdom. In this view, I decided not to try so that you have no opportunity to insult me again, using the fact that this is an anonymous way of interaction. Best wishes, and I hope one day you will visit Russia (for real).

I am interested to hear what can be done in your opinion, regarding terrorism in Russia after saying what can't be done because of various obstacles. I hope we all agree that something must be changed in approach to that problem?

Jelena wrote:

I am interested to hear what can be done in your opinion, regarding terrorism in Russia after saying what can't be done because of various obstacles. I hope we all agree that something must be changed in approach to that problem?

Corporal Jelena: Thanks for asking, I appreciate your interest and will try to oblige, even though it is a million dollar question and I feel I don't have enough expertise and experience to offer a solution. Anyway, let me try, - here it is:

The problems of Dagestan, Ingushetia, Chechnya, ... are Russia's problems, and as such they cannot be solved by simply killing these people, or relocating them, or building a wall between Russia proper and North Coucases (besides, all of that has been tried before). These problems therefore can be only solved by curing Russia's illnesses, so to say, - first. That is if the state of Russia is strong, the government is concerned with the well-being of its people and there's no corruption, ... the terrorists would not be able to operate, - be it in Moscow or in Nazran ... For example, one of the many Russia's problems is the corrupted police, it is notoriously corrupted, - as can be attested by any motorist in Russia.

Today I've read many comments about this event in the Russian internet: comments to newspaper's articles, blog posts, forums, etc - trying to figure out what the "real" (as opposed to "plastic") Russians think about the tragedy in Nazran. Some of the comments shocked me. For example, several (ethnic) Russians actually praised the terrorists, saying that "those Ingush and Chechen boys really have the balls - they blew up the Police Department, ... I wish in our town somebody would have done the same ..." Some people see it as the war against the corrupted police (!). So you can imagine.

The problems of North Coucases have to be solved in Moscow, - if the government is strong and trusted, there wouldn't be any place for terrorism and if the police (which is now twice as big as the Army) and FSB function properly, - they would be able to prevent terrorist acts, whether they are organized locally or abroad. I've been vocal on the subject already, but let me repeat, - somehow the Russian Empire managed to solve this problem by the late 19th century, - at least judging by how bravely the Chechens and others fought for Russia in WW1. However, with all due respect, Putin is not Alexander II and Medvedev is far from Alexander III (not only because Alexander II and III were much taller). We've been reading a lot about how strong Putin is and how well Putin and Medvedev work together, ... I think it's the time to see some results.

For now the Russian government "solved" the problems of North Caucasus, by letting the local corrupted "kings" and "warlords" to run the show and pretending that nothing is going on. It can "work" only up to a certain point. Clearly, this point has been reached. How can it go on for much longer if everybody knows that Ramazan Kadyrov is one of the richest men in Russia?

I hope I've answered your question.


NB.: Do you know what "CA" on your epaulet mean?

soldieroffortune wrote:

I hope I've answered your question.

Thank you very much for your answer, I'll take my time to think about it.

NB.: Do you know what "CA" on your epaulet mean?

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