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    Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV)

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:22 pm

    All I'm saying is they could take the Eurcopters' proven design, and add the Kamov's coaxial rotors, and also add the coaxial counter propellers seen on the Tu-95's, maybe with the difference of having the propellers attached to the ends of the rear tail wing, and have two additional wings in the front with weapon pylons.

    What eurocopter proven design... they put two turboprop engines on the wing tips of a helicopter... 50 years ago Mil put four jet engines on the wing tips of a helicopter too it is hardly new ground breaking stuff...

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    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:26 pm

    dino00 wrote:In JSC "Kamov" have developed a project synccopter, which can accelerate to 420 km / h

    Formed a general view and layout, as well as calculated aircraft performance characteristics of the aircraft, according to the developer’s presentation

    MOSCOW, April 24th. / Tass /. Kamov JSC (part of the Russian Helicopters holding) has developed a conceptual design of a prospective high-speed helicopter of a synchroter (or synchroopter) scheme with two main and one pusher propellers. The maximum design speed of the car reaches 420 km / h, follows from the presentation of the developer, a copy of which is available to TASS.

    A synccopter is a helicopter, in which two screws are mounted at a short distance from each other and rotate in opposite directions, while the trajectories of their blades intersect, the screws rotate "overlap". In order for the blades not to collide, their rotation is mechanically synchronized.

    The simulation showed the advantage of such a scheme - the efficiency is higher by 4% compared to the single and coaxial schemes, there is no disruption of the air flow from the screws, which occurs at high speeds. It is because of this effect that the helicopters of the classical schemes have reached their speed limit. Also, to increase the speed in the tail, a pushing screw was installed, the blades received tips of a special form, and their speed of rotation was reduced from 220 to 180 m / s.

    According to the presentation materials, the design result was a high-speed passenger helicopter with the following characteristics: take-off weight of 6500 kg, payload mass of 1000 kg, cruising speed of 357 km / h, maximum speed of 420 km / h, static ceiling of 4700 m, dynamic ceiling of 5600 m, range of 1228 km.

    More
    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6368633

    Kamov don't throw the towel attack

    Like this?

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    hoom

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    Post  hoom on Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:24 am

    Yes thats how I interpret that wording.
    Pretty interesting.

    That layout was used in some of the earliest helicopters, always seemed super counter-intuitive & dangerous to me -> evolution away from that to the 'conventional' single rotor plus tail rotor.

    But when you get your head around how they actually work mechanically it gives the advantages of contra-rotors while keeping large separation between the blades.
    Normal contra-rotors get a compression pulse when the blades pass over each other but with this layout they never really actually cross.
    Limits the number of blades though.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:40 am

    Eliminates the need for a serious gearbox like a contrarotating mechanism, but I would suspect it would also influence flight performance like the ability to yaw the nose... with a tail rotor the tail rotor is only effective at low flight speeds because it is relatively small and at higher speeds the wind induced aerodynamic forces are fairly strong.

    With coaxial rotor layouts the momentum force of an entire set of main rotors (two sets, one going each way of course) means rudder turns or yawing can be performed over a much wider range of speeds forward backward or sideways...

    With this arrangement, I am guessing that is what the large tail structure is for which suggests yaw control would be most effective at reasonable forward speeds.
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    Post  hoom on Tue May 14, 2019 8:26 am

    Not sure where he got it but Charly015 appears to have a pic of the proposed config http://charly015.blogspot.com/2019/05/kamov-de-alta-velocidad.html
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    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:52 pm

    The "Kamov" announced a way to disperse the helicopter to 600 km / h

    In Russia, they found a way to increase the speed of a combat helicopter to 600 km / h. This was reported by TASS with reference to the leadership of JSC Kamov.

    Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV) - Page 5 1567084905_jekrana-2019-08-29-v-16_20_00

    The general designer of Kamov JSC Sergey Mikheev claims that his company managed to find a solution with which it is possible to increase the speed of a combat helicopter to 600 km / h. Mikheev reported this to reporters as part of the International Aviation and Space Salon MAKS-2019.

    The general designer of the design bureau notes that at the moment "we are behind the requirements that exist." The designer mentioned Boeing, which together with Sikorsky Corporation creates a promising car at a speed of 480-550 km / h. According to Sergei Mikheev, Russian programs do not yet have such indicators. However, he claims that a solution was found at Kamov.

    I managed to find a solution, I patented it that a combat helicopter can fly at a speed of more than 600 km / h.

    - quotes his words "Interfax".

    The main promising Russian helicopter is not developed by Kamova Design Bureau

    At present, in Russia, the development of a promising high-speed helicopter is being carried out by Milia Design Bureau. The Kamova design bureau, known for its active use of coaxial circuits in helicopter engines, has also developed its own version of a promising machine, but the Ministry of Defense is the main project of a competing bureau.

    The draft design of “Kamov” was a “syncopter” with two main and one thrust propeller. Its estimated speed was to reach 420 km / h. The design bureau is currently developing a new generation Lamprey marine helicopter.

    Russian perspective helicopter on the way

    A promising helicopter, which is currently being developed in the interests of the Russian Aerospace Forces, should go into production in 2022. About this when he was commander in chief of the Aerospace Forces of the Russian Federation, Viktor Bondarev reported. Initially, it was assumed that a civilian version of the machine would be developed, but it turned out to be too expensive for commercial operation, so all the developments were transferred to the military.

    At the moment, several countries are developing promising high-speed helicopters, since the maximum speed of modern rotary-wing aircraft usually does not exceed 300-350 km / h. At the moment, there is an extremely small number of cars that can overcome the bar of 400 km / h: these are S-97 Raider in the USA and Eurocopter X3 in Europe.

    https://topwar.ru/161854-v-kamove-zajavili-o-sposobe-razognat-vertolet-do-600-km-ch.html

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:19 am

    Hang on, if you read the actual article that does not have that Kaman american helicopter photo with it here:

    https://tass.com/defense/1075552

    They are talking about different things.... the syncrocopter design they talked about they said this:

    Earlier, Kamov came up with a sketch design of a synchro-copter with two lifting airscrews and one propeller. According to a presentation, the machine’s estimated speed is 420 kilometers per hour.

    But he also talks about a helicopter design that will allow flight up to 600km/h but he does not mention what rotor arrangement it uses... and being Kamov it could be a coaxial or a conventional for all we know.

    The article also mentions this:

    In May 2018, the chief of the holding company Helicopters of Russia, Andrei Boginsky, said the civilian version of a new generation high-speed helicopter turned out too costly for commercial use, so all the research and development the Industry and Trade Ministry had funded would be used in the next configuration meant for the military.

    Which is no great surprise... tilt rotor designs will have the same issue with costs that make them not viable for commercial development too.
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    Post  BenVaserlan on Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:00 pm

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:20 am

    Sorry dude, no offense but it sounds like the guy making the video is working things out and learning things as he goes... not sure whether it is you or not...

    Pusher propellers are not new... Autogyros have them as standard propulsion with a free spinning rotor for lift which limits them to relatively low speeds but if the main rotor can be spun up via the engine they can have very short take off and landing runs.

    The aircraft competing with the Apache had a pusher propeller too I seem to recall and plenty of Kamov and Mil designs have had a bit of variety in rotor arrangements too.

    Just the first minute of the video... a glance at the basic design of this aircraft suggests that it will likely use turbofan engines to power the main rotors for take off and landing but for normal flight the main rotor blades will be feathered (ie set for minimum drag and generate very little lift) and the aircraft will basically fly with the two jet engines and the wings for lift like a normal plane... much easier and safer than a tilt rotor and with the speed of a plane rather than a helicopter... so capable of well beyond 500km/h limit for super fast helo designs.

    This seems to me to be a jet airplane with an autogyro attached to allow vertical takeoff and landing... very clever and removes the problems of needing to rotate large rotor blades like on a tilt rotor... it would still need a complex gearbox to power each rotor independently so if one engine fails the other engine can run both rotors, but Kamov have an excellent history of fantastic gearbox technology... if anyone can make it work it would be them.
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    Post  william.boutros on Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:48 am

    GarryB wrote:Sorry dude, no offense but it sounds like the guy making the video is working things out and learning things as he goes... not sure whether it is you or not...

    Pusher propellers are not new... Autogyros have them as standard propulsion with a free spinning rotor for lift which limits them to relatively low speeds but if the main rotor can be spun up via the engine they can have very short take off and landing runs.

    The aircraft competing with the Apache had a pusher propeller too I seem to recall and plenty of Kamov and Mil designs have had a bit of variety in rotor arrangements too.

    Just the first minute of the video... a glance at the basic design of this aircraft suggests that it will likely use turbofan engines to power the main rotors for take off and landing but for normal flight the main rotor blades will be feathered (ie set for minimum drag and generate very little lift) and the aircraft will basically fly with the two jet engines and the wings for lift like a normal plane... much easier and safer than a tilt rotor and with the speed of a plane rather than a helicopter... so capable of well beyond 500km/h limit for super fast helo designs.

    This seems to me to be a jet airplane with an autogyro attached to allow vertical takeoff and landing... very clever and removes the problems of needing to rotate large rotor blades like on a tilt rotor... it would still need a complex gearbox to power each rotor independently so if one engine fails the other engine can run both rotors, but Kamov have an excellent history of fantastic gearbox technology... if anyone can make it work it would be them.

    Good analysis
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS on Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:02 am

    Just wow  Cool

    Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV) - Page 5 4XgTElDDj3s

    https://vk.com/milinfolive?w=wall-123538639_1501686&z=photo-123538639_457468447%2Falbum-123538639_00%2Frev

    Hope they are allowed to develop this. I remember some time ago they said they were going to develop a high speed helicopter based on the Ka-52, but this would be better than my wildest dreams Very Happy

    I guess this follows the same concept of jet-propelled helo that they leaked before, but using the Ka-52 as a base for a possible demonstrator.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:16 am


    Not happening, they already decided on setup with intermeshing rotors and pusher propeller for new helicopter

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:06 am

    The helicopter with speeds above 600km/h is not the intermesh design... they didn't say what design it used... and they are working on electric drive rotor designs so it could be almost anything.

    For all we know they might change the design... for instance a coaxial design but with the lower sets of blades with 8 blades that are shorter than the upper blades, while the upper set of blades could have the usual 4 blades which all free spin in normal horizontal flight and can be used for takeoff and landing vertically...
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:21 am

    GarryB wrote:...... and they are working on electric drive rotor designs so it could be almost anything.

    For all we know they might change the design...

    For all we know they might use anti gravity drive powered by miniature black and armed with mass driver

    Meanwhile in the real real world Ka-52 is still Cold War era design which is pushing 40s and they already decided on intermeshing rotors with pusher propeller for new helicopter




    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:59 am

    The author of the article thinks a syncopter is not coaxial like previous Kamov helicopters, and it is not conventional so the only remaining design he knows of is the Kaman synchromesh design... and he is wrong.

    When they call it a Syncopter they are trying to avoid suggesting it is a coaxial design with a pusher propeller... All models of their next helicopter, the Lamprey, show it to be a standard coaxial with a pusher propeller and there is no suggestion... other than the above article... that it will be anything else... and BTW the american projects mentioned also use coaxial designs with pusher propellers too which might be brand new and state of the art for the west but Kamov have been doing that successfully for more than 60 years.
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    Post  owais.usmani on Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:47 pm

    LMFS wrote:Just wow  Cool

    Promising high-speed helicopter (PSV) - Page 5 4XgTElDDj3s

    https://vk.com/milinfolive?w=wall-123538639_1501686&z=photo-123538639_457468447%2Falbum-123538639_00%2Frev

    Hope they are allowed to develop this. I remember some time ago they said they were going to develop a high speed helicopter based on the Ka-52, but this would be better than my wildest dreams Very Happy

    I guess this follows the same concept of jet-propelled helo that they leaked before, but using the Ka-52 as a base for a possible demonstrator.

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    Post  LMFS on Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:28 pm

    @owais.usmani:

    we know the SB-1, care explaining what is the message you try to convey?
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    Post  owais.usmani on Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:13 pm

    LMFS wrote:@owais.usmani:

    we know the SB-1, care explaining what is the message you try to convey?

    Why so cranky? I just posted video of a similar looking project of US, not every body here would be as knowledgeable as you and seen it before.
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    Post  LMFS on Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:13 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:Why so cranky? I just posted video of a similar looking project of US, not every body here would be as knowledgeable as you and seen it before.

    Ok, no offence intended mate, it was just an honest question. English is not my native language, I may not have used the best wording angel
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:35 am

    I would hope it can go faster than 200KNTs... that isn't that fast... Hokums already go about 190knts max...

    The Ah-56 could do 212 knots...
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:22 am

    PapaDragon wrote:For all we know they might use anti gravity drive powered by miniature black and armed with mass driver

     Shocked

    I have a mental image of some "vertically challenged" "person of colour" madly turning a crankshaft...  Not sure if this will fly (pun intended) in these times of BLM radicalism...  Laughing
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:20 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:I have a mental image of some "vertically challenged" "person of colour" madly turning a crankshaft...  Not sure if this will fly (pun intended) in these times of BLM radicalism...  Laughing

    You'll probably end up with a lynch mob in front of your house these days

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