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    Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:48 am

    Yup, I know.

    This is not a topic that would move very much as information on Russian and Soviet AAMs is not so easy to come by.
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    Post  Arrow on Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:17 pm

    Can the R-37M intercept high maneuvering targets over long distances?
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    Post  dino00 on Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:59 pm

    Arrow wrote:Can the R-37M intercept high maneuvering targets over long distances?

    The export downgraded version 200km 8g, so yes.
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    Post  LMFS on Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:51 pm

    dino00 wrote:The export downgraded version 200km 8g, so yes.
    Enough against any naval fighter and most conventional ones if you consider flight normal flight altitudes. But with 60 kg warhead it is not like you need an absolute direct hit...
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    Post  dino00 on Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:47 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    dino00 wrote:The export downgraded version 200km 8g, so yes.
    Enough against any naval fighter and most conventional ones if you consider flight normal flight altitudes. But with 60 kg warhead it is not like you need an absolute direct hit...

    I agree, I just said that the export version is capable to destroy a fighter at long ranges, so the Russian version is even better, that's my answear to Arrow question
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 am

    dino00 wrote:I agree, I just said that the export version is capable to destroy a fighter at long ranges, so the Russian version is even better, that's my answear to Arrow question
    Sure, was just corroborating that such performance is more than enough as I see it.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:54 am

    The missile will use a lofted trajectory for long range attacks and therefore will be diving steeply on the target, probably at speeds of mach 4-6, so if you think of a target that point on would be the size of a dinner plate that covers ground so quick that one second before impact it will be about 1km away and the next second it will be blowing past your aircraft so fast your eye could probably not follow it, with an explosive on board designed to damage rather large much stronger aircraft than the one you are in...

    It is primarily intended to shoot down large aircraft like bombers and AWACS or JSTARS or inflight refuelling tankers or indeed troop transports, as they would be much easier to detect and track, but its active radar homing system should detect most targets from an almost vertical dive onto them and its ability to turn allows it to hit a manouvering target.

    As mentioned it can hit targets pulling 8 gs, but they have to be the right gs.

    If you can imagine an R-73 is launched at a target to the left of the launch aircraft...that is coming towards the launch aircraft and is going past... so the target is flying straight and level but to intercept the target the missile is no launched directly at the target so the first thing it has to do is turn hard to its left to turn around towards the target and continue to turn past the target because it makes no sense to fly at the target, because the target is moving... so the missile has to keep turning left till it is heading for a point in space in front of the target... the distance is determined by the speed of the target and the speed of the missile so they both get to the same place at the same time.

    If the target detects the missile launch and the target pilot realises the missile is having to turn hard... instead of keeping on flying level and straight... he can make the job of the missile much much harder by turning in to the missile so it has to turn even harder to its left.

    Now if the two aircraft were ten kms apart and the missile was fired at roughly where the interception point is then the target could turn in any direction and the missile could out turn it, because the R-73 can out turn a 12 g target, so it can turn really hard in any direction.

    If it is already turning really hard then its ability to outturn the target is greatly reduced so even a 4g turn by the target might make the missile miss on the first pass... and the R-73 does not have a 180 degree field of view so once it is out turned and goes past the target it can't turn around and reacquire the target... if it could then there is a chance in this scenario that the target might have turned around behind the launch aircraft and the missile locks on to the aircraft that launched it.

    An R-37M falling from a great height at very high speed with a large wide angle seeker with a good long detection range (I think I read up to 50km for that missile seeker) means the missile should be easily able to centre the target in its field of view and steer to a point in front of the target as an interception point and then accelerate down towards it... able to adjust its flight path fairly easily and quickly if needed.

    The fact that it is designed to hit 8g targets means it is designed to hit fighters as well as big heavy targets... a B-52 would break apart and crash trying to pull 3 gs, let alone 8.

    Of course there is nothing in existence that could be called a Hittile... they are all Missiles... so their chance against a fighter sized aircraft would be OK but not amazing... probably 40-50 percent PK, rising to 80-90 for big non manouvering aircraft... especially ones like troop transports and tankers and JSTARs and even AWACs that probably wont even see them coming till it is too late.
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    Post  dino00 on Tue May 28, 2019 11:26 pm

    “Old men” go into battle: fighters will arm missiles for duels

    The superiority of Russian aircraft in the air will provide upgraded R-27


    R-27 air-to-air missiles will be given a second life. This munition was developed for the destruction of manned aircraft in a maneuverable battle, and today is much outdated. Therefore, the rocket has recently been modified using modern technology, becoming a universal medium-range precision weapon. Now the R-27 is capable of hitting complex targets, including cruise missiles, drones and fifth-generation aircraft. Its use will provide Russian fighters with superiority in duel battles, experts are sure.

    The first serial batch of upgraded missiles will go into service with the Aerospace Forces by the end of this year, several sources told the Izvestia news source in the Ministry of Defense. The first samples of the upgraded missiles were tested during an operation in Syria on Su-30SM and Su-35 fighters. The main modern aircraft carrier R-27 will be these winged cars. They can also be used on the Su-27, Su-33, Su-34 and MiG-29, the interlocutors in the military department said.

    Once, the R-27 was significantly ahead of its time, the former commander of the 4th Army of the Air Force and Air Defense, Hero of Russia, Lieutenant-General Valery Gorbenko, told Izvestia. That is why the rocket is still in service.

    - It has good potential, the rocket has a successful design, the warhead works reliably. The homing head can be modified to meet modern technologies, which will significantly improve the accuracy. And after increasing the energy intensity of the launch, the rocket will become longer-range, says Valery Gorbenko.

    The rocket will receive an updated control system and guidance. Modern electronics greatly facilitates aiming, which allows the pilot to pay more attention to piloting the aircraft. Guidance is performed automatically by radio emission. There is also a semi-automatic mode - in this case, the pilot will mark the target.

    In addition, a new fuel charge has been developed for the rocket, which will give the munition an increased energy potential. The upgraded R-27 will be able to shoot down cruise missiles and fifth-generation aircraft.

    The missiles of the R-27P and R-27R series will also be upgraded - they are designed to hit air targets at any time of the day or night in adverse weather conditions. They can also be used during air combat, when the enemy’s aircraft maneuvers and puts up active interference to the radar, thereby covering up its actions. The R-27R is a medium-range missile with an inertial-type control system. The guidance system includes a semi-active radar unit that is activated at the finish of the flight.

    The homing head R-27P1 includes a combination of active radar and inertial correction system. These nodes are activated alternately depending on the phase of flight. The target designation of the missile receives from the radars of the carrier aircraft or ground-based radar. The control system operates according to the “let-forget” principle, ensuring the information secrecy of the attack.

    The length of the rockets exceeds 4700 mm, the starting weight is up to 350 kg, they are equipped with a solid-fuel engine and a high-explosive warhead with 39 kg of explosive. The maximum launch range is 110 km.

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    https://iz.ru/882783/aleksei-kozachenko-aleksei-ramm/v-boi-idut-stariki-istrebiteli-vooruzhat-raketami-dlia-duelei
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:29 am

    Pretty big news...

    State machine-building design Bureau "Vympel im. I. I. Toropova" signed the state contract for manufacture and supply of "Izd 180".

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6601330

    Izd. 180 = K-77M / R-77M

    The R-77M-PD version was reportedly aimed to have max range of 200km
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:18 am

    I would expect work on the ramjet powered model was probably stopped and changed for work on a scramjet powered model... would be capable of much higher speeds and much greater ranges.

    I remember they mentioned they had stopped work on the ramjet model to complete the improved rocket longer ranged missile and I suspect this is that.

    I suspect they changed from working on a ramjet model, which would have similar speed to a rocket powered missile but rather better range and powered all the way flight, to a scramjet model which potentially could be twice as fast with much greater range due to it also being powered throughout its flight.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:55 am

    The PD variant is probably still in development...the most interesting part about the R-77M is that it's suppose to have an AESA radar seeker. I remember reading about it a while back that it would be difficult to shake off once a lock is achieved....the standard evasive maneuvers apparently wont work
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:43 pm

    Yes, but the PD variant has an air breathing ramjet motor... I suspect they will adapt their requirements and instead of making a ramjet model, a scramjet model would achieve rather better performance for a similar development effort as a ramjet.
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    Post  Isos on Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:20 pm

    More pics of r-74M here 

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1148272492697571328

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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:50 pm

    Isos wrote:More pics of r-74M here 

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1148272492697571328

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    George1
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    Post  George1 on Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:20 pm

    For the first time in public, the new rocket was presented at the ARMY-2018 forum.



    More photos

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3700881.html
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    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:03 am

    More info on the Izd. 180 / K-77M...sounds pretty formidable Cool

    Russian Air-to-Air missiles - Page 10 1378015

    In the framework of military-technical forum "Army-2019" design Bureau "Vympel" demonstrated its new development – a missile "air-air" which exceeds in its parameters the existing missiles of this class.

    "Product 180" is a new missile received index K-77M, which will be initially installed on su-57, and in the future may go for export abroad.

    And though the rocket received index K-77M, but it has nothing to do with the missile K-77. The rocket is produced with a new aerodynamic scheme with X-shaped wings that reduces drag and as a consequence increased range.

    Rocket in addition to the main wing (2 in diagram below) also added a stationary aerodynamic surface (4) before "driving" (3), which allowed to solve the main problem of all long-range missiles "air-air", namely the ability to maneuver at subsonic speeds. For example, the famous American missile AIM-120 and its recent modernization the AIM-120D have not been able to maneuver at speeds of less than 1200 km/h (while trying to maneuver increased angle of attack, and the rocket began to disintegrate.)

    Russian Air-to-Air missiles - Page 10 Scale_2400%20%2836%29


    Also the missile is equipped with a double-pulse solid-propellant engine, which allowes  high-altitude maneuvering and enables a range of up to 192 kilometers.

    In addition, the missile is equipped with inertial navigation system and active radar homing head.

    All these changes make the new missile K-77M a truly unique and a real formidable weapon.

    Experts pay attention that apparently the Russian defense Ministry are very serious about the project su-57 and to develop this fighter is really unique weapons that have no analogues in the world. We already know that the su-57 would be installed a shorter version of hypersonic missile "Kinzhal" gliding cluster bomb "Drel", and now the missile K-77M. All of these types of weapons created recently and is unique in its characteristics.

    https://vladimir-krm.livejournal.com/5950713.html
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:39 pm

    I highly doubt it will have the same size as r-77 but with double range. More likely it will be something like the last on your picture.

    Too bad they didn't go for a scramjet version to create a new era for missiles.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:10 pm

    Isos wrote:I highly doubt it will have the same size as r-77 but with double range. More likely it will be something like the last on your picture.

    Too bad they didn't go for a scramjet version to create a new era for missiles.

    Zircon's development cycle isn't complete yet. After it's finished you'll see a 'modernization.'
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:22 am

    They haven't said anything about scramjet versions of AAMs, but what they have said is that they want long range missiles, and that the two options they had were an improved rocket motor mode, and a ramjet powered model.

    They have said they cancelled the ramjet project and focussed on the improved rocket motor version because it was a quicker and easier solution to the problem of getting a longer range medium AAM into production and service.

    But the enormous potential of scramjets suggests to me they likely cancelled the ramjet design but change to a scramjet design with much higher speed and also therefore range, but as mentioned it will take longer than the improved rocket propelled model or the now cancelled ramjet model to develop and put into service... being powered it could turn 180 degrees without becoming a dud...
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    Post  Isos on Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:49 pm

    Range is not important if your missile can't manoeuvre at max range. That was proven when pakistani and US fighters used them at max range against indian MKI and iraqi mig-25.

    Ramjet/scramjet makes it more dangerous at long range. And russia has a long experience of making them. It is weired they never finished the r-77 ramjet version.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:52 am

    These missiles will be moving at mach 5... this is not something you can dodge like they do in the movies and even if you could at the last seconds of interception the proximity fuse means it can miss the target by several metres and still achieve a kill.

    Ramjet/scramjet makes it more dangerous at long range.

    Is there any combat experience/data that actually shows that to be the case?

    On paper, I agree that with a working engine the missile will be able to manouver much better than a rocket powered missile whose fuel burnt out and is not coasting... but having an engine running does not allow a higher g turn, it just means when you pull a high g turn you lose less speed because you are still being pushed forward by the engine... so a high g turn at the last second of the intercept means both would likely miss... the question is, will that powered missile have the energy to do a full 180 degree turn and come around again and have another go at the target... but at the air speed these missiles are moving at a 180 degree turn might take an enormous volume of airspace... the SR-71 spy plane when flying at mach 3.2 couldn't turn 180 degrees and stay inside the airspace of the state of California... by the time it had turned around and headed back will the target still be there... and if it has dodged the missile once... is it not possible that it might dodge it again?

    And russia has a long experience of making them. It is weired they never finished the r-77 ramjet version.

    Not weird at all... perfectly logical.

    If they are making catapults for aircraft carriers right now they will make EMALS cats because any catapult system will be expensive and time consuming to develop so you might as well spend that money developing the new system rather than an old one.

    With missiles it is the same... across the board the Russians have been consistent in their weapons development programme... first upgrade existing tech as far as you can, and then introduce new generation tech... potentially upgrading the old with basic new tech for the new, but the new tech is a generational improvement compared with the upgraded old stuff which is an improvement but not a generational one.

    Examples are the T-90 and the Armata T-14... the upgrades to the T-90 improve the fleet performance fast and can be applied to older models like T-72 and T-80 upgrades, while the generational improvements go to the Armata, Kurganets, Boomerang, and Typhoon vehicle families for the future.

    In aircraft there are the MiG-35 and Su-35 upgrades, and the Su-57 new generation.

    In their air to air missiles they had two upgrades for the R-77 ARH missile... one was a ramjet powered model and one was an improved rocket motor model... and they have said that the rocket motor option was quicker and easier and achieved the required performance so they decided to close down the R-77 ramjet upgrade programme and just focus on the R-77 improved rocket motor programme because they could get it into service quicker and easier.

    I would also suspect that time spent on the ramjet model would be largely wasted as as soon as it is ready it will be eclipsed by the replacement missile that will be adopted to replace the R-77 family that will likely be a scramjet powered missile of much better performance... likely with twice the flight speed of the ramjet or improved rocket model and therefore much better speed and range performance... and not hugely more complex in terms of development.... the new missile could start as a ramjet and be upgraded to a scramjet as the new motor technologies are improved and perfected...
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    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:51 am

    The repeat what I wrote in my older post above, sounds like the R-77M is formidable AAM

    Active radar seeker with an active phased array antenna 9B-1103М2.

    The illustrations show the layout of the GOS exhibited at the exhibition MAKS-2019 and the booklet given by "Agate".
    Russian Air-to-Air missiles - Page 10 TbAouXAPmBc
    Russian Air-to-Air missiles - Page 10 R82PdCe_0Gg

    The latest development of JSC "mnii Agat"

    is Designed primarily for advanced missiles "air-air" medium-range missiles, in particular, for the R-77M.

    Serial production of the missile already starts, in accordance with the contract signed, the Ministry of defense during the forum Army-2019.

    According to the developers, the GOS is also suitable for rockets of class "air-surface".

    Having an antenna diameter of only 100 mm, seeker can detect targets with

    RCS of 0.003 sq. m at a distance of over 2 km
    with RCS of 0.1 sq m (rocket "air-Air" or stealth fighter) - 5 km
    with RCS of 5 sq m (conventional fighter) - more than 12 km  

    Available frequency bands of operation - Ki and Ka.

    Weight of GOS is noticeably smaller than its predecessor 9B-1103М (for missiles R-77-1 and RVV-SD) - weight 3.5 kg vs 5.7 kg, 230 mm length 300 mm and diameter 100 mm vs. 150 mm, with comparable characteristics.

    However, the main feature of GOS is electronic beam steering antennas and, as a consequence, much more rapid scanning of the airspace in comparison to all predecessors that will be surely helpful for the tasks of missile defense of the carrier, and also in conditions of active electronic countermeasures by the enemy. In creating the AESA seeker for this was also attended by Fazotron-NIIR and NIIP Tikhomirov.


    Text and photos: encyclopedia of Military Aircraft

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    Post  Austin on Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:17 pm

    Isos wrote:More pics of r-74M here 

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1148272492697571328

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    What is R-74M ? Any specs ? Thank You
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    Post  Hole on Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:41 pm

    Continuation of the R-73. New seeker.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:11 pm

    And longer range 40km compare to 30 for r73. IIIR seeker. And more off boresight angle.

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