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    Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Hole
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    Post  Hole Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:33 pm

    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 15 Ez-41t10
    Sosna on top of Bumerang

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:54 pm

    Sosna AND 1l122 L-band radar which has a range of 80km against planes.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:00 am

    This is going to be important.

    The protection level is actually rather good, but the mobility and low cost operation of a wheeled vehicle is something that is important too, and the reason for the delay of the introduction is to extend the missile range to 20km or so from the original range of 10km is going to make this a rather potent missile system.

    It uses laser beam riding guidance so DIRCMS are not effective, it has very high missile speed so re-engagement time is very good, and while it clearly sports a radar it can operate just fine without it.

    The radar means it can see targets and pass that target information to other platforms to detect and engage optically, with rather cheap missiles that don't have expensive bits like IIR seekers or ARH seekers and the chassis, unlike the wheeled BTR, has a rear ramp door and rear mounted troop compartment that could be filled with stacked replacement missiles.

    It could be complimented with a version with a turret with a 30mm cannon and a version with the 2S38 57mm air defence cannon too.

    An excellent convoy support and air defence vehicle that is cheap to use and cheap to operate... with a vehicle with the BTR-82A turret with a single 30mm cannon with air burst ammo they would be ideal for dealing with drone threats too.... tiny short range drones with 30mm cannon and high flying larger drones with stand off weapons with these Pine missiles....
    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:37 pm

    That Bumerang can hold so many Sosna rounds inside. The driver and gunner-operator better have their P90X and protein shakes ready, because they are going to need it.
    GarryB wrote:
    It uses laser beam riding guidance so DIRCMS are not effective, it has very high missile speed so re-engagement time is very good, and while it clearly sports a radar it can operate just fine without it.
    There's a actually an antenna just above the optronics to guide the missile to the beginning of its trajectory after launch and prior to shedding the first stage. After which it switches over to the laser beam riding guidance.

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    Post  Hole Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:47 pm

    They could turn the missiles into a six-pack and give the vehicle a small crane.

    The missiles of the Sosna system are small, but the new missile for Pantsir are even smaller. A dedicated air defence system equipped with that missile would be nice, even a Tigr-M could carry a decent number of them. The fire control radar is a different story, but... Why not?
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    Post  Isos Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:15 am

    Hole wrote:They could turn the missiles into a six-pack and give the vehicle a small crane.

    The missiles of the Sosna system are small, but the new missile for Pantsir are even smaller. A dedicated air defence system equipped with that missile would be nice, even a Tigr-M could carry a decent number of them. The fire control radar is a different story, but... Why not?

    I don't get what you mean. Are you suggesting a realoading system ?

    They have a weight of 38kg. Easily realodable by the crew in 10-15 minutes with hands.

    And what do you mean by a "dedicated AD system", it's already the case.

    And there is no fire control radar. They are controled by laser and can can work with a camera instead of a radar for detection/tracking.

    Tigr M is too small for this. Pantsir on a big truck is already hard to drive, let alone a small vehicle in the same configuration. The turret elevates the gravity center making the vehicle unstable. In offroad it will lead to accidents.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:29 am

    There's a actually an antenna just above the optronics to guide the missile to the beginning of its trajectory after launch and prior to shedding the first stage. After which it switches over to the laser beam riding guidance.

    Like Radio command guidance... like Falanga and Shturm and Ataka missiles?

    The missiles of the Sosna system are small, but the new missile for Pantsir are even smaller.

    Sosna missiles are not huge, about 40kgs each for the current models and I would expect the extended range 20km versions will likely be heavier... perhaps double the weight, so two to three guys to reload at least... the vehicle is designed to have three man crew for the vehicle and I would expect they could arrange the rear troop area to stack reloads so that there is space for perhaps a couple of soldiers to sit to reload and perhaps operate anti drone "rifles".

    The Pantsir missiles are designed to fit into a normal standard tube with four missiles in one tube... and I think they are full length but thinner so they probably are not lighter than standard missiles at all.

    A dedicated air defence system equipped with that missile would be nice, even a Tigr-M could carry a decent number of them. The fire control radar is a different story, but... Why not?

    Personally I would like to see a vehicle that can carry a variety of missiles that can use the onboard radar and optronics to find small difficult targets and destroy them easily and cheaply.

    Tigr M is too small for this. Pantsir on a big truck is already hard to drive, let alone a small vehicle in the same configuration. The turret elevates the gravity center making the vehicle unstable. In offroad it will lead to accidents.


    The Boomerang has the advantage of being cheap and simple to operate and have enough internal space for extra missiles and a proper crew and people to reload the missiles who could provide extra defence from suicide drones when not reloading the tubes.
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    Post  Hole Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:15 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Hole wrote:They could turn the missiles into a six-pack and give the vehicle a small crane.

    The missiles of the Sosna system are small, but the new missile for Pantsir are even smaller. A dedicated air defence system equipped with that missile would be nice, even a Tigr-M could carry a decent number of them. The fire control radar is a different story, but... Why not?

    I don't get what you mean. Are you suggesting a realoading system ?

    They have a weight of 38kg. Easily realodable by the crew in 10-15 minutes with hands.

    And what do you mean by a "dedicated AD system", it's already the case.

    And there is no fire control radar. They are controled by laser and can can work with a camera instead of a radar for detection/tracking.

    Tigr M is too small for this. Pantsir on a big truck is already hard to drive, let alone a small vehicle in the same configuration. The turret elevates the gravity center making the vehicle unstable. In offroad it will lead to accidents.

    With a crane and a six-pack of missiles the crew could reload all 12 missiles in 2 minutes.

    Dedicated = a system that just uses the small missile of the Pantsir system. Which means a smaller, lighter vehicle but still lots of missiles.
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    Post  lyle6 Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:26 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Like Radio command guidance... like Falanga and Shturm and Ataka missiles?
    Like the Pantsir, which has a similar antenna meant for post launch guidance to enable capture by the main antenna/laser.

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    Post  Isos Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 pm

    With a crane and a six-pack of missiles the crew could reload all 12 missiles in 2 minutes.

    Dedicated = a system that just uses the small missile of the Pantsir system. Which means a smaller, lighter vehicle but still lots of missiles.

    Why not. It's not a big deal to put a small crane.

    You still need the big radars to use the missile since they are radio guided. Sosna is a mini pantsir and is very good and probably cheap. Its laser engagement is a new thing and most planes can't jamm such technology.
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    Post  lyle6 Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:26 am

    Isos wrote:

    Why not. It's not a big deal to put a small crane.

    You still need the big radars to use the missile since they are radio guided. Sosna is a mini pantsir and is very good and probably cheap. Its laser engagement is a new thing and most planes can't jamm such technology.

    The missiles aren't radio guided per se. The uplink antennas are there just to capture the missile post launch and keep them within view of the primary guidance system which is a laser in the case of Sosna, that will then take over as soon as the booster is jettisoned baring the rear part of the actual interceptor. The antenna signals are weak enough to not throw away the initial stages of the engagement, so upon switching to the laser the victim is pretty much unaware of the entire time he's under attack.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:14 am

    Why not. It's not a big deal to put a small crane.

    I would think it would be a pain in the backside to put a small crane to load multiple missiles at once.

    It would have a ramp rear door, but you could probably stack individual launch tubes closer together than they are on the mount so you could likely get more individual missiles than you would with a fixed arrangement...

    I would say four people would be ideal... two on the ground and two on the back of the vehicle... the two people on the ground take one missile out and hand it to one of the guys on the back of the vehicle who guides it through the gap where the tube would fit with the other guy at the front of where the tube ends up as the guy at the rear feeds it through. they then attach any electrical connection while the two guys on the ground get the next tube out.

    Even with a crane you would still need one on the ground and one on top to guide the missiles being handled and of course one operating the crane.


    You still need the big radars to use the missile since they are radio guided. Sosna is a mini pantsir and is very good and probably cheap. Its laser engagement is a new thing and most planes can't jamm such technology.

    The command guidance just gets the missile heading in the right direction while the solid rocket booster is accelerating the missile... the west has talked about jamming command guided missiles, but I have yet to see any convincing evidence that they have jammers and that those jammers would work...

    The antenna on the missile for both command guidance and laser beam riding look back at the launch platform, so would be rather tricky to interfere with in the few seconds the target has available... these are rather fast missiles.

    so upon switching to the laser the victim is pretty much unaware of the entire time he's under attack.

    And because the laser sensor in the missile is looking directly back into the laser source it can be very weak too... a laser warning system sensitive enough to detect a laser beam riding laser beam will generally be useless because laser rangefinder lasers and their reflections are rather brighter so the laser warning sensor would be going off all the time when any friendly or enemy lased a target to get a range.
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    Post  Isos Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:12 am

    lyle6 wrote:
    Isos wrote:

    Why not. It's not a big deal to put a small crane.

    You still need the big radars to use the missile since they are radio guided. Sosna is a mini pantsir and is very good and probably cheap. Its laser engagement is a new thing and most planes can't jamm such technology.

    The missiles aren't radio guided per se. The uplink antennas are there just to capture the missile post launch and keep them within view of the primary guidance system which is a laser in the case of Sosna, that will then take over as soon as the booster is jettisoned baring the rear part of the actual interceptor. The antenna signals are weak enough to not throw away the initial stages of the engagement, so upon switching to the laser the victim is pretty much unaware of the entire time he's under attack.

    I was replying about pantsir missiles which are all the way radio guided.

    Sosna is indeed laser guided and immune to jamming.
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    Post  jhelb Tue May 04, 2021 9:13 am

    Isos wrote:
    I was replying about pantsir missiles which are all the way radio guided.

    Sosna is indeed laser guided and immune to jamming.
    Laser guided missiles can also be spoofed, but yes more difficult to do that compared to radio guided missiles.
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    Post  George1 Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:17 pm

    Shooting from Igla MANPADS during the "Clear Sky" competition





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    Post  GarryB Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:50 am

    The advantage of the Boomerang based system is the rear ramp door means you could stack missiles inside easily.

    I would expect that in addition to SOSNA missiles they would also carry a couple of gripstocks for Verba missiles, and perhaps also those EW Kalashnikov anti drone weapons... the only AK designed to jam.... hahahahaha.

    Wheeled systems are very mobile and are cheap to buy and operate and can drive enormous distances at a time at relatively high speeds, which is a useful feature of an air defence vehicle.

    The BTRs are good too but the small side doors make stacking long thing missiles inside rather awkward and inefficient.

    A BTR with a 30mm autocannon with airburst ammo would compliment a missile vehicle too of course.
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    Post  Hole Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:29 pm

    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 15 000186
    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 15 000281
    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 15 000364
    9M311 missile of the Tunguska AD system

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    Post  d_taddei2 Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:22 am

    going through old ex army documents i had during service and found info on Sa-16 and Sa-18 MANPADS around probability hits. info as follows

    Sa-16 - the seeker system is sensitive enough to home in on airframe radiation and the two colour sensitivity is designed to minimise vulnerability to flares chances of hitting fighter aircraft with SAM protection measures are slim. 20-38% against unprotected fighter aircraft, using IRCM jammers only reduces this down to 14%-20%.

    Sa-18 - the seeker system offers better protection against electro optical jammers, probability against unprotected fighter aircraft 30-40%, and using IRCM jammers only reduces this down to 24-30%.


    this was the key points and are not my views, (British army's assessment). However it did not provide info on probability against helicopters or cargo aircraft which i know the probability of a hit is much higher. i know the info is probably old news now but thought i would share.


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    Post  GarryB Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:20 pm

    The Malyutka is a very small wire guided anti tank missile that does not have a massive heat signature and moves at about 120m/s.

    The Russians tested the Igla (SA-16) against the Malyutka that was fired at low altitude to test how effective it would be against a cruise missile like target.

    They fired 9 Malyutkas and got 5 kills with the Igla, which is actually rather impressive because the Malyutka is very small... about 80cm long and just over 120mm in calibre and the Igla has an impact/graze fuse so would actually have to make contact with the target to set off the warhead.

    The findings were obviously add a proximity fuse, but they also improved the sensitivity of the seeker and improve the rocket motor and increase the power of the warhead.

    The result was Igla-S which the Indian Army have just bought the production rights for... they could have bought Mistral or Stinger, but went with Igla-S.

    Malyutka is best known in the west as Sagger, or AT-3.

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