Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Russian VSHORADS Thread

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 24947
    Points : 25491
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 12 Empty Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:40 am

    Strela 10 are getting old and vehicle mounted r-74 would be a nice replacement and would allow to standardize missiles used for aviation and IR shorad.

    That ship has sailed... Pine is the replacement for Strela-10 and exceeds its performance in all areas with a cheaper simpler missile.

    The 9M100 is supposed to be a new standard missile across the services, from Navy, Army, and Air Force (ground and air).

    The 9M100 is supposed to be able to be carried internally with lock after launch performance to be carried by new stealth fighters and drones and bombers... it will also be carried by the S-350 which will also be used by the Air Force to replace S-300 batteries... and support S-400 batteries too.
    jhelb
    jhelb

    Posts : 894
    Points : 1003
    Join date : 2015-04-04
    Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About

    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 12 Empty Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  jhelb on Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:21 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    They could modify the system to replace the existing seekers to allow command guidance options to improve performance against well protected targets...

    What kind of modifications are you referring to?

    The idea of a cheap RPG -7 type of Surface to Air Missile is a good one, however with modifications these rockets/missiles will not remain cheap.


    Isos wrote:They should make a system with r-73/74 like the houtis. Bigger, better computing, better aerodynamics and more reliable missile than manpads which are designed for use by soldiers on foot. Vehicles are less limited by weight.

    Making these surface to air rockets/missiles similar to R-73/74 means you lose the cost advantage that RPG-7 provides. As you probably realize that a R-73/74 is far, far more expensive than a RPG-7.
    medo
    medo

    Posts : 3810
    Points : 3894
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 12 Empty Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  medo on Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:07 pm

    Using R-73/74 as SAM doesn't have sense if you have working air force. With R-73 you will only have big IR guided SAM with range around 10 km, similar to laser guided Sosna-R missile, which is much cheaper. Verba and Igla-S have shorter range, than what R-73 would have, but they could be used on Gibka-S or as standard MANPAD. After all, in Gibka-S you also have 2 MANPAD shooters in the crew to increase the fire on more targets, when needed. You could see on video at 30:00.

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 24947
    Points : 25491
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 12 Empty Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:46 am

    What kind of modifications are you referring to?

    Well my thoughts are that there is a wide range of missiles the Russians could do this for and I really don't know what sort of stock they keep of each type of missile, but some of their older models probably have what are now relatively cheap seekers but their performance isn't good enough to be effective these days, while some would be expensive to recreate their old sensors because they are no longer produced and still would not have good enough performance to be useful these days. Also new sensors will be capable enough but probably cost more than the old missiles did so putting new sensors on old missiles might make them as expensive as newer missiles.

    My idea is to develop a simple command and control guidance system... like the system for TOR missiles and Pantsir missiles, or laser beam riding guidance like Kornet and Pine missiles... cheap and simple and fine for use against cruise missiles and drones...

    The idea of a cheap RPG -7 type of Surface to Air Missile is a good one, however with modifications these rockets/missiles will not remain cheap.

    That is true, which is why I am suggesting most missiles be converted to command guided or beam riding and then the complexity is in the system rather than the missile. In fact you could design it so that the older missiles can be delivered to existing SAM batteries and be linked up so if there is a mass attack you can use the older missiles first... especially as with the solid rocket boosters their performance should be pretty good.

    For simple targets you could extend to include old SAMs as well as AAMs.

    Shturm and Ataka missiles could probably be used too...

    As a bonus you could use those exact same missiles as targets for training... with command guided missiles you could manually fly the older missiles to simulate attack tactics or evasion techniques for more realistic training.

    Making these surface to air rockets/missiles similar to R-73/74 means you lose the cost advantage that RPG-7 provides. As you probably realize that a R-73/74 is far, far more expensive than a RPG-7.

    I agree it is a compromise, but the thing is that you would not normally use an RPG-7 against aircraft except when the target is a hovering helicopter or drone and even then you will more often than not miss.

    Lots of older missiles don't have seekers good enough to engage modern stand off munitions, cruise missiles or drones, so fitting improved sensors or good enough sensors perhaps might make the difference between an old missile taking down a target, or just being part of the pretty fire work display....

    Using R-73/74 as SAM doesn't have sense if you have working air force.

    The concept we are talking about is probably not very valuable for Russia, but some customers might be interested depending on their situation.

    By the way... don't you love the irony of your statement above... using your current WVR AAM as a SAM is silly if you have a working air force... well if your air force has more power than your army and imposes a short range AAM as your standard vehicle based air defence SAM (Chapparal) then you are being silly with your air defence... fortunately the Russians are not in that position...
    medo
    medo

    Posts : 3810
    Points : 3894
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 12 Empty Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  medo on Fri May 01, 2020 3:14 pm

    GarryB wrote:That is true, which is why I am suggesting most missiles be converted to command guided or beam riding and then the complexity is in the system rather than the missile. In fact you could design it so that the older missiles can be delivered to existing SAM batteries and be linked up so if there is a mass attack you can use the older missiles first... especially as with the solid rocket boosters their performance should be pretty good.

    For simple targets you could extend to include old SAMs as well as AAMs.

    Shturm and Ataka missiles could probably be used too...

    Ataka missile is actually used as both AAM and SAM. 9M220O is anti air version of Ataka ATGM wich have proximity fuse and expanding rod fragmentation warhead and have range of 7 km. It could be used from helicopter as AAM or from ground vehicles as SAM. This missile is well placed in VSHORAD category of missiles. On the ground, this missile could be used from BMPT, T-15 ICV with new Kinzhal RCWS and from Uran-9 combat robot. Non of them is made as SAM complex. BMPT have a problem with low elevation at only +45o, but inside this limits it is well effective. Both BMPT and Uran-9 have 30 mm gun, which use the same ammunition. Those guns now got new ammunition with APFSDS round with better penetration capabilities and new HE-Frag round with non contact distant fuse to be used as AHEAD rounds. This new AHEAD type of ammunition made BMPT and Uran-9 extreamly effective against aerial targets, specially drones as well as against infantry. Anti air version of Ataka ATGM only increase their anti air range and capabilities.

    Uran-9 combat robot could be very interesting complex to be used in air defense as VSHORAD. Basic unit is consisted from 4 Uran-9 robots and 1 control post, what could be seen as basic battery. Connecting control post with IADS or battery radar, you made it perfect for that job. I'm sure, that after their first combat use in Syria in 2018, they improve their shortcommings. like communications to control the vehicle. As VSHORAD it would work behind front line troops and not in front of them, so managing of them in this role would be far better. You could easier expose a robot, than a manned vehicle. Uran-9 could use both Igla/Verba MANPADs and Ataka ATGMs as well as 30 mm AHEAD rounds. This concept would be very interesting, using robots (Uran-9), to protect robots, like Uran-6 mine cleaner, against robots (drones). I hope those last pictures of Uran-9 from Syria are from late last year and that Russia send improved ones to test in Syria. Using them against terrorists supported by Turkish army with modern communications and ECM would be perfect combat test.


    By the way... don't you love the irony of your statement above... using your current WVR AAM as a SAM is silly if you have a working air force... well if your air force has more power than your army and imposes a short range AAM as your standard vehicle based air defence SAM (Chapparal) then you are being silly with your air defence... fortunately the Russians are not in that position...

    Yes, NATO love to use AAMs as SAMs. They have a lot of money and big stocks of missiles. In cold war times they made SAMs from Sidewinder and Sparrow AAMs. But still they mostly use dedicated SAMs, like Hawk, Stinger, Patriot, Roland, Crotale, RBS-70,etc. Now they went more into this concept with Mica, Iris-T, Spyder, NASAMS,... They created cheaper stationary missile launchers with fewer crew members, but using expensive missiles, although those western SAM complexes are still very expensive. Problem is, when years of fat cows are over and you have limited stocks of expensive missiles and you have to share them with air force. You could gues, who will have the priority to use them.

    This is big difference between Russian and NATO concept. In Russia air defense have big priority and they produce dedicated complexes and train enough of troops to maintain and use them. NATO on the other hand didn't have air defense in priority and when shrinking their armed forces thay cut and take troops from air defense mostly. So they now made those new SAMs with as low number of troops for crews as possible that it could still work. So using AAMs for SAMs have its own logic, as maintaing the missiles and logistics went to air force, which didn't went through such troops reduction. They now have skeleton number of troops, that they could work 24/7 if none was missing, but all support they need from outside source.
    d_taddei2
    d_taddei2

    Posts : 1761
    Points : 1941
    Join date : 2013-05-11
    Location : Scotland UK

    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 12 Empty Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:18 pm

    I am really surprised we haven't seen export orders for SOSNA R.  Most armed forces wouldnt even need to buy complete system as such the missile they could buy and put it on any existing platform anything from trucks,  BTR series, BRDM series, BMP series,  BMD series,  even tank chassis and could be old stock vehicles, if they already have Sa-9 or Sa-13 they could just remove the missile system and drop SOSNA onto with very little tweaking. It's cheap system and a big improvement on systems they ate likely using such as the older systems already mentioned and AA guns that most poorer nations are using. Export potential is huge.  And I think Russia should be pushing orders it's a fairly easy win to be honest.  Yet nothing as yet. You could also(if u already had them) add SOSNA onto zsu-23-4 and zu-23-2 obviously you would only have 6/4 missiles on the system it would be a poormans pantsir bit better than nothing the zu-23-2 can also be mounted onto just about anything. Sa-8 is another platform you could mount SOSNA onto. Options are endless. I remember garryb talked about a prototype of a single 30mm gun mounted on a towed mount this system could also benefit from SOSNA. Or even a towed mounted single 57mm gun with SOSNA would be ideal to pick up by heli and dropped into hard to reach areas and provide AD. Just a thought

    Sponsored content

    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 12 Empty Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:58 am