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    Russian VSHORADS Thread

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:40 am

    Strela 10 are getting old and vehicle mounted r-74 would be a nice replacement and would allow to standardize missiles used for aviation and IR shorad.

    That ship has sailed... Pine is the replacement for Strela-10 and exceeds its performance in all areas with a cheaper simpler missile.

    The 9M100 is supposed to be a new standard missile across the services, from Navy, Army, and Air Force (ground and air).

    The 9M100 is supposed to be able to be carried internally with lock after launch performance to be carried by new stealth fighters and drones and bombers... it will also be carried by the S-350 which will also be used by the Air Force to replace S-300 batteries... and support S-400 batteries too.
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    Post  jhelb on Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:21 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    They could modify the system to replace the existing seekers to allow command guidance options to improve performance against well protected targets...

    What kind of modifications are you referring to?

    The idea of a cheap RPG -7 type of Surface to Air Missile is a good one, however with modifications these rockets/missiles will not remain cheap.


    Isos wrote:They should make a system with r-73/74 like the houtis. Bigger, better computing, better aerodynamics and more reliable missile than manpads which are designed for use by soldiers on foot. Vehicles are less limited by weight.

    Making these surface to air rockets/missiles similar to R-73/74 means you lose the cost advantage that RPG-7 provides. As you probably realize that a R-73/74 is far, far more expensive than a RPG-7.
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    Post  medo on Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:07 pm

    Using R-73/74 as SAM doesn't have sense if you have working air force. With R-73 you will only have big IR guided SAM with range around 10 km, similar to laser guided Sosna-R missile, which is much cheaper. Verba and Igla-S have shorter range, than what R-73 would have, but they could be used on Gibka-S or as standard MANPAD. After all, in Gibka-S you also have 2 MANPAD shooters in the crew to increase the fire on more targets, when needed. You could see on video at 30:00.

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    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:46 am

    What kind of modifications are you referring to?

    Well my thoughts are that there is a wide range of missiles the Russians could do this for and I really don't know what sort of stock they keep of each type of missile, but some of their older models probably have what are now relatively cheap seekers but their performance isn't good enough to be effective these days, while some would be expensive to recreate their old sensors because they are no longer produced and still would not have good enough performance to be useful these days. Also new sensors will be capable enough but probably cost more than the old missiles did so putting new sensors on old missiles might make them as expensive as newer missiles.

    My idea is to develop a simple command and control guidance system... like the system for TOR missiles and Pantsir missiles, or laser beam riding guidance like Kornet and Pine missiles... cheap and simple and fine for use against cruise missiles and drones...

    The idea of a cheap RPG -7 type of Surface to Air Missile is a good one, however with modifications these rockets/missiles will not remain cheap.

    That is true, which is why I am suggesting most missiles be converted to command guided or beam riding and then the complexity is in the system rather than the missile. In fact you could design it so that the older missiles can be delivered to existing SAM batteries and be linked up so if there is a mass attack you can use the older missiles first... especially as with the solid rocket boosters their performance should be pretty good.

    For simple targets you could extend to include old SAMs as well as AAMs.

    Shturm and Ataka missiles could probably be used too...

    As a bonus you could use those exact same missiles as targets for training... with command guided missiles you could manually fly the older missiles to simulate attack tactics or evasion techniques for more realistic training.

    Making these surface to air rockets/missiles similar to R-73/74 means you lose the cost advantage that RPG-7 provides. As you probably realize that a R-73/74 is far, far more expensive than a RPG-7.

    I agree it is a compromise, but the thing is that you would not normally use an RPG-7 against aircraft except when the target is a hovering helicopter or drone and even then you will more often than not miss.

    Lots of older missiles don't have seekers good enough to engage modern stand off munitions, cruise missiles or drones, so fitting improved sensors or good enough sensors perhaps might make the difference between an old missile taking down a target, or just being part of the pretty fire work display....

    Using R-73/74 as SAM doesn't have sense if you have working air force.

    The concept we are talking about is probably not very valuable for Russia, but some customers might be interested depending on their situation.

    By the way... don't you love the irony of your statement above... using your current WVR AAM as a SAM is silly if you have a working air force... well if your air force has more power than your army and imposes a short range AAM as your standard vehicle based air defence SAM (Chapparal) then you are being silly with your air defence... fortunately the Russians are not in that position...
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    Post  medo on Fri May 01, 2020 3:14 pm

    GarryB wrote:That is true, which is why I am suggesting most missiles be converted to command guided or beam riding and then the complexity is in the system rather than the missile. In fact you could design it so that the older missiles can be delivered to existing SAM batteries and be linked up so if there is a mass attack you can use the older missiles first... especially as with the solid rocket boosters their performance should be pretty good.

    For simple targets you could extend to include old SAMs as well as AAMs.

    Shturm and Ataka missiles could probably be used too...

    Ataka missile is actually used as both AAM and SAM. 9M220O is anti air version of Ataka ATGM wich have proximity fuse and expanding rod fragmentation warhead and have range of 7 km. It could be used from helicopter as AAM or from ground vehicles as SAM. This missile is well placed in VSHORAD category of missiles. On the ground, this missile could be used from BMPT, T-15 ICV with new Kinzhal RCWS and from Uran-9 combat robot. Non of them is made as SAM complex. BMPT have a problem with low elevation at only +45o, but inside this limits it is well effective. Both BMPT and Uran-9 have 30 mm gun, which use the same ammunition. Those guns now got new ammunition with APFSDS round with better penetration capabilities and new HE-Frag round with non contact distant fuse to be used as AHEAD rounds. This new AHEAD type of ammunition made BMPT and Uran-9 extreamly effective against aerial targets, specially drones as well as against infantry. Anti air version of Ataka ATGM only increase their anti air range and capabilities.

    Uran-9 combat robot could be very interesting complex to be used in air defense as VSHORAD. Basic unit is consisted from 4 Uran-9 robots and 1 control post, what could be seen as basic battery. Connecting control post with IADS or battery radar, you made it perfect for that job. I'm sure, that after their first combat use in Syria in 2018, they improve their shortcommings. like communications to control the vehicle. As VSHORAD it would work behind front line troops and not in front of them, so managing of them in this role would be far better. You could easier expose a robot, than a manned vehicle. Uran-9 could use both Igla/Verba MANPADs and Ataka ATGMs as well as 30 mm AHEAD rounds. This concept would be very interesting, using robots (Uran-9), to protect robots, like Uran-6 mine cleaner, against robots (drones). I hope those last pictures of Uran-9 from Syria are from late last year and that Russia send improved ones to test in Syria. Using them against terrorists supported by Turkish army with modern communications and ECM would be perfect combat test.


    By the way... don't you love the irony of your statement above... using your current WVR AAM as a SAM is silly if you have a working air force... well if your air force has more power than your army and imposes a short range AAM as your standard vehicle based air defence SAM (Chapparal) then you are being silly with your air defence... fortunately the Russians are not in that position...

    Yes, NATO love to use AAMs as SAMs. They have a lot of money and big stocks of missiles. In cold war times they made SAMs from Sidewinder and Sparrow AAMs. But still they mostly use dedicated SAMs, like Hawk, Stinger, Patriot, Roland, Crotale, RBS-70,etc. Now they went more into this concept with Mica, Iris-T, Spyder, NASAMS,... They created cheaper stationary missile launchers with fewer crew members, but using expensive missiles, although those western SAM complexes are still very expensive. Problem is, when years of fat cows are over and you have limited stocks of expensive missiles and you have to share them with air force. You could gues, who will have the priority to use them.

    This is big difference between Russian and NATO concept. In Russia air defense have big priority and they produce dedicated complexes and train enough of troops to maintain and use them. NATO on the other hand didn't have air defense in priority and when shrinking their armed forces thay cut and take troops from air defense mostly. So they now made those new SAMs with as low number of troops for crews as possible that it could still work. So using AAMs for SAMs have its own logic, as maintaing the missiles and logistics went to air force, which didn't went through such troops reduction. They now have skeleton number of troops, that they could work 24/7 if none was missing, but all support they need from outside source.
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:18 pm

    I am really surprised we haven't seen export orders for SOSNA R.  Most armed forces wouldnt even need to buy complete system as such the missile they could buy and put it on any existing platform anything from trucks,  BTR series, BRDM series, BMP series,  BMD series,  even tank chassis and could be old stock vehicles, if they already have Sa-9 or Sa-13 they could just remove the missile system and drop SOSNA onto with very little tweaking. It's cheap system and a big improvement on systems they ate likely using such as the older systems already mentioned and AA guns that most poorer nations are using. Export potential is huge.  And I think Russia should be pushing orders it's a fairly easy win to be honest.  Yet nothing as yet. You could also(if u already had them) add SOSNA onto zsu-23-4 and zu-23-2 obviously you would only have 6/4 missiles on the system it would be a poormans pantsir bit better than nothing the zu-23-2 can also be mounted onto just about anything. Sa-8 is another platform you could mount SOSNA onto. Options are endless. I remember garryb talked about a prototype of a single 30mm gun mounted on a towed mount this system could also benefit from SOSNA. Or even a towed mounted single 57mm gun with SOSNA would be ideal to pick up by heli and dropped into hard to reach areas and provide AD. Just a thought
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    Post  Isos on Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:38 pm

    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 12 Ef89rq10

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    Post  Hole on Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:40 pm

    Are you sure that this is a VSHORAD system?
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    Post  Isos on Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:57 pm

    Hole wrote:Are you sure that this is a VSHORAD system?

    Found on twitter. Rob lee account. He said it could ve a new Gibka-S launcher. Maybe a new version with Verba missiles. I agree with that. It looks more like Manpad launchers than ATGM or MRLS.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:19 am

    I remember garryb talked about a prototype of a single 30mm gun mounted on a towed mount this system could also benefit from SOSNA.

    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 12 Images10

    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 12 Sosna810

    That trailer mount was a SOSNA mount... it had four ready to launch SOSNA missiles, and a single twin barrel 30m 2A38M cannon of the type used on the Tunguska and and newer model Pantsir.

    The 2A38M fires are between 2,000 and 2,500rpm and is a twin barrel gun.

    With optronics and a covered operator position I am surprised it is not more popular...
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    Post  medo on Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:54 am

    http://foto-i-mir.ru/2020/09/01/«птицелов»-с-лазером-сухопутные-войс/#more-167179

    Лазерный «Птицелов» защитит «Армату» и «Курганец» от беспилотников, бомб и ракет. Именно такое название получил новый зенитно-ракетный комплекс, который вскоре получат Сухопутные войска. Ранее сообщалось, что ЗРК поступит только на вооружение Воздушно-десантных войск. Но в настоящее время принято принципиальное решение доработать «Птицелов» под нужды «сухопутчиков». Выйти на испытания ЗРК должен через два года. В войсках новинка, установленная на шасси БМП-3, сменит устаревшие комплексы советской эры и будет защищать технику и личный состав на поле боя и на марше от современных дронов и высокоточного оружия.
    НАЗЕМНЫЙ «ПТИЦЕЛОВ»
    Принципиальное решение разработать сухопутную версию «Птицелова» уже принято, и работы по ней уже идут, рассказали «Известиям» источники в военном ведомстве. Новый ЗРК установят на шасси гусеничной боевой машины пехоты БМП-3. Поэтому «Птицелов» сможет сопровождать танки и другую технику Сухопутных войск на любой местности. В наземной версии новый ЗРК может получить более дальнобойные ракеты, чем в десантируемой, добавили источники.
    Ранее командующий ВДВ генерал-полковник Андрей Сердюков заявил, что современный авиадесантируемый зенитный ракетный комплекс «Птицелов» его род войск получит к 2022 году.
    Согласно графику этапов испытаний (имеется в распоряжении «Известий»), завершить опытно-конструкторскую работу по разработке сухопутного «Птицелова» и его испытания также планируется к концу 2022 года. Разработка двух разных шасси для него ведется параллельно.
    Уже известно, что комплекс оснастят круглосуточной всепогодной оптико-локационной станцией кругового обзора. С ней «Птицелов» сможет обнаруживать цели, не выдавая свое положение излучением радара. Такой же способ обнаружения использует ЗРК «Стрела-10», для замены которого предназначен новый комплекс. Ключевым отличием станет наведение более совершенных и мощных ракет при помощи лазерного канала управления.

    The laser "Birdcatcher" will protect "Armata" and "Kurganets" from drones, bombs and missiles. This is the name given to the new anti-aircraft missile system, which will soon be received by the Ground Forces. Earlier it was reported that the air defense system will go only into service with the Airborne Forces. But at the present time, a decision has been made in principle to modify the "Birdies" for the needs of the "landowners". The air defense missile system should be tested in two years. In the troops, the novelty, installed on the BMP-3 chassis, will replace the outdated Soviet-era complexes and will protect equipment and personnel on the battlefield and on the march from modern drones and high-precision weapons.
    GROUND "BIRDS"
    The fundamental decision to develop a land-based version of the Ptitselov has already been made, and work on it is already underway, sources in the military department told Izvestia. The new air defense system will be installed on the chassis of the BMP-3 tracked infantry fighting vehicle. Therefore, the "Birdman" will be able to accompany tanks and other equipment of the Ground Forces on any terrain. In the ground version, the new air defense system can receive more long-range missiles than in the airborne, the sources added.
    Earlier, the commander of the Airborne Forces, Colonel-General Andrei Serdyukov, said that the modern airborne anti-aircraft missile system "Ptitselov" will receive his arm of troops by 2022.
    According to the schedule of test stages (available to Izvestia), it is also planned to complete the development work on the development of the land-based Ptitselov and test it by the end of 2022. The development of two different chassis for it is being carried out in parallel.
    It is already known that the complex will be equipped with a round-the-clock all-weather optical location station with a circular view. With it, the "Birdman" will be able to detect targets without giving away its position by radar radiation. The same detection method is used by the Strela-10 air defense missile system, for which a new complex is intended to replace. The key difference will be the guidance of more advanced and powerful missiles using a laser control channel.

    Russian army decided to upgrade Sosna VSHORAD complex and rename it to Pticelov to unify it with VDV, which will use the same complex on BMD-4M chassis. Pticelov could get also a new missile, which will be self guided (IR?) and it will have optical detection complex. Most probably laser and IR/UV MAWS sensors to cover 360o and detect targets passively.
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    Post  Hole on Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:06 pm

    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 12 Taifun19
    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 12 Taifun20
    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 12 Taifun21
    Taifun-PVO

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    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 12 Empty Tunguska in action

    Post  Hole on Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:06 pm

    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 12 Eijjtl10
    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 12 Eijjvq10
    Tunguska in action

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    Post  medo on Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:29 pm

    Modernized one. thumbsup
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:46 am

    Interesting new IR searchlight... haven't seen one of those on an upgraded Russian vehicle for a while...
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    Post  medo on Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:16 pm

    New IR search light? Most probably you think on thermal imaging camera placed over optical sight for night operations. IR search light over commander's periscope is the same.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:57 am

    Just referring to the search light with the IR cover... they seem to have been replaced on most upgraded Russian armoured vehicles...


    Found on twitter. Rob lee account. He said it could ve a new Gibka-S launcher. Maybe a new version with Verba missiles. I agree with that. It looks more like Manpad launchers than ATGM or MRLS.

    Just looking at the shape they look very box like... is it possible these are 10 shot 80mm rocket pods of the new type? (and therefore not air defence at all).
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    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 12 Empty Tunguska-M1 in Kaukasus-2020 exercise.

    Post  medo on Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:43 pm

    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 12 12016010

    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 12 12015710

    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 12 12016711

    Tunguska-M1 in Kaukasus-2020 exercise.
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    Post  Isos on Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:10 am

    I saw on wiki that Russia upgraded its ~400 Osa-AKM systems. Anyone has a sources about this ? The wiki source was in russian.

    Also belorussia seems to offer a very good upgrade with better radar and missiles (20km range). Why don't Russia offers such upgrades ? Plenty of countries have this missile systems and would line to upgrade it.

    The system is quite the same as Tor. Maybe they could just use Tor systems on it. Radars are the same and tge missiles are from the same family. It's really worth modernizing it at level of Tor and they have hundreds of them.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:12 pm

    They have a lot in service because the launch vehicle of TOR is expensive with its powerful and capable radar systems.

    The OSA is also widely used to launch missiles as targets for air defence units.

    The missiles are relatively cheap command guided weapons... I would think an upgrade that makes the radars smaller and lighter and perhaps cheaper to use and operate would be a big step forward for the system and make it more useful.

    The SA-8 has 6 ready to launch missiles while the first TOR had 8, and the current model has 16.

    I remember in the conflict in Georgia in 8 8 8 that OSA was suggested for early use against drones because MANPADS were not cheap and struggled sometimes with some electric drones which had tiny IR signatures. The Igla-S introduced a proximity fuse to hit rather small targets too, while earlier models struggled against such small targets.

    ZU-23 towed guns had limited range for drones operating at 3-4km altitude and of course BUK missiles were just massive overkill.

    Tunguska or TOR or Pantsir would have been good solutions but were not in service in that region in numbers.

    Obviously aircraft could also do the job but as we have seen it has been suggested that helicopters could also do the job with 30mm cannon and presumably air burst ammo...

    I guess some of the smaller more fragile drones it could probably just use its main rotor directly or downwash to make them crash...

    I would think upgraded OSA would actually sell rather well and a serious upgrade of the launch vehicle would be a good thing too in regards to smaller more compact and more capable radar and EO systems together with rather more ready to fire cheap simple missiles specifically for use against drones and the like...
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    Post  lyle6 on Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:17 pm

    Isos wrote:I saw on wiki that Russia upgraded its ~400 Osa-AKM systems. Anyone has a sources about this ? The wiki source was in russian.

    Also belorussia seems to offer a very good upgrade with better radar and missiles (20km range). Why don't Russia offers such upgrades ? Plenty of countries have this missile systems and would line to upgrade it.

    The system is quite the same as Tor. Maybe they could just use Tor systems on it. Radars are the same and tge missiles are from the same family. It's really worth modernizing it at level of Tor and they have hundreds of them.

    The Osa, like most legacy systems is actually perfectly viable if not for the piece of wetware sitting behind the console. The Osa if used right, is still deadly even to more modern threats, where it can utilize its impressive mobility and high degree of autonomy and cued in by other acquisition assets, spring ambushes on low flying aviation then melt away before the enemy can respond. It has no business being used in a static defensive posture, sitting in the same spot for days on end while constantly radiating for its own targets. Seems an easy mistake to avoid, but you'd be surprised by how common these malpractices are found in many militaries.

    Unfortunately it takes a significant amount of time and resources to train competent AD crews and even longer to develop astute officers to employ the tactics that makes use of these systems to their potential. I suspect the collapse of the Soviet Union brought with it the access to the vast and valuable font of institutional knowledge that were its air defence schools, and the peace dividend years just boiled off those that were lucky enough to attend.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:49 pm

    lyle6 wrote:
    Isos wrote:I saw on wiki that Russia upgraded its ~400 Osa-AKM systems. Anyone has a sources about this ? The wiki source was in russian.

    Also belorussia seems to offer a very good upgrade with better radar and missiles (20km range). Why don't Russia offers such upgrades ? Plenty of countries have this missile systems and would line to upgrade it.

    The system is quite the same as Tor. Maybe they could just use Tor systems on it. Radars are the same and tge missiles are from the same family. It's really worth modernizing it at level of Tor and they have hundreds of them.

    The Osa, like most legacy systems is actually perfectly viable if not for the piece of wetware sitting behind the console. The Osa if used right, is still deadly even to more modern threats, where it can utilize its impressive mobility and high degree of autonomy and cued in by other acquisition assets, spring ambushes on low flying aviation then melt away before the enemy can respond. It has no business being used in a static defensive posture, sitting in the same spot for days on end while constantly radiating for its own targets. Seems an easy mistake to avoid, but you'd be surprised by how common these malpractices are found in many militaries.

    Unfortunately it takes a significant amount of time and resources to train competent AD crews and even longer to develop astute officers to employ the tactics that makes use of these systems to their potential. I suspect the collapse of the Soviet Union brought with it the access to the vast and valuable font of institutional knowledge that were its air defence schools, and the peace dividend years just boiled off those that were lucky enough to attend.

    Osa is perfectly fine as long as it's connected in to the IAD with the proper command post.
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    Post  Isos on Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:57 pm

    You don't answer to my question. Osa can be updared to Tor level which will make it even better.
    lyle6
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    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 12 Empty Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  lyle6 on Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:07 am

    Isos wrote:You don't answer to my question. Osa can be updared to Tor level which will make it even better.

    You can insert as much Tor technology into the Osa as you can allow, but you'd end up paying close to Tor prices and still end up with an inferior system. There's just way too little in common between Tor and Osa and for good reason: the Tor is not just an entire generation leap ahead of the Osa in terms of technology but it is designated to a higher AD category than the Osa.
    GarryB
    GarryB

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    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 12 Empty Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:17 am

    They have large numbers of OSA missiles in stock... it is used as a target system for training air defence units... you can drive an OSA vehicle out onto your range and fire modified OSA missiles programmed to fly a specific trajectory and speed for your trainee defence units to practise shooting down.

    Fully mobile and being a command guided missile its flightpath can be developed to mimic all sorts of threats you might want to practise against...

    The question you have to ask is... is the cost of modifying the OSA missiles to allow them to engage modern drone targets make it worth while, or could new smaller TOR missiles be developed to be low cost and much better performing so OSA could remain in use for the Russians as a target missile, and for foreign operators as a useful system against a variety of targets.

    OSA is not small or light and neither is TOR... for small and light and relatively cheap there is Pine and perhaps even Kornet-EM.

    I would think the most cost effective anti drone system would be a drone with a forward firing 40mm grenade launcher with a HE grenade with forward firing fragments and a set fuse to detonate the grenade 50m in from of the drone... so you could fly the drone around and attack enemy drones by firing a 40mm grenade from 60-70m range...

    It would be the cheapest way to deliver fragments at the target... maybe a couple of 12 gauge shotgun barrels firing forward if things get too close loaded with buckshot for targets 10-20m away.

    The problem is that fragments or shotgun blasts offer the best lethality and kill probability but are only effective at very short range... like 20-30m so issuing shotguns is not the solution as a soldier could only hit targets that get within 20-30m of them which is just too close.

    Mounting it on a reusable drone like a model plane means it can patrol and go out and engage enemy drones.... a shotgun barrel with say a 25 round drum magazine and a 40mm grenade launcher with a belt of say 50-100 grenades means you should be able to engage quite a few drones but also engage targets on the ground if needed...

    OSA can still shoot down enemy missiles like cruise missiles and would be valuable even just for missile training, but certainly some upgrade would be interesting... but I think Russia would prefer its clients to buy TOR instead... maybe a dumbed down cheaper simpler model with LIDAR or EO only systems perhaps....

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    Russian VSHORADS Thread - Page 12 Empty Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

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