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    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Numbers

    eehnie
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    Post  eehnie Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:14 am

    PREVIEW OF CHANGES IN THE COMBAT FLEET OF THE RUSSIAN NAVY 2018-2027

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t7032p50-state-armament-program-2018-2027#216049


    Last edited by eehnie on Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:34 am; edited 24 times in total
    eehnie
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    Post  eehnie Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:11 pm

    http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_23560.htm

    This database includes not projects of ships that reached not the construction phase. As example you will not find still in the database the Project 23000, the Project Priboi, the Project Lavina, the Project Kalina, the project Husky, the Project 22500,...

    After looking about every project, I found no-one case in the database where they say a project reached the prodction phase, but is not right. My experience is that their work is right in overall terms and I found not a mistake of the importance of whicht you are accusing them of. For me the source is reliable in overall terms, unlike your word. And is one of the bests, if not the best.

    If you want to dispute the source, you can try to find in the database one case more where the database says that a project reached the production phase but is not true.



    Last edited by eehnie on Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:09 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  Guest Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:03 am

    eehnie wrote:http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_23560.htm

    This database includes not projects of ships that reached not the construction phase. As example you will not find still in the database the Project 23000, the Project Priboi, the Project Lavina, the Project Kalina, the project Husky, the Project 22500,...

    After looking about every project, I found no-one case in the database where they say a project reached the prodction phase, but is not right. My experience is that their work is right in overall terms and I found not a mistake of the importance of whicht you are accusing them of. For me the source is reliable in overall terms, unlike your word. And is one of the bests, if not the best.

    If you want to dispute the source, you can try to find in the database one case more where the database says that a project reached the production phase but is not true.

    Drop dead.
    George1
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    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Numbers - Page 8 Empty navy construction plan

    Post  George1 Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:16 am

    The ship's composition of the Russian Navy (combat ships of 1-2 rank, NK - from 2,000 tons full) on 01-02.02.2018

    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Numbers - Page 8 0_182aa4_73e46d32_orig

    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Numbers - Page 8 0_182aa3_36a9430b_orig

    https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/182204.html
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:57 am

    Some1 wrote that "the Baltic & Black Seas r lagoons" & therefore won't need big fleets. I don't agree. They both support deployments to the Med. Sea & occasionally to the Indian Ocean.
    http://www.businessinsider.com/russias-baltic-fleet-will-get-new-missile-corvette-and-bombers-2017-5
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-defence-baltic-sweden/russia-beefs-up-baltic-fleet-amid-nato-tensions-reports-idUSKCN12Q1HB
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Fleet#Additions_of_ships_to_the_Fleet

    Between the 2 seas, the internal waterways r not deep for most of them & that's why 5 SSKs so far went around Europe to its new base in the BSF: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91-261_%C2%AB%D0%9D%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%C2%BB#%D0%A1%D0%BB%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B1%D0%B0
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Deep_Water_System_of_European_Russia
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91-237_%C2%AB%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2-%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%83%C2%BB#%D0%A1%D0%BB%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B1%D0%B0
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91-262_%C2%AB%D0%A1%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%9E%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%C2%BB#%D0%A1%D0%BB%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B1%D0%B0
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91-265_%C2%AB%D0%9A%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%80%C2%BB#%D0%A1%D0%BB%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B1%D0%B0
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91-268_%C2%AB%D0%92%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%9D%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%C2%BB#%D0%98%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D1%81%D0%BB%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B1%D1%8B

    The Belomorkanal is also too small for the NF to reinforce the Baltic Fleet w/o going around Scandinavia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Sea%E2%80%93Baltic_Canal

    So, they both need bigger fleets for sustainability & flexibility; otherwise, the N. & Pac. Fleets will have to plug the gaps in the Med.& Red Seas & the Indian Ocean, like the CG Varyag did off Syria!

    https://pulaski.pl/en/russian-anti-access-area-denial-a2ad-capabilities-implications-for-nato/
    Rebuttal: http://nvo.ng.ru/concepts/2018-.02-22/1_985_west.html?print=Y
    Kimppis
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    Post  Kimppis Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:07 pm

    Tsavo Lion, you link a lot of Western MSM BS about Russia and China for some reason, but this one is really good:

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Rebuttal: http://nvo.ng.ru/concepts/2018-.02-22/1_985_west.html?print=Y

    Terms like A2/AD and hybrid warfare are indeed basically meaningless and "pseudo-scientific" concepts that are pure propaganda, "Gerasimov Doctrine" doesn't actually exist, etc. The author is on point. Although funnily enough he also criticizes the Color Revolution concept, which is very popular among Russophiles/anti-Americans: "At the same time, the followers of this concept, as a rule, diligently ignore the fact that no external influence will lead to a revolution if there are no internal prerequisites for it."

    George1
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    Post  George1 Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:48 am

    Construction of warships of the ocean and far sea for the Russian Navy as of 01.03.2018

    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Numbers - Page 8 0_1868fd_7f3e0d1a_orig

    https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/184140.html
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:10 pm

    Lights blue touch paper.

    In early 2010s the successes in Russian military buildup triggered an euphoria. It was characterized by calls to resume the production of missile-carrying trains, sea skimmers, air-cushioned ships and total upgrade of the fleet inherited from the USSR. However, it should be admitted now that the program had failed, expert Alexander Shishkin writes in the Vzglyad business newspaper.

    http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/focus-analysis/naval-technology/6006-russia-s-modernization-of-soviet-era-vessels-facing-problems-part-1.html
    George1
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    Post  George1 Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:52 am

    Report from PJSC Shipyard "Severnaya Verf" (Under construction ships)

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3113976.html

    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:16 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Lights blue touch paper.

    In early 2010s the successes in Russian military buildup triggered an euphoria. It was characterized by calls to resume the production of missile-carrying trains, sea skimmers, air-cushioned ships and total upgrade of the fleet inherited from the USSR. However, it should be admitted now that the program had failed, expert Alexander Shishkin writes in the Vzglyad business newspaper.

    http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/focus-analysis/naval-technology/6006-russia-s-modernization-of-soviet-era-vessels-facing-problems-part-1.html

    Well Vzglyad is more like "bloggers digest" - no own news just digested and commented from other sources. End ths expert is AFAIK just a nave engineer nobody who runs any industrial activity.
    George1
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    Post  George1 Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:58 pm

    Construction of warships of the ocean and far sea for the Russian Navy as of 04/01/2018

    Information was used from reports of the Ministry of Defense of Russia, information agencies, press services of shipyard enterprises; from factory newspapers; from websites, blogs and forums on naval, military and military-industrial topics.

    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Numbers - Page 8 0_18a7d9_92d3cc83_orig

    https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/186716.html
    verkhoturye51
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    Post  verkhoturye51 Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:42 pm

    Question for George: after Ivan Gren commision next month, can we expect decomissions of some Aligator LSTs from 1960s?
    George1
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    Post  George1 Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:29 am

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Question for George: after Ivan Gren commission next month, can we expect decommissions of some Aligator LSTs from 1960s?

    i have no idea.
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    Austin


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    Post  Austin Thu May 17, 2018 11:09 am

    Vladimir Putin discussed the problems of rearmament of the Navy

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3201649.html

    As Ivan Safronov writes in the article "Cephalopod" surfaced in Bocharov Creek , published in the newspaper Kommersant , on Wednesday, in the presence of President Vladimir Putin, military and industry representatives discussed the problems of cooperation of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC), because of which the deadlines execution of the state defense order. The military repeatedly raised this issue at internal meetings, but the situation remained almost unchanged. The president's intervention is designed to prevent similar problems in the implementation of the new state armament program until 2027, in which trillions of rubles are allocated for the development of the Navy.

    Opening the meeting, Vladimir Putin recalled that the Navy is "the most important factor in the country's military, economic security, maintaining strategic parity" and "in general, a significant tool for ensuring our national interests." The latter included, in particular, the actions of ships and submarines that struck during the military operation in Syria strikes on positions of the militants with cruise missiles of the "Caliber" type from the waters of the Mediterranean and Caspian seas. "We will continue to equip the Navy with the latest systems of weapons, communications, reconnaissance and target designation." As before, the quality requirements, the deadlines for fulfilling the tasks of the state defense order should remain the most stringent, "the president said, recognizing" problematic issues "with both the creation of new equipment and the repair of the already delivered equipment. Then the meeting continued in a closed mode for the press:

    The main topic of the meeting was the execution of the state defense order by enterprises that are part of the USC cooperation, two sources of Kommersant in the shipbuilding industry and an official close to the leadership of the Defense Ministry say. The military is concerned about the negative statistics of the failure of the terms of contracts for the supply of ships and submarines, provided timely advance and payment, one of the interlocutors of Kommersant admits.

    For this reason, not only high-ranking military officers (acting Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu, Deputy Minister for Armaments Yuri Borisov, Navy Commander Vladimir Korolyov, etc.) were summoned to Sochi and the industry leadership (OSK President Alexei Rakhmanov and acting Minister of Industry and Trade Denis Manturov), but the managers of the enterprises of the shipbuilding industry - Sevmash, Severnaya Verf, Zvezda and TsKB of marine engineering Rubin.

    Re-equipment of the Navy was one of the priorities of the previous state program of armaments: in 2011-2020, the fleet planned to allocate about 4.7 trillion rubles, of which almost half were to go for serial purchases of new weapons and equipment. However, by early 2018, only three of the eight strategic nuclear submarines of Project 955 Borei (the standard carrier of the Bulava ICBM) and one of the seven multi-purpose submarines of Project 885 Yasen (carrier of cruise missiles) were introduced into the Navy. The situation was no better with combat surface ships: according to the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, the Navy received only four frigates and eleven corvettes (of 15 and 35 ordered accordingly) during this time. According to the interlocutor of "Kommersant" in the industry, in part the problems are objective:

    In February, March and May, during the conference calls, Sergei Shoigu criticized USC enterprises, accusing them of disrupting the terms of their obligations under contracts, but, according to the Kommersant source, the situation did not improve, so the discussion reached the presidential level. Meanwhile, in the new state armament program until 2027 (about 4 trillion rubles in the part of the Navy) there are extremely important projects that can not be "shifted to the right" under any circumstances, the source of Kommersant in the department continues, - the construction of strategic nuclear submarines " Borey B, multi-purpose submarines of the fifth generation of the Husky type (carrier of hypersonic missiles Zirkon), non-nuclear submarines Kalina. Under special control, according to "Kommersant", there are projects of underwater drones such as "Cephalopod" and "Status-6"

    According to the expert of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies Konstantin Makienko, USC has a number of old problems, which it is unlikely to solve in the existing model of the industry management. But you can try to focus on projects that are key to the country's defense capability (strategic and multi-purpose nuclear submarines) or are already launched into the series, the expert believes.
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Thu May 17, 2018 3:42 pm

    I have read that the productivity of Russian shipyards is 20% of international mean value... from the values in Austin's post and notwithstanding the issue with the engines, the situation seems a complete disaster...

    Any idea, why all those problems? Have they already solved them for GPV 2027?
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Thu May 17, 2018 5:15 pm

    A lot has to do with politics and the Navy not knowing what it wants.

    You start building a ship and than someone comes and tells you: "Stop using this or that component, because it´s foreign" or part of your suppliers stops delivering items because you are in Russia... Well, that´s not good for productivity.

    Then look at the Steregutschij. Series production in the first yard was accelerating, then comes the Navy and wants the ships with cruise missiles. The yard stops production, the ship is redesingned and the production starts over again. But years are lost. Same with the Gren. First the Navy wants six vessels, mostly for coastal and littoral areas. But it should be well armed. Than they change their mind, reduce the weapon load, just to save a few bucks. Then Medveded/Serdukhov come along and decide, that the Mistral will be bought. The production is stopped for years.
    Singular_Transform
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    Post  Singular_Transform Fri May 18, 2018 9:17 am

    It happens with every new product.

    New product needs new process, it needs debugging/fine tuning .

    So, if the lead time of the components are say 12 month, and you learn the process , there can be cases when you recognise issue only during the final assembly affecting the design/beginning of the manufacturing process..

    Means you have to re-manufacture the part, and potentially you have to repeat it several times.

    So, the first part is the most time consuming to make, the second and consecutive units are faster/ cheaper than that.

    See the Ford carrier issues, they have to re-design the whole ship - and they had to do it because of the use of a new supplier for arresting gear/catapult, who has to learn the processes.


    So ,the most important ship of the RuN is the Kazan, if they commission it then the rest of the submarines will be easy ride. Or the surface ships : )
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Fri May 18, 2018 3:03 pm

    Hole wrote:A lot has to do with politics and the Navy not knowing what it wants.

    You start building a ship and than someone comes and tells you: "Stop using this or that component, because it´s foreign" or part of your suppliers stops delivering items because you are in Russia... Well, that´s not good for productivity.

    Then look at the Steregutschij. Series production in the first yard was accelerating, then comes the Navy and wants the ships with cruise missiles. The yard stops production, the ship is redesingned and the production starts over again. But years are lost. Same with the Gren. First the Navy wants six vessels, mostly for coastal and littoral areas. But it should be well armed. Than they change their mind, reduce the weapon load, just to save a few bucks. Then Medveded/Serdukhov come along and decide, that the Mistral will be bought. The production is stopped for years.
    Sure

    Lack of money + unclear priorities + change of components + inefficient production--> delays --> need for redesign --> start the cycle again

    Definitely not looking good. Let's see if they manage to correct this trend
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    Post  Hole Fri May 18, 2018 6:08 pm

    Is already happening. Look at he Karakurt. Designed from the outset with all-russian systems. Navy is also on board (no pun intended), because there are now contracts with four (?) yards for 18+ ships.
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    Post  Singular_Transform Fri May 18, 2018 7:54 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    Sure

    Lack of money + unclear priorities + change of components + inefficient production--> delays --> need for redesign --> start the cycle again

    Definitely not looking good. Let's see if they manage to correct this trend


    They call it as "learning curve".
    Again, see ford carrier.
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    Post  LMFS Fri May 18, 2018 8:04 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    Sure

    Lack of money + unclear priorities + change of components + inefficient production--> delays --> need for redesign --> start the cycle again

    Definitely not looking good. Let's see if they manage to correct this trend


    They call it as "learning curve".
    Again, see ford carrier.
    The Ford case looks rather like a fiscal cliff, is not the best example of how things should work IMO.
    Of course I assume they will eventually get over it but the issue is when you are so ineffective you spend and spend and go nowhere. This non acceptable for the government since you lose money and get nothing in return. I am crossing my fingers to start seeing faster deliveries to the navy in coming years.
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    Post  Hole Fri May 18, 2018 11:18 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    Sure

    Lack of money + unclear priorities + change of components + inefficient production--> delays --> need for redesign --> start the cycle again

    Definitely not looking good. Let's see if they manage to correct this trend


    They call it as "learning curve".
    Again, see ford carrier.

    What do you mean? Ford is perfect... for the "shareholder" of the MIC.
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    Post  Singular_trafo Sat May 19, 2018 12:01 am

    LMFS wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    Sure

    Lack of money + unclear priorities + change of components + inefficient production--> delays --> need for redesign --> start the cycle again

    Definitely not looking good. Let's see if they manage to correct this trend


    They call it as "learning curve".
    Again, see ford carrier.
    The Ford case looks rather like a fiscal cliff, is not the best example of how things should work IMO.
    Of course I assume they will eventually get over it but the issue is when you are so ineffective you spend and spend and go nowhere. This non acceptable for the government since you lose money and get nothing in return. I am crossing my fingers to start seeing faster deliveries to the navy in coming years.

    Both case, the Ford (F35) and the Kazan is the result of the same problem, but with different solutions.

    The Ford main problems are the arresting and catapult systems.
    Both of them new and challenging design, and both of them manufactured by a company without any experience on the field.

    Due to that it takes one decade to mature the design - at least.
    With the Kazan the Russian MIC faced similar issue.
    The Yassen was a finished soviet submarine, but for the Kazan they had to rebuild the complete supply chain, re design major elements, create new businesses ,processes .

    The similarity ending here.

    With the Ford the US choose the path to aim the original schedule, and try to keep the cost low ( yes, this is the low cost version of the Ford building : ) )

    It means that they installed the systems without proper test, and finalized the ship design without proven equipment.

    To rub salt into the wound they already building the second and third carrier.

    Means that instead to say increase the arresting gear dimensions by 200mm, they have to spend enormous amount of money to found a way to fit the final equipment into the limited space.Or accept that the ship will not ever work as intended ( looks like this will be the favored solution (

    Te Russians simply stopped the construction process, and shifted the consecutive ships to the right.
    Means that they still have opportunity to modify the ship if it needed with way less cost.
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    Post  George1 Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:40 pm

    Under construction ships and submarines as of 01.06.18

    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Numbers - Page 8 58499_900

    https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/192082.html
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:49 pm

    Northern Design Bureau is designing an amphibious ship with a displacement of 8,000 tons for the RFN:
    https://iz.ru/756623/2018-06-18/dlia-vmf-proektiruiut-novyi-bolshoi-desantnyi-korabl
    for comparison, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistral-class_amphibious_assault_ship has
    Displacement: 16,500 tonnes (empty);

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ocean_(L12) has
    Displacement: 21,500 t (21,200 long tons; 23,700 short tons);

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dokdo-class_amphibious_assault_ship has Displacement: 14,300 tons (empty);

    Even the WWII CVEs were bigger, except 1:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escort_carrier

    Well, they have to start somewhere!
    Russia will begin to build helicopter carriers after 2020 - the deputy head of the Navy
    http://www.ng.ru/news/619476.html?print=Y

    Sponsored content


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