The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

Khepesh wrote:There have been a lot more flashmobs, in Ukraine, Donbass and Russia. Not going to make habit of posting all of them, just this latest one from Blagoveshchensk in Amur as it is one of the best renditions of Ukranian song, "You lied to me" that I have heard, and singing is in fact led by professional singer. In the last few days there has been poison injected into this phenomena by some questioning the motives, even locations and suggesting there are fakes. Well, oligarchs and politicians have money and power and don't like "the people" when they act "out of control" with the "wrong message"......

Are there Ukrainians in exile there? Would this be some of them?

What's going on with this?


Soft" Genocide: Kiev shuts off water and electricity to Lugansk
December 3, 2016 -
By Eduard Popov for Fort Russ - translated by J. Arnoldski -



http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/12/soft-genocide-kiev-shuts-off-water-and.html

Ukraine’s actions are no surprise. The only surprise is the actions of the leaders of the Donetsk republics, especially LPR head Igor Plotnitsky. In October of last year, the Minister of Fuel, Energy, and Coal Industry of the LPR, Dmitry Lyamin, was arrested for ordering enormous volumes of coal produced in the republic to go to Ukraine. This helped Ukrainian energy stations keep running thanks to acutely scarce Donbass coal. As a result, Ukraine was saved from energy collapse last winter. This problematic situation was compounded by the fact that the LPR received no money or tax revenues from the coal supply. Lyamin’s arrest was made in the absence of Plotnitsky and aroused his anger. The next day, Lyamin was released from custody on the personal order of Plotnitsky…

more on link...

Good luck to them, they seem really nice people and don't deserve all that has happened to them.

Cowboy's daughter wrote:

Are there Ukrainians in exile there? Would this be some of them?

Not "exile", simply at home. A friend of mine lives in Komsomolsk-na-Amur, he was born there. His grandfather was from Chernigov. Anatoly Shary lives in real exile in an EU country, otherwise some of these people in Blagoveshchensk are Russians with origins in far west of Russia living in far east of Russia, so it's all Russia and they cannot be exiles. The closest they could be said to be "exiles" is if any of their ancestors were "internal exiles" from years past. Of course it could be that some have fled Ukraine since 2014, but I doubt anybody would go to far east if they did not have relatives already living there, which shows that the divisions are artificial and that the border between Russia and Ukraine is essentially a type of Berlin Wall, well, a little exageration, but I think the point will be seen.

...the divisions are artificial and that the border between Russia and Ukraine is essentially a type of Berlin Wall...

Khepesh, the above statement you made is excellent.

Some Russian politicians (including Zhirinovsky of course) should often use "Berlin Wall" type analogies when publicly talking about differences between Russians and Ukrainians.

Khepesh wrote:

Cowboy's daughter wrote:

Are there Ukrainians in exile there? Would this be some of them?

Not "exile", simply at home. A friend of mine lives in Komsomolsk-na-Amur, he was born there. His grandfather was from Chernigov. Anatoly Shary lives in real exile in an EU country, otherwise some of these people in Blagoveshchensk are Russians with origins in far west of Russia living in far east of Russia, so it's all Russia and they cannot be exiles. The closest they could be said to be "exiles" is if any of their ancestors were "internal exiles" from years past. Of course it could be that some have fled Ukraine since 2014, but I doubt anybody would go to far east if they did not have relatives already living there, which shows that the divisions are artificial and that the border between Russia and Ukraine is essentially a type of Berlin Wall, well, a little exageration, but I think the point will be seen.

Thank you, Khepesh!

Cowboy's daughter wrote:Patrick Lancaster ‏@PLnewstoday 6h6 hours ago

#Ukraine near Kiev: 5 police officers have been shot and killed by other police officers in a assumed case of "mistaken identity"

It was apparently a stake-out awaiting some burglars. There were teams from two different 'law enforcement' agencies who didn't realise the other was there. Cue disaster.

HACKERS SPRUT POSTED EXCLUSIVE DOCUMENTS ON THE REFORM OF THE UKRAINIAN ARMY TO NATO STANDARDS

http://news-front.info/2016/12/06/xakery-sprut-vylozhili-eksklyuzivnye-dokumenty-po-reformirovaniyu-ukrainskoj-armii-pod-standarty-nato/

Khepesh wrote:It cannot be that Krasnodar is Russian yet Odessa is not.

It is, look at a map.

And I don't give a rat's ass about these 'historical Russian territories', while the people of them are all signing 'hang the Moskals', burning protestors in buildings, or whatever else.
You think that something like the Odessa trade union house massacre could ever happen in Krasnodar? Thankfully not. That's another reason why Krasnodar is Russia and Odessa isn't.

The land belongs to the people there as far as I'm concerned, the Russian empire and its legacy is long gone.
So I say let them do what they want - if they want to believe the nationalist brainwashing and 'nation building' efforts of their political elite in Kiev, and believe that they will benefit from all this, that there are no threats to the Russian language (or have gotten to the point where they agree that the very language native to them and their families should be stamped out in the Ukraine over the next 1-2 generations) - well then leave them to it. I'm all for continuing to cut all possible ties with this 3rd world mess.

flamming_python wrote:

Khepesh wrote:It cannot be that Krasnodar is Russian yet Odessa is not.

It is, look at a map.

And I don't give a rat's ass about these 'historical Russian territories', while the people of them are all signing 'hang the Moskals', burning protestors in buildings, or whatever else.
You think that something like the Odessa trade union house massacre could ever happen in Krasnodar? Thankfully not. That's another reason why Krasnodar is Russia and Odessa isn't.

The land belongs to the people there as far as I'm concerned, the Russian empire and its legacy is long gone.
So I say let them do what they want - if they want to believe the nationalist brainwashing and 'nation building' efforts of their political elite in Kiev, and believe that they will benefit from all this, that there are no threats to the Russian language (or have gotten to the point where they agree that the very language native to them and their families should be stamped out in the Ukraine over the next 1-2 generations) - well then leave them to it. I'm all for continuing to cut all possible ties with this 3rd world mess.

You seem confused by what I wrote, as I most certainly did not state that Krasnodar is not in Russia, did I....

As for your opinion on the people of Odessa, it is simply that, your opinion. Perhaps you should shout at Zacharchenko about this as he sees Odessa as Russian, and all of Novorossiya.

As for legacy of Empire, then what do you want, that Russia contracts to the pre Ivan IV borders as everything else is a product of empire building, goodbye Siberia?

By casting off Odessa and all Novorossiya you then agree with the treason committed 25 years ago today?

flamming_python wrote:

Khepesh wrote:It cannot be that Krasnodar is Russian yet Odessa is not.

It is, look at a map.

And I don't give a rat's ass about these 'historical Russian territories', while the people of them are all signing 'hang the Moskals', burning protestors in buildings, or whatever else.
You think that something like the Odessa trade union house massacre could ever happen in Krasnodar? Thankfully not. That's another reason why Krasnodar is Russia and Odessa isn't.

The land belongs to the people there as far as I'm concerned, the Russian empire and its legacy is long gone.
So I say let them do what they want - if they want to believe the nationalist brainwashing and 'nation building' efforts of their political elite in Kiev, and believe that they will benefit from all this, that there are no threats to the Russian language (or have gotten to the point where they agree that the very language native to them and their families should be stamped out in the Ukraine over the next 1-2 generations) - well then leave them to it. I'm all for continuing to cut all possible ties with this 3rd world mess.

I disagree with you on your views.
I am not Russian. So, there is no nationalistic or patriotic bias in me in this matter.

The majority of Odessa residents (and of Novorossiya in general) are not happy about what is happening in their country. But they are too afraid to do much about it because of the repressive and brutal junta rulers and their radical thugs.
You may call them cowards for doing nothing, but they are still Russian (the majority of them) and would like to see things change. They pray and wish to see the day when they are liberated.
Do not discard them and abandon them, on the contrary give them hope until the day comes.

For those amongst them who have drunk too much Maydan Kool-Aid and are irreversibly polluted but still alive, there is always the firing squad, jail, exile, rope around neck etc. etc.

Khepesh wrote:As for legacy of Empire, then what do you want, that Russia contracts to the pre Ivan IV borders as everything else is a product of empire building, goodbye Siberia?

Siberia is (mostly) Czarist legacy.

Siberia begins under Ivan IV in 1582 with Ermak expedition. It is of course the case that the empire is dated from Peter the Great, but to me that is splitting hairs, as the taking of Kazan and subsequent advance over the Urals into Siberia looks very much like empire building to me, and Peter the Great and then Catherine simply expanded on what was an already ongoing process. To me it is a matter of the territory, not whether it is before or after Peter.

So the NAF is identifying it's vehicles for air support now...

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2310953.html

For drones, unless the one Su-25 has super powers and can be in several different locations at the same time.

flamming_python wrote:

Khepesh wrote:It cannot be that Krasnodar is Russian yet Odessa is not.

It is, look at a map.

And I don't give a rat's ass about these 'historical Russian territories', while the people of them are all signing 'hang the Moskals', burning protestors in buildings, or whatever else.
You think that something like the Odessa trade union house massacre could ever happen in Krasnodar? Thankfully not. That's another reason why Krasnodar is Russia and Odessa isn't.

The land belongs to the people there as far as I'm concerned, the Russian empire and its legacy is long gone.
So I say let them do what they want - if they want to believe the nationalist brainwashing and 'nation building' efforts of their political elite in Kiev, and believe that they will benefit from all this, that there are no threats to the Russian language (or have gotten to the point where they agree that the very language native to them and their families should be stamped out in the Ukraine over the next 1-2 generations) - well then leave them to it. I'm all for continuing to cut all possible ties with this 3rd world mess.

Russia is not an empire today. It is a big country inhabited mostly by Russian population. In relative terms (% of its population) Russia would not be today in the Top-10 of European countries with largest (sum of) minority population.

I also think the population of a territory has something to say about its identity. And repression is not something that changes it. In the Basque region of Navarre, over a 1% of the population was executed in the late 1930s. We keep still our identity today and we keep finding the mass graves, despite the military imposition continued. In the last, a mother pregnant has been found this year, with 6 of her 7 children, aged between 1 and 16 years old. All killed, all executed.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BLQ3ikTBsVm/ (images of September-October 2016)

More than a 1% of the population executed in terms of the city of Odessa (only) would mean more than 10000 persons executed. This was the dimension of the fascist terror in my native country. And was not enough to eliminate our identity. It is not how it works.

eehnie wrote:I also think the population of a territory has something to say about its identity. And repression is not something that changes it. In the Basque region of Navarre, over a 1% of the population was executed in the late 1930s. We keep still our identity today and we keep finding the mass graves, despite the military imposition continued. In the last, a mother pregnant has been found this year, with 6 of her 7 children, aged between 1 and 16 years old. All killed, all executed.

More than a 1% of the population executed in terms of the city of Odessa (only) would mean more than 10000 persons executed. This was the dimension of the fascist terror in my native country. And was not enough to eliminate our identity. It is not how it works.

The fact that Navarre had it's own identity was the reason behind the crimes of the 30s and 40s.

Khepesh wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

Khepesh wrote:It cannot be that Krasnodar is Russian yet Odessa is not.

It is, look at a map.

And I don't give a rat's ass about these 'historical Russian territories', while the people of them are all signing 'hang the Moskals', burning protestors in buildings, or whatever else.
You think that something like the Odessa trade union house massacre could ever happen in Krasnodar? Thankfully not. That's another reason why Krasnodar is Russia and Odessa isn't.

The land belongs to the people there as far as I'm concerned, the Russian empire and its legacy is long gone.
So I say let them do what they want - if they want to believe the nationalist brainwashing and 'nation building' efforts of their political elite in Kiev, and believe that they will benefit from all this, that there are no threats to the Russian language (or have gotten to the point where they agree that the very language native to them and their families should be stamped out in the Ukraine over the next 1-2 generations) - well then leave them to it. I'm all for continuing to cut all possible ties with this 3rd world mess.

You seem confused by what I wrote, as I most certainly did not state that Krasnodar is not in Russia, did I....

As for your opinion on the people of Odessa, it is simply that, your opinion. Perhaps you should shout at Zacharchenko about this as he sees Odessa as Russian, and all of Novorossiya.

As for legacy of Empire, then what do you want, that Russia contracts to the pre Ivan IV borders as everything else is a product of empire building, goodbye Siberia?

By casting off Odessa and all Novorossiya you then agree with the treason committed 25 years ago today?

What treason?
1990 referendum how many Ukrainians voted for independence? Remind me.

They made their choice, there was no 'treason', popular will, self-determination and democracy were all respected. You can blame Kravchuk all you want for being a 'traitor' but in reality he did exactly what he should have done as a politician - gave a voice to the popular desire of his constituency and acted on that voice; and without any excess retardation ala. Gamsakhurdia.
The only that's happened since is that back then there was still a Soviet-mentality, with its ingrained internationalist, humanitarian principles - it was a powerful bullwark against any sort of venomous anti-Russian nationalism (that would sadly eventually take over and win the hearts and minds of the active younger generation) and the Ukraine even though independent had every chance to become a success story and moreover, to preserve close brotherly ties with Russia. That was not treason, any more than Belarus or Kazakhstan becoming independent was treason (well for them you can make such a case actually, because unlike the Ukraine they didn't vote for it).

Goodbye Siberia? Pre Ivan IV borders? WhAt? No-one's discussing that; those areas don't want to seperate and they were never seperated from core Russia nor had any justification to be.

Anyhow I think the Ukraine is ultimately a doomed country. There really is scarce need to do anything; let alone grab its territory - that would only prolong the violence and agony there. Cut-off all ties to the Ukraine and I think gradually everything will work out; more independent republics will eventually form and all the rest of it. But you need to leave the people there to come to their own conclusions and get off the nationalist cool-aid, not force them into something.

Clearly you only came back here to have a shit, so I will not engage further.

Khepesh wrote:Clearly you only came back here to have a shit, so I will not engage further.

Sorry Khepesh, truth hurts but someone has to say it.

TheArmenian wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

Khepesh wrote:It cannot be that Krasnodar is Russian yet Odessa is not.

It is, look at a map.

And I don't give a rat's ass about these 'historical Russian territories', while the people of them are all signing 'hang the Moskals', burning protestors in buildings, or whatever else.
You think that something like the Odessa trade union house massacre could ever happen in Krasnodar? Thankfully not. That's another reason why Krasnodar is Russia and Odessa isn't.

The land belongs to the people there as far as I'm concerned, the Russian empire and its legacy is long gone.
So I say let them do what they want - if they want to believe the nationalist brainwashing and 'nation building' efforts of their political elite in Kiev, and believe that they will benefit from all this, that there are no threats to the Russian language (or have gotten to the point where they agree that the very language native to them and their families should be stamped out in the Ukraine over the next 1-2 generations) - well then leave them to it. I'm all for continuing to cut all possible ties with this 3rd world mess.

I disagree with you on your views.
I am not Russian. So, there is no nationalistic or patriotic bias in me in this matter.

The majority of Odessa residents (and of Novorossiya in general) are not happy about what is happening in their country. But they are too afraid to do much about it because of the repressive and brutal junta rulers and their radical thugs.
You may call them cowards for doing nothing, but they are still Russian (the majority of them) and would like to see things change. They pray and wish to see the day when they are liberated.
Do not discard them and abandon them, on the contrary give them hope until the day comes.

For those amongst them who have drunk too much Maydan Kool-Aid and are irreversibly polluted but still alive, there is always the firing squad, jail, exile, rope around neck etc. etc.

If they are apathetic enough to do absolutely nothing while their own neighbours are slaughtered for protesting, make excuses for how the Russian language and identity is in fact not being strangled in the Ukraine, and come to identify with their tormentors in some twisted form of Stockholm syndrome and start to blame those protestors for 'provocations' or heap everything on evil Putler - then that cannot be excused or ignored either.
Again I pose the question - can anyone imagine something like this happening anywhere in Russia? Alien anti-Russian nationalists half of whom don't speak the Russian language (or refuse to do so) orchestrating a brutal mass-pogrom and killing while half the city makes excuses for them? That sort of thing doesn't happen in the Caucasus or Tuva or any ethnic republic either. But yet it happens in Odessa, oh that most Russian of cities.
Let these people deal with their own problems, I don't want to lift a finger on their behalf quite frankly nor make any promises of salvation or liberation when in fact their destiny is purely in their own hands and no-one else's. If they start a rebellion and arm themselves then I'll be fully in favour of assisting them in every way possible.

flamming_python wrote:

TheArmenian wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

Khepesh wrote:It cannot be that Krasnodar is Russian yet Odessa is not.

It is, look at a map.

And I don't give a rat's ass about these 'historical Russian territories', while the people of them are all signing 'hang the Moskals', burning protestors in buildings, or whatever else.
You think that something like the Odessa trade union house massacre could ever happen in Krasnodar? Thankfully not. That's another reason why Krasnodar is Russia and Odessa isn't.

The land belongs to the people there as far as I'm concerned, the Russian empire and its legacy is long gone.
So I say let them do what they want - if they want to believe the nationalist brainwashing and 'nation building' efforts of their political elite in Kiev, and believe that they will benefit from all this, that there are no threats to the Russian language (or have gotten to the point where they agree that the very language native to them and their families should be stamped out in the Ukraine over the next 1-2 generations) - well then leave them to it. I'm all for continuing to cut all possible ties with this 3rd world mess.

I disagree with you on your views.
I am not Russian. So, there is no nationalistic or patriotic bias in me in this matter.

The majority of Odessa residents (and of Novorossiya in general) are not happy about what is happening in their country. But they are too afraid to do much about it because of the repressive and brutal junta rulers and their radical thugs.
You may call them cowards for doing nothing, but they are still Russian (the majority of them) and would like to see things change. They pray and wish to see the day when they are liberated.
Do not discard them and abandon them, on the contrary give them hope until the day comes.

For those amongst them who have drunk too much Maydan Kool-Aid and are irreversibly polluted but still alive, there is always the firing squad, jail, exile, rope around neck etc. etc.

If they are apathetic enough to do absolutely nothing while their own neighbours are slaughtered for protesting, make excuses for how the Russian language and identity is in fact not being strangled in the Ukraine, and come to identify with their tormentors in some twisted form of Stockholm syndrome and start to blame those protestors for 'provocations' or heap everything on evil Putler - then that cannot be excused or ignored either.
Again I pose the question - can anyone imagine something like this happening anywhere in Russia? Alien anti-Russian nationalists half of whom don't speak the Russian language (or refuse to do so) orchestrating a brutal mass-pogrom and killing while half the city makes excuses for them? That sort of thing doesn't happen in the Caucasus or Tuva or any ethnic republic either. But yet it happens in Odessa, oh that most Russian of cities.
Let these people deal with their own problems, I don't want to lift a finger on their behalf quite frankly nor make any promises of salvation or liberation when in fact their destiny is purely in their own hands and no-one else's. If they start a rebellion and arm themselves then I'll be fully in favour of assisting them in every way possible.

Imagine an Odessa resident who is against all the Meydan sh*t read what you just wrote.

The motherland should never abandon the people. Just like a shepherd does not abandon the lost sheep.

TheArmenian wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

TheArmenian wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

Khepesh wrote:It cannot be that Krasnodar is Russian yet Odessa is not.

It is, look at a map.

And I don't give a rat's ass about these 'historical Russian territories', while the people of them are all signing 'hang the Moskals', burning protestors in buildings, or whatever else.
You think that something like the Odessa trade union house massacre could ever happen in Krasnodar? Thankfully not. That's another reason why Krasnodar is Russia and Odessa isn't.

The land belongs to the people there as far as I'm concerned, the Russian empire and its legacy is long gone.
So I say let them do what they want - if they want to believe the nationalist brainwashing and 'nation building' efforts of their political elite in Kiev, and believe that they will benefit from all this, that there are no threats to the Russian language (or have gotten to the point where they agree that the very language native to them and their families should be stamped out in the Ukraine over the next 1-2 generations) - well then leave them to it. I'm all for continuing to cut all possible ties with this 3rd world mess.

I disagree with you on your views.
I am not Russian. So, there is no nationalistic or patriotic bias in me in this matter.

The majority of Odessa residents (and of Novorossiya in general) are not happy about what is happening in their country. But they are too afraid to do much about it because of the repressive and brutal junta rulers and their radical thugs.
You may call them cowards for doing nothing, but they are still Russian (the majority of them) and would like to see things change. They pray and wish to see the day when they are liberated.
Do not discard them and abandon them, on the contrary give them hope until the day comes.

For those amongst them who have drunk too much Maydan Kool-Aid and are irreversibly polluted but still alive, there is always the firing squad, jail, exile, rope around neck etc. etc.

If they are apathetic enough to do absolutely nothing while their own neighbours are slaughtered for protesting, make excuses for how the Russian language and identity is in fact not being strangled in the Ukraine, and come to identify with their tormentors in some twisted form of Stockholm syndrome and start to blame those protestors for 'provocations' or heap everything on evil Putler - then that cannot be excused or ignored either.
Again I pose the question - can anyone imagine something like this happening anywhere in Russia? Alien anti-Russian nationalists half of whom don't speak the Russian language (or refuse to do so) orchestrating a brutal mass-pogrom and killing while half the city makes excuses for them? That sort of thing doesn't happen in the Caucasus or Tuva or any ethnic republic either. But yet it happens in Odessa, oh that most Russian of cities.
Let these people deal with their own problems, I don't want to lift a finger on their behalf quite frankly nor make any promises of salvation or liberation when in fact their destiny is purely in their own hands and no-one else's. If they start a rebellion and arm themselves then I'll be fully in favour of assisting them in every way possible.

Imagine an Odessa resident who is against all the Meydan sh*t read what you just wrote.

The motherland should never abandon the people. Just like a shepherd does not abandon the lost sheep.

If he's so against it then he should fight against it, and not just sit while his city has been taken over by the Unclean.
No matter if it means leaving for Russia and supporting the rebellion with money, joining the DNR/LNR, or some sort of dissent or partisan actions in Odessa. Many ways and forms of resistance.
I certainly don't advocate abandoning any such people.

I am sure you remember the hundreds of thousands of Odessites on the protest marches chanting: "Odessa Russky Gorod" and "Odessa Gorod Georoya".

They did what they could, they were attacked by the meydan mob, beaten and burned. They were defeated. They cannot raise a finger against the junta regime at the moment. They will have to wait for the right moment to rise again.

Few people (from any country) can do what you are expecting to do: take arms, kill and get killed, be a partisan. Those who could are already in the DNR/LNR armed forces.

You are entitled to your opinion of course , personally I think you should empathize with the silent majority of Novorossiya residents. They need to have hope and not feel abandoned.

TheArmenian wrote:I am sure you remember the hundreds of thousands of Odessites on the protest marches chanting: "Odessa Russky Gorod" and "Odessa Gorod Georoya".

They did what they could, they were attacked by the meydan mob, beaten and burned. They were defeated. They cannot raise a finger against the junta regime at the moment. They will have to wait for the right moment to rise again.

Few people (from any country) can do what you are expecting to do: take arms, kill and get killed, be a partisan. Those who could are already in the DNR/LNR armed forces.

You are entitled to your opinion of course , personally I think you should empathize with the silent majority of Novorossiya residents. They need to have hope and not feel abandoned.

I'm not sure if they're the majority any more - if they were the majority then they would have rebelled just like the Crimea and Donbass did. Why did the Maidenites fail to entrench themselves in those regions, if not because they were genuinely not welcomed there? The Maidanuts travelling circuses of gangs and activists were beaten to a pulp every time they turned up in Donetsk or Lugansk, and once the SBU secret police attempted to arrest the street protest leaders - people started to take weapons into their hands.
And that's what would happen if the Ukrainian nationalists/authorities tried that sh*t in any Russian city too that inexplicably ended up under Ukrainian jurisdiction tomorrow. Yup even here in St. Petersburg with our hordes of hipsters, draft-dodgers and weakling middle-class suburbanite types.
Contrast this to Odessa where a huge amount of activists and protestors were butchered and everyone simply shrugged their shoulders and kept on about their business.

I don't know how to explain it - effectiveness of Ukrainian nationalist propaganda, pro-Russians voting with their feet and leaving en masse, some sort of mass apathy or Stockholm syndrome, but it is what it is.