flamming_python Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:03 pm
Khepesh wrote:It cannot be that Krasnodar is Russian yet Odessa is not.
It is, look at a map.
And I don't give a rat's ass about these 'historical Russian territories', while the people of them are all signing 'hang the Moskals', burning protestors in buildings, or whatever else.
You think that something like the Odessa trade union house massacre could ever happen in Krasnodar? Thankfully not. That's another reason why Krasnodar is Russia and Odessa isn't.
The land belongs to the people there as far as I'm concerned, the Russian empire and its legacy is long gone.
So I say let them do what they want - if they want to believe the nationalist brainwashing and 'nation building' efforts of their political elite in Kiev, and believe that they will benefit from all this, that there are no threats to the Russian language (or have gotten to the point where they agree that the very language native to them and their families should be stamped out in the Ukraine over the next 1-2 generations) - well then leave them to it. I'm all for continuing to cut all possible ties with this 3rd world mess.
You seem confused by what I wrote, as I most certainly did not state that Krasnodar is not in Russia, did I....
As for your opinion on the people of Odessa, it is simply that, your opinion. Perhaps you should shout at Zacharchenko about this as he sees Odessa as Russian, and all of Novorossiya.
As for legacy of Empire, then what do you want, that Russia contracts to the pre Ivan IV borders as everything else is a product of empire building, goodbye Siberia?
By casting off Odessa and all Novorossiya you then agree with the treason committed 25 years ago today?
1990 referendum how many Ukrainians voted for independence? Remind me.
They made their choice, there was no 'treason', popular will, self-determination and democracy were all respected. You can blame Kravchuk all you want for being a 'traitor' but in reality he did exactly what he should have done as a politician - gave a voice to the popular desire of his constituency and acted on that voice; and without any excess retardation ala. Gamsakhurdia.
The only that's happened since is that back then there was still a Soviet-mentality, with its ingrained internationalist, humanitarian principles - it was a powerful bullwark against any sort of venomous anti-Russian nationalism (that would sadly eventually take over and win the hearts and minds of the active younger generation) and the Ukraine even though independent had every chance to become a success story and moreover, to preserve close brotherly ties with Russia. That was not treason, any more than Belarus or Kazakhstan becoming independent was treason (well for them you can make such a case actually, because unlike the Ukraine they didn't vote for it).
Goodbye Siberia? Pre Ivan IV borders? WhAt? No-one's discussing that; those areas don't want to seperate and they were never seperated from core Russia nor had any justification to be.
Anyhow I think the Ukraine is ultimately a doomed country. There really is scarce need to do anything; let alone grab its territory - that would only prolong the violence and agony there. Cut-off all ties to the Ukraine and I think gradually everything will work out; more independent republics will eventually form and all the rest of it. But you need to leave the people there to come to their own conclusions and get off the nationalist cool-aid, not force them into something.