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    Tank Warfare: Russian Armour vs Western Armour

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:29 pm

    10 mln RUB a piece. That is solid money bro! Laughing Laughing
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:06 pm

    The production lines they are taking them from are for export, so we are talking the monkey model even if it is brand new production it will have export equipment so it wont be as good as an upgraded older US tank.

    Would they include new ammo... the Russians have already said the use of DU ammo in this conflict in western weapons would be considered the use of a dirty nuke and they will respond accordingly... which sounds rather sinister.

    I wonder if the west will ignore that too.

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    Post  lyle6 Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:13 pm

    For the first time Russian gunners might have to sweat a little and aim at weakspots.

    Putler loosen the purse strings and give your soldiers T-14 with Vacuum-1s! Twisted Evil

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    Post  ALAMO Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:18 pm

    What for? Laughing

    Have you watched closely this drone material with the sole tank castrating the entire column?

    Have you noticed what kind of ammo they have used?

    And finally, have you noticed how the HEAT ammo used pierced those poor bastards from side to side, and the jet was still powerful enough to hit the earth 20-30m away from the already wreckage?

    Yup ... Laughing

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    Post  lyle6 Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:31 pm

    I was referring to that video where the Russian tankers where studying a L2 chart. Sheesh. Is this forum getting dumber or what?

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    Post  galicije83 Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:11 pm

    Last time ONLY in T-90M you can use latest 3BMs, in all other modernized T-72/80 you can only use it old ones 3BMs...If you wanna use this new autoloader made for T-90M you need to change HULL to put this new autoloader in it..Russian do not made this changes on any T-72 YET...only the made change for T-90M because they made brand new HULL...

    This is main reason for not using this new type of 3BMs in their older tanks...also one more thing..they do not made it YET this new 3BM59/60 great numbers because old MANGO can pen from front any tank west sent to UKR...because only 30% of any NATO tank is immune to the 3BM-42 or 3BM48..so why spend lot of money of this big changes when you can made fast modernization and sent this tank to the front easly....
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    Post  Hole Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:54 pm

    Tank Warfare: Russian Armour vs Western Armour - Page 25 0051_b10
    A pic with the weak spots of the Leo2.

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    Post  ALAMO Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:56 pm

    Again, it is not true that "old" autoloaders can handle only 640 mm ammo cartridges as you said.
    I am not even sure where you took this from, as most of the projectiles in use today are longer than that.
    T-72/A/M/M1 can use 680mm.
    T-72B can use 695 mm.
    T-72B3 mod. 2016 can use Sviniets 1&2. It is not a secret, the thing was officially claimed in the tender documentation.
    T-90/A/M can use them either.
    A hint : back in 2016, 3BM59/60 were already in serial production, widely commented on and documented. Won't address the rumors claiming that limited production was running since 2002 or 2005 ...
    Wonder what tanks would use them back then  dunno  Wink
    The only unclear (not objectively confirmed) thing is if the T-90M can use Vacuum 1&2 that comes along with T-14, BUT ... the solution to this problem is already resolved.

    E'voila :
    Tank Warfare: Russian Armour vs Western Armour - Page 25 Scale_10
    Tank Warfare: Russian Armour vs Western Armour - Page 25 Scale_12
    Tank Warfare: Russian Armour vs Western Armour - Page 25 Scale_11

    As a standard T-90 AZ autoloader can hold a 740 mm long 3BM59&60, how to fit a 900 mm long Vacuum? Just by cutting hole into side of a hull, that is 80+80 mm - exactly the lacking 160 mm length. And cover it from the outside by welding the plates on it, under the traction.

    A pic with the weak spots of the Leo2.

    The other side bro. There is where the ammo rack is located, covered with some ... +/- 200 mm RHAe. Kabooming it in any urban warfare will be trivial.

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    Post  lyle6 Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:20 pm

    Svinets-1/2 is in serial production.
    Tank Warfare: Russian Armour vs Western Armour - Page 25 HAAffTr

    ALAMO wrote:As a standard T-90 AZ autoloader can hold a 740 mm long 3BM59&60, how to fit a 900 mm long Vacuum? Just by cutting hole into side of a hull, that is 80+80 mm - exactly the lacking 160 mm length. And cover it from the outside by welding the plates on it, under the traction.
    Wut? That only gives space for one round, where are they getting the other 160 mm from?

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    Post  ALAMO Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:25 pm

    My guess is again the central hub and the ammo computer. dunno

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    Post  Kiko Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:58 pm

    "Leopard" vs. T-90: which tank will change the course of the conflict in Ukraine, by Andrey Kots for RIANOVOSTI. 01.30.2023.

    The 1130 horsepower diesel engine, together with the transmission units, forms a monoblock system - this facilitates maintenance and repair. The maximum speed on the highway is 70 kilometers per hour, the cruising range is 550 kilometers. In addition, there is an auxiliary power unit that provides electricity for electronic equipment when the main engine is turned off.

    Descendants of the Tigers

    Now the Armed Forces of Ukraine will have the most colorful tank fleet in the world. Along with the still combat-ready T-64 and T-72, the American M1A2 Abrams, German Leopard 2 and British Challenger 2 will enter service. If France and Italy join, Leclerc and C1 Ariete will be added.

    These are modern and formidable machines. They are especially dangerous if they go on the offensive on a narrow sector of the front.

    The most powerful is the Leopard, the second largest main battle tank in NATO after the Abrams. It was developed during the Cold War and modernized several times. Kyiv was promised modifications of A4, A5 and A6. The Germans have no more than a hundred of the most modern A7+..

    Leopard 2 is a classic tank. The engine compartment is in the rear of the vehicle, the combat compartment is in the middle, and the control is in the front. Crew of four: commander, driver, gunner and loader.

    The gun is a Rheinmetall smoothbore, caliber 120 mm. Engine - 1500 horsepower. The maximum speed on the highway is 72 kilometers per hour, the cruising range is up to 550 kilometers.

    The A4 variant was produced in the second half of the 1980s. Then they significantly improved the armor protection of the tower, increased the survivability of the crew, provided more powerful shells, and upgraded the ballistic computer. This modification is the most "belligerent" to this day: for example, it is actively used by Turkey in Syria.

    The A5 version is from the 1990s. The forehead and sides of the turret were covered with spaced armor modules, and the gun mantlet was completely redesigned. The driver's hatch was also redesigned, which improved visibility. The electro-hydraulic gun stabilization system was replaced with a fully electric one, the gunner received an upgraded sight, and the commander received a second-generation independent thermal imager built into a panoramic observation device. The tank was also provided with a GPS navigation system.

    In the A6, the turret was made even stronger, and mine protection was added. The length of the gun barrel was increased by 11 calibers. The muzzle energy, the muzzle velocity of the shells have also grown, and, as a result, their armor penetration and range of destruction.

    Increased survivability

    The most dangerous enemy of the German "cats" is the T-90M, the most modern Russian tank. This is a deeply revised version of the machine, adopted in the 1990s. The modernized turret has a developed aft niche with ammunition. Under normal conditions, the firing compartment is isolated from the fighting compartment and the crew, which dramatically increases survivability.

    The forehead of the hull and turret are covered with combined armor with additional overhead protection. From cumulative ammunition covers the complex of dynamic protection of the "Relikt" type, capable of repelling a shot even from the most modern western anti-tank systems. Especially for the T-90M, they created multi-layer covers "Cape", which reduce the visibility of the machine in various ranges and reduce the detection range.

    The 1130 horsepower diesel engine, together with the transmission units, forms a monoblock system - this facilitates maintenance and repair. The maximum speed on the highway is 70 kilometers per hour, the cruising range is 550 kilometers. In addition, there is an auxiliary power unit that provides electricity for electronic equipment when the main engine is turned off.

    This feature makes the tank ideal for ambush attacks. For example, one of the predecessors, the T-72B3, first needs to start a rather noisy engine to fire.

    In addition, the T-90M is perfectly oriented on the battlefield. The fire control system "Kalina" has a combined day-night sight of the gunner "Sosna-U" and a panoramic sight of the PAN commander. There is a target tracking machine, a two-plane armament stabilizer, friend or foe identification equipment, and navigation aids. According to the observation devices, the machine is in no way inferior to its Western counterparts.

    Many factors

    In general, the Leopard 2 for the T-90M is not so invulnerable. Experts say that the armor of German vehicles is effective only at distances over 2000 meters.

    “Plus, these tanks, unlike Russian ones, are not equipped with dynamic protection against cumulative ammunition. At line-of-sight ranges of up to 1,500 meters or less, which are typical for the terrain in Ukraine, the armor of NATO tanks will confidently penetrate the shells of Russian 2A46 tank guns,” the chief explained. editor of the magazine "Arsenal of the Fatherland" Viktor Murakhovsky.

    However, the Leopard's cannon pierces the T-90M head-on from the same distances. The advantage of the Russian car can be attributed to a lower profile, which allows you to disguise yourself in the folds of the terrain. "Cat" is much more noticeable. True, he has more advanced observation devices and a thermal imager.

    The success of a particular machine on the battlefield does not always depend on the nominal performance characteristics. The decisive factors are the level of crew training, intelligence, interaction with other units, stable communications. In addition, the worst enemy of a tank on the battlefield is not another tank, grenade launcher or ATGM operator, but an attack helicopter.

    The Leopards are a good target for the Ka-52, which carries up to 12 Vikhr-M anti-tank missiles. Each - with a tandem cumulative fragmentation warhead weighing 8-12 kilograms. Hitting the thin armor of the turret roof or engine compartment is guaranteed to destroy any tank. The range is ten kilometers, which covers the range of Western MANPADS and allows you to aim without entering the air defense zone. And given the size, it will be very difficult for Western vehicles to hide.

    https://ria.ru/20230130/tanki-1848415272.html

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    Post  Regular Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:11 pm

    ALAMO wrote: I put that in Ukrainian thread already, but fits here either.

    Some reports that "burning T-90M" from a week ago or so, was de facto Nakidka cover on fire after the ATGM strike. Tank was fine.

    Was this from the drone footage? Tank was penetrated judging by longer video, fire at 0:16 comes from two hatches and two crew guys escape

    Nakidka didn’t burn and tank was smouldering. Probably could be used for parts at worse (fire extinguishing systems worked) if recovered

    Tank Warfare: Russian Armour vs Western Armour - Page 25 89b42510
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    Post  ALAMO Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:16 pm

    Yeah, I guess that is the one - no more 90M claims were made at that time.
    But honestly, I hardly can spot if that is 90M on that film.
    And haven't seen any other.

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    ludovicense
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    Post  ludovicense Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:49 pm

    Here's a short video from the biggest Brazilian military channel.
    He analyzes the complications of operating the predicted 31 Abrams in the Ukrainian wartime setting.
    Very interesting. It's in Portuguese but it's subtitled in English and dozens of other languages on YouTube.

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    Post  thegopnik Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:16 am

    Tank Warfare: Russian Armour vs Western Armour - Page 25 600px-10
    Tank Warfare: Russian Armour vs Western Armour - Page 25 T80arm10

    http://wap.btvt.info/3attackdefensemobility/germes.htm

    Alright which Russian ATGM has the most penetration? Any updates on the land launched 100km Hermes? because those missiles would work beautifully well with Russian helicopters that can identify tanks 100kms away on radar.
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    Post  ALAMO Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:19 am

    Make all the numbers for M1 double, because why not?
    Oh shit, bro, make it triple!
    Will look nice!

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    Post  limb Mon Feb 06, 2023 4:09 am

    Whats then history behind steel beasts giving such insane numbers for armor strength on all western tanks?
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    Post  lyle6 Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:14 am

    NATO uses their sims for training.

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    Post  thegopnik Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:32 am

    don't we have any other reliable armor info on western tanks? anyone got an agreement on the m829A4 on having 880mm penetration values or no?
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    Post  ALAMO Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:24 pm

    We do have reliable estimations if only someone with a clue is providing them.
    It is not a rocket science, you know.
    The only thing one must have is a wider picture assisted by some historical knowledge.

    West made its mythology - because it is nothing else than that - for ages.
    Bullshit how superb they are, how great they are etc was provided for so long, that they have believed in that.

    When WWII ended, the Soviets were an absolute masterclass in armored warfare.
    IS-3 paraded in Berlin in 1945! was an absolute killer that nobody could match. Its armor cover in LOS exceeded 600!! mm for parts of a turret.
    And guess what!
    T-44 was the name because it was made in 1944. Till the end of the war, the Soviets made almost 1000 (a thousand) pcs of it.
    So what we had, was a medium tank, with armor coverage reaching 300 mm!! on the gun mantlet, retaining a mass of <34t.
    10 tons! heavier M26 wasn't a match for it in armor coverage perspective. It was vastly outclassed.

    So if you have some perspective, things are getting easy later.
    Those were neither Muricans nor Germans who lead this race.
    The French and Brits can be only served as a cold starters in this competition.

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    Post  Arrow Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:18 pm

    anyone got an agreement on the m829A4 on having 880mm penetration values or no? wrote:

    If it has one, it won't beat the T90M or T90A, not to mention the T-14 Very Happy
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    Post  thegopnik Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:44 pm

    For some reason i would find it interesting if Alamo and lyle6 go create accounts over here Laughing https://www.tanknet.org/
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    Post  ahmedfire Fri Apr 21, 2023 12:07 am

    Is there any plans to change the 2A46M-5 cannon on T-90 with 2A82-1M to give access to the 3BM69 shells ,adding more prenetration cababilities against western tanks from front ?
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    Post  lancelot Fri Apr 21, 2023 1:02 am

    And where would those shells fit exactly? The T-90M's carousel has already been expanded pretty much to the limit of the tank chassis.
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    Post  Scorpius Fri Apr 21, 2023 3:58 am

    lancelot wrote:And where would those shells fit exactly? The T-90M's carousel has already been expanded pretty much to the limit of the tank chassis.
    Oh my God, just place the shells not horizontally, but at an angle.
    Is it so difficult to reconfigure the location of ammunition for an automated loader?

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