Ukraine Military: Situation and Needs

lol @ Garry.


Did you guys also notice how the nose drove right into the cement on the fall?
It's overloaded as hell. Mind you it doesn't mean it could not function just fine in 75% of cases, and the jump did not appear to seriously damage it...but still. It is obvious putting an extra 7 tons on a BTR-80 chassis has its limits.

Wow, why the hell he went so fast? BTR-90 is roughly same weight, maybe BTR-4 still retains old suspension. Russian BTR-82 is using upgraded suspension that helps with more weight and absorbs more shock.

Didnt know where to put this video but extremely interesting

MOTORSICH AKBAR    



Syrian Missiles No Match For Ukrainian Helicopters

Nice advertising 

The problem is that chopper suffered a crash landing right at final approach, and the crew died .

TR1 wrote:The problem is that chopper suffered a crash landing right at final approach, and the crew died .

Did not know that! Are you sure?

Yep, here is the vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amNC6S7Ng6Q

Disturbing video, you can hear children nearby...

Damn! Damn! ...

Phase 1: 

1. Observer status in Custom Union
2. Ditch EU Eastern Partnership (and NATO in relation that comes with it)

Phase 2: 

1. Full Euroasian Union member

 

Ukraine Ditches Plans for EU Deal, Turns to Russia

I remember reading quite a few articles about US pressuring Ukraine to sign the documents with EU lately. 

The Cabinet said in a decree that the decision was motivated by the need to consolidate economic ties with Russia and members of the Kremlin-led Customs Union trade bloc.
The stunning reversal will be greeted with dismay in the European Union, which had been hoping to steer Kiev toward closer economic integration with Europe.
The decree also ordered the resumption of an “active dialogue” with the Moscow-led Customs Union, which includes Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan.


Now projects like An-70 and common airspace defenses and others can move along

"2. Ditch EU Eastern Partnership (and NATO in relation that comes with it)

Phase 2:

1. Full Euroasian Union member
"
Where did you find these parts?
Don't be optimistic. They are just playing tricks.
This government will not join Euroasian Union as full member and next government will turn 180 degree again.
"Free"Ukraine will join EU and NATO finally. Ukraine will be the true enemy with Poland against Russian as they did 90 years ago(Ukrainian People's Republic residing in Kiev).
Of course Russian members (and other members )on this forum, who love and believe their brothers so much, won't agree. But history always repeats itself...
BTW, this is a very good news. Russia desperately needs time to make it stronger, at least, this decision gives Russia another several years.

But I am optimistic that eventually Ukraine will join Custom Union or Euroasian Union whatever. Thing is that when you see cronology of Ukraine and the orange revolution, Jushchenko agenda at the time, EU and NATO prospect, support for Georgia and Sucky, immense  amount of time, money and propaganda done by EU/USA up to this point where Ukraine has Custom Union observer status and shows a middle finger to EU you got to say that no matter there is still huge deal of work that has to be done (to undo all the damage US/EU has done) there is still hope to Ukraine and that in fact Ukraine is moving in the right direction.

This is all quite funny really  

Here's a good Russian article on the latest developments if you care to run it through google translate
http://www.vz.ru/politics/2013/11/21/660711.html

And here is a photo of Polish ex-President Alexander Kwasniewski, taken right at moment when the motion to free Timoshenko for 'medical treatment abroad' was voted down 226 to 190.
A picture of a frustrated russophobe if there ever was one  



The reaction of the Ukrainian opposition was even more hillarious  
Well you'll just have to read the article guys, don't want to spoil anything.

flamming_python wrote:This is all quite funny really  

Here's a good Russian article on the latest developments if you care to run it through google translate
http://www.vz.ru/politics/2013/11/21/660711.html

And here is a photo of Polish ex-President Alexander Kwasniewski, taken right at moment when the motion to free Timoshenko for 'medical treatment abroad' was voted down 226 to 190.
A picture of a frustrated russophobe if there ever was one  



The reaction of the Ukrainian opposition was even more hillarious  
Well you'll just have to read the article guys, don't want to spoil anything.

in the photo is not Kwasniewski but mentioned in the article another Polish - Jan Tombinski. Is Tombinski a russophobe I don't know. But it is likely. For me it indicates that Ukraine is definitely not a reliable political partner. Too much extremely nationalist attitude in the West of the country, too many political turnovers. Making heroes from OUN/UPA by the government circles is significant too. You may laugh at me but it'd be better for Ukraine itself to divide it into two separate countries: Western nationalist and Eastern pro Russian. As for me the latter would be more civilized. May EU deal with those fascists

Pyrrus wrote:in the photo is not Kwasniewski but mentioned in the article another Polish - Jan Tombinski.

Actually it's neither; it's Ireland's Pat Cox

But ol' Kwasniewski was spied in a similar pose too  



A classic case of double facepalm we have here

ah yes, this is him. What a disappointment LOL

he he, really amusing!

However, speaking seriously, I don't understand Yanukovich's plan. Agreement with EU is stopped for at least two years, Russia is not going to release money so easily now and, worst, presidential election in 2015. Klitschko, almost a german citizen, will be probably the next president. I don't see a bright future for the russian-ukrainian relatioships. And Yanokovich seems politically a dead man walking, buried by himself IMO. How can a russian speaking ukrainian vote for the Party of Region now?
Glad to hear your opinion.

Pyrrus wrote:

flamming_python wrote:This is all quite funny really  

Here's a good Russian article on the latest developments if you care to run it through google translate
http://www.vz.ru/politics/2013/11/21/660711.html

And here is a photo of Polish ex-President Alexander Kwasniewski, taken right at moment when the motion to free Timoshenko for 'medical treatment abroad' was voted down 226 to 190.
A picture of a frustrated russophobe if there ever was one  



The reaction of the Ukrainian opposition was even more hillarious  
Well you'll just have to read the article guys, don't want to spoil anything.

in the photo is not Kwasniewski but mentioned in the article another Polish - Jan Tombinski. Is Tombinski a russophobe I don't know. But it is likely. For me it indicates that Ukraine is definitely not a reliable political partner. Too much extremely nationalist attitude in the West of the country, too many political turnovers. Making heroes from OUN/UPA by the government circles is significant too. You may laugh at me but it'd be better for Ukraine itself to divide it into two separate countries: Western nationalist and Eastern pro Russian. As for me the latter would be more civilized. May EU deal with those fascists

Even if the Ukraine did claim to be all pally with Russia, you'd have the risk of idiots in Lviv selling state secrets to America, China, anyone they could.

Personally, I think that if Russia wants the Ukraine, it has the ability to take it. The EU as a whole aren't as desperate to take it as some of its fanatics are. Its in dire poverty, it needs modernisation. It does not appear to have much in common with the EU. And half its population wants to be in Russia. Furthermore, the EU has been a disaster for numerous countries.

If there was a partition, I just hope all of Kiev is counted as the East. This is effectively a cradle of Russia. So it would be an outrage of those Polish-German identity crisis nuts from Lviv etc thought they could take it over... Also, Odessa is beautiful. I think it should be East of any partition.

Finally, there was actually an argument, that Russia never intended to let the Ukraine go. And that its plan was to suck up Western investment for it. Then pull it back into the fold. Who knows what Putin's plan is? Maybe he's playing his cards very close to his chest...

Firebird wrote:Even if the Ukraine did claim to be all pally with Russia, you'd have the risk of idiots in Lviv selling state secrets to America, China, anyone they could.

Of course that would never, ever happen in Peterburg or Moskva, right?!
I mean there never, ever was a Russian sellout, was there?!
Nope, Russia is well known for not having traitors.
It's unique in that respect from the rest of the world. (whisper: Yeltsin)
Not like someone would sell a part of the country or anything... (A l a s k a)  
I'd be shocked, shocked if I ever was to learn about such a thing...

Firebird wrote:Personally, I think that if Russia wants the Ukraine, it has the ability to take it. The EU as a whole aren't as desperate to take it as some of its fanatics are. Its in dire poverty, it needs modernisation. It does not appear to have much in common with the EU. And half its population wants to be in Russia. Furthermore, the EU has been a disaster for numerous countries.

If there was a partition, I just hope all of Kiev is counted as the East. This is effectively a cradle of Russia. So it would be an outrage of those Polish-German identity crisis nuts from Lviv etc thought they could take it over... Also, Odessa is beautiful. I think it should be East of any partition.

Finally, there was actually an argument, that Russia never intended to let the Ukraine go. And that its plan was to suck up Western investment for it. Then pull it back into the fold. Who knows what Putin's plan is? Maybe he's playing his cards very close to his chest...

Let me tell you about this thing I like to call the 'Slavic Curse'... It's really fascinating...
You treat all the people that disrespect you with the utmost respect, and those that you're very close with in tradition, history, music, language, religion, and DNA - with exactly the opposite: You hate them, and put them down all the time.
It's a thing very common for all Slavic peoples.

You know, you Russians make it pretty tough for a Russophile to keep loving you...it's as almost you don't care about how you're perceived...which I know isn't true, because you bend over backwards to show 'The Europeans' how 'European' you are. And it NEVER works! Because of this very attitude! It's like walking around in circles.
Very smart.

RussiaStrong11! 

LMAO Ukrainian parliamentarian with constitution and Putin image "I`m watching you"

I think people need to forget any notion of taking parts of Ukraine. It is silly and if anything would just be damaging to Russia.


Regarding ties with the country, you all know how I feel. No matter how much ass they kiss now, or tomorrow, military joint products should be narrowed to an absolute minimum, as is feasible (obviously can't just dump Motor-Sich tomorrow).

Other economic ties should be encouraged as Russia should be doing with any neighboring country.

In a way, letting the Ukraine go to the EU fold would have been like introducing a virus to the system.

If Russia would have implemented its threats, the ball would have been in the EUs court, and in order to uphold their promises to the Ukrainians and cause economic growth there; they would have had to give them tens of billions of dollars each year directly or indirectly.

It would have been a great way to bankrupt the EU, discredit the expansionist lobby there (Poland, Sweden, Baltic states, Romania & partially Germany) and disillusion the Ukrainian people with the EU once the promises inevitably fall through.

But as it stands now I'm inclined to agree with zino on quite a few things; the tactics Russia has adopted are really a double-edged sword and it has to be very careful not to pay the odd $20 billion that the Ukraine now asks from it now only for the Ukraine to successfully switch allegiances in 2015; which it will almost certainly try again to do.

But still; if we let the EU have this victory; then we wouldn't have had the exquisite pleasure of viewing all this russophobe butthurt first-hand, that we are seeing now  

flamming_python wrote:But as it stands now I'm inclined to agree with zino on quite a few things; the tactics Russia has adopted are really a double-edged sword and it has to be very careful not to pay the odd $20 billion that the Ukraine now asks from it now only for the Ukraine to successfully switch allegiances in 2015; which it will almost certainly try again to do.

I`m quite sure Russia will only do that if it has secured Ukraine join Customs Union , help in tranches.

However , question here is not Russia or EU but Ukraine future , simply , as even some soviet Ukrainian dissidents knew , it will be hard to preserve country without some sort of federalization. Donbass and Galicia are almost two different worlds, maybe letting certain regions have special relations with Russia or EU would calm down tensions inside the country , i`m not talking about partition , just to let some regions have certain rights and autonomy when it comes to cooperation with neighbours without preconditions.

macedonian wrote:Finally, there was actually an argument, that Russia never intended to let the Ukraine go. And that its plan was to suck up Western investment for it. Then pull it back into the fold. Who knows what Putin's plan is? Maybe he's playing his cards very close to his chest... Let me tell you about this thing I like to call the 'Slavic Curse'... It's really fascinating...
You treat all the people that disrespect you with the utmost respect, and those that you're very close with in tradition, history, music, language, religion, and DNA - with exactly the opposite: You hate them, and put them down all the time.
It's a thing very common for all Slavic peoples.

You know, you Russians make it pretty tough for a Russophile to keep loving you...it's as almost you don't care about how you're perceived...which I know isn't true, because you bend over backwards to show 'The Europeans' how 'European' you are. And it NEVER works! Because of this very attitude! It's like walking around in circles.
Very smart. 

Macedonian:
F U C K
T H E M

And I'm not talking about ordinary Ukrainians, not at all, most of them are all right.

I'm talking about the ones who have seized the political system of the country, and who have spread their propaganda all over the Ukraine with Western money and backing; the ugly Ukrainian nationalism that has taken root in the country and is built on opposition to Russia - nothing more. They quite literally see the Russians as the Great Satan.
Why did this happen? Maybe because they want their own statehood, and so this nationalism arises as a natural consenquence because of the need to secure it against what they see as the greatest threat - Russia.

Either way - it doesn't matter why it's happening. What does matter is that this is no joke, this is how they see it, and if the situation were different they would be murdering Russians left, right and center.
This already happened during WW2; they conducted mass-ethnic cleansing on their land; Jews, Poles, etc... all swept clean out of there. There is glorification of Nazism still going on in many circles.

I don't think you understand what sort of people these people are; I don't think you understand who we are dealing with.
They are acting not out of reason. They are acting out of pure emotion, pure hate for Russia; and this is stronger hatred than most Islamists have of the US, or some Palestinians and Israelis have for each other. This is no joke at all. They were taking every opportunity in order to try and harm Russia and destroy it, aide its enemies, they are willing to spite themselves and their own country - if it means getting back at Russia.

Here are the reactions to the turnaround of the last few days. Judge for yourself

"Viktor Yanukovych , today I can already relatively calmly write you a letter. Honestly, yesterday, after the government's decision to refuse to sign an agreement with the EU, I wanted to just kill you. I think 70 percent of the people entrusted to you had the same feeling. Forgive us for all these spontaneous emotions, because we are all human and sometimes it is difficult to control ourselves. But now we need not go to aggression, but by all means to save the situation, you are the only one who can do it." - Yulia Tymoshenko

"A state treason occurred today" - Oleksiy Kaida, deputy of the opposition ultra-nationalist Svoboda party.

"They lied!" - Vitaly Klitshcko, leader of the pro-West nationalist UDAR party.

"Please, don't let them into Europe! Let them ruffle on into the Customs Union!" - Irina Gerashchenko, deputy of the UDAR party

"You will all be sitting in Siberia!" - unnamed opposition party deputy

"TREASON, IMPEACHMENT!" - Arseny Yatsenyuk, parliamentary leader of the All-Ukrainian Fatherland Union "Fatherland" (Timoshchenko's party)

"After this, there can only be dictatorship" - Vitaly Portnikov, TV anchor

"I hate these people" - Darina Marchak, Journalist

"The agreement gave us a chance and now it's gone. Hello USSR in its most horrible, soiled and perverted form" - Leonid Tsodikov, Publisher

Emotions. And hatred.
How can you say that these people are anything other than alien to us?
Language, religion, etc... all of it be damned.
We get along fabulously with the Vietnamese for example; they have absolutely nothing in common with us - yet we don't have any of this BS with them.

There are many, many, many Ukrainians who wish for good relations with Russia, or are otherwise apolitical and who have no problems speaking the Russian language or anything like this. Unfortunately, these people aren't in power, and never will be. The ones whose desire for power and hatred for Russia is the greatest are the ones who get on top, and I fear this isn't going to change.

flamming_python wrote:

macedonian wrote:Finally, there was actually an argument, that Russia never intended to let the Ukraine go. And that its plan was to suck up Western investment for it. Then pull it back into the fold. Who knows what Putin's plan is? Maybe he's playing his cards very close to his chest... Let me tell you about this thing I like to call the 'Slavic Curse'... It's really fascinating...
You treat all the people that disrespect you with the utmost respect, and those that you're very close with in tradition, history, music, language, religion, and DNA - with exactly the opposite: You hate them, and put them down all the time.
It's a thing very common for all Slavic peoples.

You know, you Russians make it pretty tough for a Russophile to keep loving you...it's as almost you don't care about how you're perceived...which I know isn't true, because you bend over backwards to show 'The Europeans' how 'European' you are. And it NEVER works! Because of this very attitude! It's like walking around in circles.
Very smart. 

Macedonian:
F U C K
T H E M

I have a funny T R U E story for you flamming_python...
I was in Serbia awhile ago to visit some relatives (my cousins are Serbian you see, and I used to visit Belgrade often when younger). While there, we took a trip around Serbia (Balkan countries are rather small, you can visit most of the significant tourist places within a week at most - if you do a sleepover - if not a couple of days should suffice).
So we visit some places, and I'm all thrilled because I've been living in 'the west' for most of my highschool/university years and always wanted to visit "my lands" which I never did previously...I digress...sorry.
So, we meet people, have fun with the younger ones (I was a young bloke back then, mind you ) but I especially wanted to talk to older people, since they seemed to be holding on to what's left of our traditions here.
So in one village in Southern Serbia (very close to Macedonia in fact) we meet these old people, they seem very nice, even cook us dinner, and invite us to sleep over at their house. So, we have some(quite a lot actually) Rakija (that'd be Vodka for Russians), and I ask the old man whom we're visiting how old is he. He says he's 93! So I say: Grandpa! You don't really look it! (he really looked younger, I thought the man was in his seventies). So he, says: "Yep, I'm about gettin' ready to die".
Out of courtesy, we all say: "No, you got plenty of life left in you, look how young(er) you look"!
This nice old man says: "No children, I know I'm soon to die. I've made peace with that fact awhile ago. Now, if I can only find one more Bulgarian to slaughter - I'll be happy and die in peace (this nice old man used these exact same words!).

So, mate...when you say:

flamming_python wrote:
F U C K
T H E M

What I hear is:
Long live ignorance!

Fuck reason!
Fuck thinking!
Fuck people!
Fuck rational thought!

And, I've seen that sort of emotional behavior before, you see, and I'm not really impressed.

Now, when you find an Englishman hating an Aussie or a Kiwi with that same emotional zest, or find an American that hates Canadians with that same reasoning - I'm all ears...
As things stand at the moment, divide et impera is just a nice game for anyone to play with ignorant people. And it makes me truly sad. Truly sad...
But I'm the boss of no man. So please continue with whatever makes you feel fulfilled.

RussiaStrong11! 
UkraineStronk11!

whatever...

Viktor wrote:Phase 1: 

1. Observer status in Custom Union
2. Ditch EU Eastern Partnership (and NATO in relation that comes with it)

Phase 2: 

1. Full Euroasian Union member

I predicted a while back that Ukraine will reunify with Russia in time, so I agree with Viktor's view.

As for Ukraine joining the EU and Nato I think Russia would never allow that, even at the cost of starting a civil war in Ukraine....they practically said so publicly a few weeks ago.

. wrote:The Kremlin has warned Ukraine that if the country goes ahead with a planned agreement on free trade with the EU, it faces inevitable financial catastrophe and possibly the collapse of the state.

"We don't want to use any kind of blackmail. This is a question for the Ukrainian people," said Glazyev. "But legally, signing this agreement about association with EU, the Ukrainian government violates the treaty on strategic partnership and friendship with Russia." When this happened, he said, Russia could no longer guarantee Ukraine's status as a state and could possibly intervene if pro-Russian regions of the country appealed directly to Moscow.

Guardian

I'll even go further and say that Russia is starting to re-assert itself in the Balkans, which is another traditional area of Russian interest.

Cyberspec wrote:I'll even go further and say that Russia is starting to re-assert itself in the Balkans, which is another traditional area of Russian interest.

Oh?
How so?
Please tell us more.