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Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

mnztr

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Post n°251

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

mnztr Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:46 pm

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Not really. Snipers? Insurgents could just hide behind sand bags. Manually launched mortars wouldn't be as accurate, wouldn't have has much ammo readily available, wouldn't have anywhere near as many submunitions, would require more manpower who would be exposed, would take much longer to fire off just as many projectiles (within the same time span of launching one rocket), and the purpose is to impede movement by laying anti-personnel mines, and not to detonate on impact. Why would you need additional impact drones, when the rockets would have more fire power within them, and Russian MLRS has rockets with observeration drones built in to them.

If insurgents are encamped behind sandbags then they are already trapped. if you want to eliminate them, the sniper can call for a mortar or air strike. The MLRS has its purpose but the collateral damage in urban environments is very high and you have to sweep the mines when you go in to take the area. Too me mines are an emergency tool. When you are at risk of being overrrun by superior numbers, then use mines.

thegopnik

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Post n°252

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

thegopnik Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:13 pm

mnztr wrote:You do need longer range today. With drones, it is not likely the launcher can position itself to attack. Also with drones the launcher crew can send a drone for targeting. I wonder if a small wing can be added that pops out at the apogee to extend rangeI bet this will add at least 10 KM to the range. Perhaps only use those for long range missions. With drones and longer range, precision becomes much more valuable. If you look at how US MLRS has evolved, with just 3 vehicles you can now provide precision strike in a radius of almost 1000 KM which is a staggering capability. By extension the Tornados newest missiles allow the same to over 2000KM which is quite mind blowing. The shorter range missiles are probably a bit more practical however as the 1000K missiles cannot be very cheap and thus cannot really replace artillary. *edit* I did read the longest range Grad is about 120 km today with precision. This is very useful. Extra range would be "nice to have" but maybe not worth the $$

What sources are you getting those 1000 km ranges for MLRS?

mnztr

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Post n°253

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

mnztr Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:29 am

I edited my post Grad is I think 120KM while the US is up to 300. I think 120 is pretty much all you need in most cases for this type of projectile, but range is always useful

GarryB

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Post n°254

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

GarryB Mon Mar 16, 2020 5:23 am

The problem is that when using the 300km range missiles MLRS is effectively just a shorter ranged Iskander with a missile that is slower and easier to shoot down.

Overall the MLRS is a bad idea for HATO.

It is standardised on the Bradley infantry fighting vehicle which pretty much only the US uses, it carries 12 launch tubes of 227mm rockets which for most of its career had a range of about 35km.

In comparison the Uragan is a 220mm rocket with 40km range and 16 launch tubes per vehicle... which is a standard truck mount with much better road mobility and a fraction of the price to buy, to maintain, and to operate...

The Smerch is a 300mm rocket with a 90km range and 12 launch tubes also with a standard truck mount and better road mobility and a fraction of the price to buy and maintain and operate with much more powerful payloads too.

Both the Uragan and Smerch rockets have an autogyro that ensures the rockets arrive in closer groups to concentrate their effect and fire power on target... a cheap and simple way of reducing error and improving performance without making the rockets really expensive.

Honestly with 180km range 152mm guided shells being developed I rather suspect they will become more useful than rocket artillery which is a good way to shower an area target in fragments, but will never be ideal for hitting point targets without making it much more expensive by making the rockets guided.

I would suspect the 180km range shells have a greatly reduced HE payload... perhaps 5-10kg which is still plenty for destroying a vehicle or MG position...

miketheterrible

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Post n°255

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

miketheterrible Mon Mar 16, 2020 5:28 am

mnztr wrote:I edited my post Grad is I think 120KM while the US is up to 300. I think 120 is pretty much all you need in most cases for this type of projectile, but range is always useful

Not for an MLRS it isn't. That's about what the two rocket systems is

Hole

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Post n°256

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

Hole Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:37 am

Army Tactical Missile System = ATACMS.

Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 11 001315

GarryB

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Post n°257

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

GarryB Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:17 pm

Effectively a much more expensive, shorter ranged, less accurate, better mobility through mud but much poorer mobility on roads equivalent of the Iskander.

GarryB

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Post n°258

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

GarryB Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:30 am

Should add of course that an Iskander battery will receive a range of missiles that today can include 4,500km range cruise missiles as well as existing Iskander types and the under 500km range cruise missiles with the double warhead for targets that just need a bigger boom.

In comparison the logistics for the rocket batteries are quite complex because of the numbers of different types of rockets they have available and need to supply for specific targets and specific roles.

The advantage of pallets loaded with rockets and mounted on launchers is that you can preload the pallets with the rockets and munitions you want to use for an attack, but if a target of opportunity arises... ie a mass enemy armour attack, you can quickly put on the pallets with the sensor fused top attack sub-munitions and obliterate them.

With the capacity of the rockets and their payloads and accuracy levels means a grad might not have 40 rockets of the same type... they might go for 30 rockets with HE and anti armour submunitions, and the remaining ten rockets with sensor fused submunitions on each vehicle so a battery of 6 vehicles could launch 60 rockets at an armoured formation at its rear staging area forming up for an attack, while the other 180 rockets could be directed at infantry or HQ or artillery support units to further blunt the attack...

George1

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Post n°259

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

George1 Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:29 am

In the Kaliningrad region "Smerch" MRLS were deployed

In its turn, the Izvestia newspaper published material on this subject by Bogdan Stepovoy, Roman Kretsul and Anton Lavrov under the heading “To hit in one gulp: new reactive systems appeared in Kaliningrad. Artillerymen of the Baltic Fleet coastal forces received the Smerch MLRS division, which, in particular, states:

The artillery brigade deployed in Kaliningrad includes the Smerch division of ultra-long-range multiple launch rocket systems (MLRS). These guns can with particular accuracy hit the positions of medium-range missiles, as well as enemy defenses. Experts note that NATO's air defense has no way to intercept the "Smerch". Thus, the MLRS became a symmetrical response to the building up of the alliance's power in the Baltic states and Eastern Europe.

The Smerch multiple launch rocket systems entered service with the 244th separate Neman Red Banner Order of the Suvorov and Kutuzov Artillery Brigade at the end of last year. Now soldiers and officers are mastering new equipment, sources in the Ministry of Defense told Izvestia. These more powerful and long-range reactive systems replaced the MLRS BM-21 Grad.

Firing range of up to 120 km and the power of "Smerch" ammunition will reliably cover the Kaliningrad region.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3972617.html

<...>

The artillery brigade, which received new equipment, is part of the 11th Army Corps of the Baltic Fleet coastal forces, created in 2016. Now it is being actively strengthened. Last year, 152-mm self-propelled artillery mounts (self-propelled guns) Msta-S entered service with the units. Replacing Grad with new MLRS will increase the brigade’s fire capabilities several times.
For comparison: a firing of one Smerch combat vehicle strikes an area of 67 hectares at a range of 20 to 120 km. Grad covers an area of 4 hectares at a distance of up to 20 km, and with modernized missiles - up to 40 km.

dino00

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Post n°260

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

dino00 Sun May 03, 2020 3:59 pm

"By the end of the year, delivery of more than 30 modern multiple launch rocket systems has been planned to the missile and artillery units of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation . As part of the state defense order, manufacturers will transfer to the Russian Ministry of Defense Tornado-G and Tornado-S MLRS," in the message.

https://ria.ru/20200503/1570927432.html

JohninMK

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Post n°261

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

JohninMK Mon May 04, 2020 8:32 pm

In English. Photo Tornado-S

The Russian Armed Forces will get more than 30 new Tornado family multiple launch rocket systems (MLRS) in 2020, the Defense Ministry said on Sunday.

“The delivery of more than thirty modern multiple launch rocket systems to units of rocket troops and artillery of the Russian Federation Armed Forces is planned by the end of this year. Tornado-G and Tornado-S MLRS will be handed over by manufacturing companies to the Russian Defense Ministry within the framework of performing the state defense order,” the Ministry said.

The Russian 300-mm MLRS Tornado-S comprises an upgraded combat vehicle equipped with an automated fire control system, new rockets and corrected rockets with the separated high explosive element. The 122-mm MLRS Tornado-G is intended for firing against manpower, armored vehicles, artillery batteries and command posts.

Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 11 Geopolitics-00389-696x464

Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 11 Geopolitics-00389-696x464

https://geopolitics.news/euroasia/russian-army-to-receive-more-than-30-new-tornado-family-mlrs-in-2020/

Hole

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Post n°262

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

Hole Tue May 05, 2020 1:06 pm

The MRLS on the pic is an Uragan-1M. The Tornado-S looks like the Smerch.

George1

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Post n°263

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

George1 Tue May 05, 2020 2:57 pm

Hole wrote:The MRLS on the pic is an Uragan-1M. The Tornado-S looks like the Smerch.

100% Right.

JohninMK

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Post n°264

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

JohninMK Tue May 05, 2020 6:07 pm

George1 wrote:

Hole wrote:The MRLS on the pic is an Uragan-1M. The Tornado-S looks like the Smerch.

100% Right.

Just quoting the article. Got it wrong. Sad

Hole

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Post n°265

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

Hole Tue May 05, 2020 8:14 pm

Journalists. angry

GarryB

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Post n°266

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

GarryB Wed May 06, 2020 2:24 am

What I don't understand is that with the new pallet system... why do they need a separate Uragan-M and Smerch-M system?

This new truck carrying the pallets with 6 missiles per pallet is carrying the 300mm rockets because Uragan-M should have more tubes of smaller calibre (220mm), so it is carrying the right rockets to be Smerch...

Therefore I can understand the journalists getting it wrong... I don't understand it and I am interested in the subject...

TheArmenian

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Post n°267

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

TheArmenian Wed May 06, 2020 2:59 am

I think that the photo is the Smerch system with 2x6 pallets.

GarryB

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Post n°268

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

GarryB Wed May 06, 2020 9:22 am

That is exactly what I was thinking, but if that truck can carry the 300mm rocket pallets then it should be able to carry the 220mm and 122mm pallets for the Uragan and Grad rockets too... so I can understand them having a small light Grad variant because it will be cheaper and smaller and lighter than this big expensive truck, but for most roles where there are decent roads and not too steep roads or sharp turns why would you need more than a small light truck and this one?

I find it a little confusing.

At first I thought this truck would replace Smerch and Uragan and that single pallet light truck would replace Grad in mobile units... but that single pallet light truck only carries one pallet so it would need two to match the old Grad...

It is all very confusing... especially when you mix in original vehicles given an upgrade too...

franco

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Post n°269

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

franco Wed May 06, 2020 4:23 pm

GarryB wrote:That is exactly what I was thinking, but if that truck can carry the 300mm rocket pallets then it should be able to carry the 220mm and 122mm pallets for the Uragan and Grad rockets too... so I can understand them having a small light Grad variant because it will be cheaper and smaller and lighter than this big expensive truck, but for most roles where there are decent roads and not too steep roads or sharp turns why would you need more than a small light truck and this one?

I find it a little confusing.

At first I thought this truck would replace Smerch and Uragan and that single pallet light truck would replace Grad in mobile units... but that single pallet light truck only carries one pallet so it would need two to match the old Grad...

It is all very confusing... especially when you mix in original vehicles given an upgrade too...

My understanding is that Tornado-G replaces the Grad system in brigade / division direct artillery support.
The Tornado-S replaces the Smerch / Uragan in the 4 District Artillery Rocket brigades.
The Uragan-M replaces the Uragan / Grad in the Armies / Corps Artillery brigades. This system can fire all 3 artillery rocket types as needed, in their support of the Army or Corps that they are attached to for support.

Hole

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Post n°270

Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

Hole Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:40 pm

A few pics, with a lot of love going to Said.

Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 11 H18a3610

TOS-2

Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 11 H18a3611

ISDM

Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 11 H18a3612

Transloader

George1

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Post n°271

ISDM Remote Mining Engineering System

George1 Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:05 am

Hole wrote:

ISDM

Transloader

ISDM Remote Mining Engineering System

In the Victory Parade on Red Square in Moscow on June 24, 2020, among other things, the machines of the new ISDM remote engineering mining system designed for the engineering forces of the Ground Forces of the Russian Federation will be demonstrated for the first time. ISDM combat vehicle and transport-loading vehicles take part in the parade rehearsals.

The fighting vehicle of the ISDM remote-mining engineering system is moving to Moscow to participate in the Victory Parade on Red Square, 06/13/2020 (c) Said Aminov / saidpvo.livejournal.com

The creation of an ISDM remote mining system for mining was carried out by JSC NPO Splav (Tula) under the OKR Agriculture-I under a state contract with the Ministry of Defense of Russia No. N / 3/4 / 74-2014-DGOZ concluded on December 30, 2013, however, as can be judged, it was significantly delayed. Information materials on ISDM were presented for the first time at the Army-2016 international military-technical forum, however, samples of IDSM machines were “lit up” only now, and there is still no data on the system’s entry into mass production.

According to well-known data, the ISDM combat vehicle is a 50-barrel multiple launch rocket system made on the KamAZ chassis (8x8) and firing with specially designed 122-mm rockets equipped with mines of various types, the preparation of data for firing is automated. Missiles are in transport-launch containers, for reloading the system includes a transport-loading machine also on the KamAZ chassis (8x8). Both types of vehicles are equipped with armored cabs.

The transport and loading vehicle of the ISDM remote mining engineering system moves to Moscow to participate in the Victory Parade on Red Square, 06/13/2020 (c) Said Aminov / saidpvo.livejournal.com

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4059090.html