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    Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:10 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Technically a mine layer, but it operates like MLRS, set to be debuted at the 2020 Victory Day parade. It looks like Grad/Tornado-G, but it's probably more offshoot of Tornado-G than Grad. Tornado-G is having 100km range rockets being introduced, but a dedicated mine laying vehicle being created suggested a much reduced range in favor of a much greater supply of submunitions, so instead of having 100km range, it could have 10km range but with double the supply of bomblets.

    Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 12 ESiLvajUUAA37Tk?format=jpg&name=medium
    Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 12 ESiLtzjU8AA4RBY?format=jpg&name=large

    It's exactly like how I predicted.

    The system of remote installation of mines "Agriculture": creatively approached the name
    Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 12 1593159025_1593158960

    In Russia, the final stage of testing the new multiple launch rocket system "Agriculture", designed for remote installation of mines. Remote Mining Engineering System (ISDM) includes combat and transport-loading vehicles, as well as transport and launch containers.

    Transport and launch containers contain engineering ammunition that meets the requirements of the Geneva Convention regarding their subsequent self-destruction.

    The combat vehicle is a volley fire system with fifty guides of 122 mm caliber. It is capable of using various types of mines: both anti-personnel and anti-tank. Before the salvo set flight mission and parameters for the self-destruction of ammunition.

    The range of "Agriculture" is 5-15 kilometers, which allows mining in the most safe and maneuverable way at a remote distance.

    The developer of the new technology is the NPO Splav.

    It is also known that a combat vehicle can install a new generation of mines. Perhaps we are talking about the "smart" mines POM-3, which were reported back in 2016. Thanks to a special electronic filling, such mines are able to recognize targets and work only when necessary. For example, they ignore animals and vehicles and respond only to humans.

    KamAZ vehicles with armored cabs equipped with air filtration and ventilation systems, as well as air conditioners, are used as a chassis for “Agriculture”.

    The system was officially introduced for the first time on June 24 at a parade in honor of the 75th anniversary of the Great Victory, which took place in Moscow on Red Square. Two combat and two transport-loading vehicles took part there. But even before that, “Agriculture” could be observed during rehearsals.

    Now the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation are armed with universal mine-clearances (UMZ) based on the chassis of ZIL-131 vehicles, the maximum radius of which is 100 meters. There is also a helicopter mining system VSM-1 based on Mi-8, which can be used from a height of not more than 150 meters.

    In the 70s, on the basis of MLRS Grad and Hurricane already tried to create a similar system with a range of up to 30 kilometers, but it was ineffective due to low accuracy and high cost of ammunition.

    The team of authors in terms of name approached the process creatively. According to some reports, the "agrarian" theme prevailed initially. For example, the Sower option was proposed. But in the end, the remote mining system became "Agriculture."

    https://topwar.ru/172529-armija-rf-poluchit-innovacionnuju-sistemu-distancionnoj-ustanovki-min-zemledelie.html

    The cutaway shows a large percentage of the internal space on 122mm rockets is dedicated for propellant. Limiting the range to 5-15km (approx. 1/10th the propellant) means that it can easily hold twice as many submunitions.

    Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 12 Dce9mwy-4b0de0ee-ace5-461b-8d0d-bd5e1aa49160.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOiIsImlzcyI6InVybjphcHA6Iiwib2JqIjpbW3sicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvMmQ3NDA2MGUtNTg5NC00ZmU3LWIyMWItOWQzNTlmZjU1YWNmXC9kY2U5bXd5LTRiMGRlMGVlLWFjZTUtNDYxYi04ZDBkLWJkNWUxYWE0OTE2MC5wbmcifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6ZmlsZS5kb3dubG9hZCJdfQ

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    Post  magnumcromagnon Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:02 pm

    Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 12 A962b1ec66f75c41592987565
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    Post  AJ-47 Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:06 pm

    Hole wrote:The MRLS on the pic is an Uragan-1M. The Tornado-S looks like the Smerch.
    you right but I think that this launcher can get pallets with 300mm rockets and the 220mm rockets.
    maybe they want to use a common launcher for both rockets which might is a good idea.

    Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 12 Russia36
    The regular launcher of the Uragan
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    Post  dino00 Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:19 pm



    Tornado-S on Military Acceptance 19 July 09.55

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    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:17 pm

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    Post  Viktor Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:14 pm

    Capability to perform quasi ballistic flight trajectories added to its ammunition just made Tornado-S deadly guillotine for western AD systems.

    LINK

    The aforementioned tactical and technical advantages allow the advanced missiles of the 9M528 and 9M542 line not only to hit the command and staff infrastructure, as well as the enemy mechanized subunits advancing to the active sector of the theater of operations in an operational depth of about 150 km, but also to easily disable the radars of illumination and guidance AN / MPQ-53 long-range anti-aircraft missile systems "Patriot PAC-2 GEM-T" due to the use of ballistic or quasi-ballistic flight trajectories, the terminal section of which will be a dive from the upper stratosphere at angles of more than 75-83 ° (outside the elevation sector of the radar view illumination and guidance of the MPQ-53, ranging from 1 to 73 degrees). wrote:

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    Post  dino00 Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:12 pm

    For the first time, two guided missiles developed for Tornado-S - Chemezov

    "For the first time, two 300-mm guided missiles have been developed for Tornado-S. Each of the projectiles can be set with individual parameters not only in flight range, but also in trajectory for their deployment to various targets," Chemezov told reporters on Friday.

    According to him, the firing range of guided missiles is over 100 kilometers.

    "The firing accuracy of the Tornado-S shells is 15-20 times higher than that of the Smerch MLRS shells.

    He recalled that "Tornado-S" was put into service and is actively supplied to the troops. "I cannot voice the volume of supplies, this is classified information," Chemezov said.


    https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=535316&lang=RU
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    Post  ult Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:18 pm

    Looks like new guided munitions for Smerch.

    Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 12 WLV6cYn

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    Post  GarryB Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:08 am

    Looks like new guided munitions for Smerch.

    Those look like nose sections of TOR missiles...
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    Post  Cyberspec Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:25 am

    From VK...

    satellite guidance Units for unguided 300 mm rocket artillery shells MLRS "Tornado-S" (Smerch). It is a GLONASS satellite receiver(GPS) with controls. The unit is independent in flight, i.e. it does not rotate together with the entire projectile and is stable on a roll. According to the developer, it allows you to increase the accuracy by 15-20 times, i.e. the CEP is no more than 10-20 m at the maximum distance.

    https://vk.com/milinfolive?w=wall-123538639_1525963

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    Post  GarryB Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:15 pm

    Well that is interesting....

    The nose mounted fuses and steering systems developed for artillery shells could work while spinning... wonder if they shared information with these guys it could be made simpler and cheaper...
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    Post  Isos Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:50 pm

    They were late on this one. Serbia has the Sumadija and Belorussia has the Polonezh with greater ranges than this russian rocket.


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    Izvestia reports that the Tornado-S MLRS tested a new long-range PGM during the exercise earlier this month. Its developers have said it will be able to strike targets at 200km eventually, and each missile in a salvo can strike a different target. 9/
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:08 pm

    Isos wrote:They were late on this one. Serbia has the Sumadija and Belorussia has the Polonezh with greater ranges than this russian rocket.


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    Izvestia reports that the Tornado-S MLRS tested a new long-range PGM during the exercise earlier this month. Its developers have said it will be able to strike targets at 200km eventually, and each missile in a salvo can strike a different target. 9/

    Polonaise is derived from the Chinese MLRS ballistic rocket WS-2/3 which is more akin to short range ballistic missile with a singular 480kg warhead.......start comparing it with the 'main' SRBM in the Federation (Iskander-M) and Polonaise has less than half the range of Iskander-M (450-500km range).

    Polonaise even looks like a slender Iskander-M rocket.

    Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 12 Wx10801
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:51 am

    The Smerch has a maximum range of 300km, so if theos rockets you talked about have half the range of the Iskander than they have less range than the Smerch.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:26 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:The Smerch has a maximum range of 300km, so if theos rockets you talked about have half the range of the Iskander than they have less range than the Smerch.

    The '200km' range Smerch rockets are in development. Make no mistake about it with the death of the INF Treaty they could easily develop 300mm cruise missiles (that could fire from Smerch tubes) that could get 1000km range with large 'conventional' warheads. Notice how I emphasized 'conventional' warheads? Tactical thermonuclear warheads could easily be 1/5th or even 1/10th the size of conventional warhead but carry 1000x times the explosive punch, leaving much more room for propellant. Smerch was designed to be used with thermonuclear warheads to be used against mass NATO armor spear-heads (if deemed necessary), with additional propellant it could fly +600km range.
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    Post  Isos Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:48 pm

    They can also use the gliding bombs made for drone as a warhead on the rocket adding range.

    We will see but the 200km rockets seems to be a missile rather than a rocket.

    Ballistic missiles, older ones, were just big rockets. Polonezh comes with a MRLS launchers (8 tubes I think) and the guidance part doesn't allow to use it like a missile but just hit more precisely the target... Iskander and new BM are missiles because they can manoeuvre. They are not the same.

    Polonezh like systems are cheaper than real new BM and you can use more rockets overwhelming the enemy. The guided part allow to hit one target per rocket. So a group of 10 polonezh can launch 80 rockets at 80 targets precisely.

    The drawback is that they are easy target for ABM systems. But the use of more rocket than BM allow to overwhelm it, when iskander will manoeuvre to not get hit.

    MRLS like Smerch will blow up an area precisly but you can't use 1 rocket for 1 target. That's why they are developing this new guided rocket. Now they can use it against an airport and each rocket will touch a precise location/target like aircraft spotted by a drone.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:19 am

    I think people get caught up in terms of range and forget what rocket based artillery is for... what is the likelyhood of a Smerch unit getting requests to hit targets 3 or 400km away from their position?

    Designing a rocket with enormous range is not that difficult but you end up making the rocket bigger and heavier than it needs to be while at the same time having to limit the payload which is the whole purpose of the weapon... to deliver the payload in volume to a target area...
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:18 am

    GarryB wrote:I think people get caught up in terms of range and forget what rocket based artillery is for... what is the likelyhood of a Smerch unit getting requests to hit targets 3 or 400km away from their position?

    Designing a rocket with enormous range is not that difficult but you end up making the rocket bigger and heavier than it needs to be while at the same time having to limit the payload which is the whole purpose of the weapon... to deliver the payload in volume to a target area...

    The point is that using nuclear warheads with your long range MRLS rockets allows you to literally flatten every manmade thing in half of poland ind ukraine within minutes, qite useful when you need to kull a horde such as nato.

    You will probably say "but they have Iskanders and Kalibrs for that" but tell me, do you honestly think that they will have enough of thoes to fire at any potential staging area in eastern europe in sufficient quantities to kill any potential military formations?
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    Post  Sujoy Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:06 pm

    Video of the new guided missile for Tornado-S


    https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2793271617573738&extid=IMG74AfqZjdGlski
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    Post  RTN Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:46 pm

    GarryB wrote:Designing a rocket with enormous range is not that difficult but you end up making the rocket bigger and heavier than it needs to be while at the same time having to limit the payload which is the whole purpose of the weapon... to deliver the payload in volume to a target area...
    These Tornado -S guided rockets will be intercepted by NATO by using the SkyShield AD system.

    The state of the art AHEAD projectile is programmed by a muzzle based electromagnetic inductor, which sets an electronic timer to activate and separate the projectile into 152 heavy tungsten metal spin-stabilized sub-projectiles (3.3 gram each), forming a lethal cone shaped metal cloud, placed ahead of the target in its flight path.

    https://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/en/rheinmetall_defence/public_relations/news/detail_1359.php
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    Post  GarryB Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:27 pm

    The theory is great, but how many HATO nations have the guns and that ammo in service... vs how many 300mm Smerch rockets the Russians are making...

    The point is that using nuclear warheads with your long range MRLS rockets allows you to literally flatten every manmade thing in half of poland ind ukraine within minutes, qite useful when you need to kull a horde such as nato.

    That is true but the cost of loading up 300mm nuclear warheads and then the problem will be making them fall far enough apart that they don't overlap too much in terms of destruction.

    The real problem is that HATO forces will only be concentrating in specific areas so blanket destroying the entire territory is rather inefficient and not particularly effective.

    Destroying major population centres would be much more efficient...

    You will probably say "but they have Iskanders and Kalibrs for that" but tell me, do you honestly think that they will have enough of thoes to fire at any potential staging area in eastern europe in sufficient quantities to kill any potential military formations?

    There is no point in destroying a staging area that is empty... the whole point of hitting a staging area is the high concentration of enemy in terms of people and material including vehicles and fuel and munitions all come together in a staging area... so when you detect one you wait till it is full before you nuke it.... and one warhead should do... you wont need 12 warheads from one Smerch vehicle or more from a Smerch battery.

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    Post  Isos Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:34 pm

    RTN wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Designing a rocket with enormous range is not that difficult but you end up making the rocket bigger and heavier than it needs to be while at the same time having to limit the payload which is the whole purpose of the weapon... to deliver the payload in volume to a target area...
    These Tornado -S guided rockets will be intercepted by NATO by using the SkyShield AD system.

    The state of the art AHEAD projectile is programmed by a muzzle based electromagnetic inductor, which sets an electronic timer to activate and separate the projectile into 152 heavy tungsten metal spin-stabilized sub-projectiles (3.3 gram each), forming a lethal cone shaped metal cloud, placed ahead of the target in its flight path.

    https://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/en/rheinmetall_defence/public_relations/news/detail_1359.php

    It's still a 35mm gun with an effective range of 3 or so km.

    Russia isn't Hamas or Hezbollah. They don't launch two or three rockets per salvo. They usually have around ten MLRS firing all their rockets at the same time. When the guys in that gun AD system will see hundreds of small targets coming at them they will run away as fast as they can.

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    Post  RTN Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:49 pm

    Isos wrote:
    It's still a 35mm gun with an effective range of 3 or so km.

    Russia isn't Hamas or Hezbollah. They don't launch two or three rockets per salvo. They usually have around ten MLRS firing all their rockets at the same time. When the guys in that gun AD system will see hundreds of small targets coming at them they will run away as fast as they can.
    NATO isn't Hamas or Hezbollah either. Hundreds of incoming Russian MLRS will be intercepted by a few hundred Sky Shield fired AHEAD rounds.
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    Post  Isos Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:00 pm

    RTN wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    It's still a 35mm gun with an effective range of 3 or so km.

    Russia isn't Hamas or Hezbollah. They don't launch two or three rockets per salvo. They usually have around ten MLRS firing all their rockets at the same time. When the guys in that gun AD system will see hundreds of small targets coming at them they will run away as fast as they can.
    NATO isn't Hamas or Hezbollah either. Hundreds of incoming Russian MLRS will be intercepted by a few hundred Sky Shield fired AHEAD rounds.

    Not really. They will never buy that many systems. Germany might buy 30 or 40 but not more.

    When I say russia launch hundreds of them, I mean hundreds in 1 salvo of 10 vehicles and at the same area. NATO cab't have 100 SHORADS at a same place. They will most likely have around a 100 of such system in service all togather.

    Such system is good against 1 or 2 rocket fired at a same time and even then they need to prove they can detect rockets and more with that system.

    Any IADS is useless against a salvo of rockets fired by multiple MRLS at a same area.

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    Post  Regular Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:15 pm

    RTN wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    It's still a 35mm gun with an effective range of 3 or so km.

    Russia isn't Hamas or Hezbollah. They don't launch two or three rockets per salvo. They usually have around ten MLRS firing all their rockets at the same time. When the guys in that gun AD system will see hundreds of small targets coming at them they will run away as fast as they can.
    NATO isn't Hamas or Hezbollah either. Hundreds of incoming Russian MLRS will be intercepted by a few hundred Sky Shield fired AHEAD rounds.

    Reality shows that it's impossible to stop MLRS or heavy barrage. It would be saturated. It's easier to defend against air power.

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