Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues
GarryB wrote:I suspect he meant 0.3m^2.
Viktor wrote:AESA L-band radar in the Su-35 skin - first in the world
Giulio wrote:Thanks, but I'd like to read the article with a translator if possible.
Бортовой Многофункциональны цифровой запросчик с активной фазированной антенной решеткой (АФАР)
Giulio wrote:Thanks. I thought it was an article. So, has the Su-35 an on-board multi-function digital interrogator with active phased array, or is it only a Manufacturer demonstrator?
GarryB wrote:We are talking about average... half the time the reflection will be less and half the time more... and BTW Irbis is a very powerful radar... what makes you think it wont track semi stealthy targets at long range?
Stealthflanker wrote:
I never think Irbis is not a powerful radar.
My problem is what RCS figure i should use for my range calculations, Morpheus complicated the problem with his 3/0.3 Sqm figure, and i asked, if raptor's RCS is indeed 0.3 Sqm.. Why Russian bother to have L-band radar at all since Irbis E can detect 0.3 Sqm RCS at 200++ km.
My conclusion is that Raptor's RCS is indeed smaller than 0.3 Sqm and perhaps smaller than 0.1 Sqm that necessitating separate L-band Radar.
nemrod wrote:
The debate concerning the rcs is a mere useless hype. As a chinese general witness, after all, some balistic missiles has rcs <0.001, and they detected them. The stealth technology never worked, it was detected in Iraq during Desert Storm -as a speciall US army's commitee- the F-117 was spotted several times. In Serbia, no use tell you more about, 2 F-117 were downed, along with a B2. Stealth concept never worked, does not work, and will never work.
Recently, if you follow the news concerning F-22, some of them were deployed in Japan, chinese actionned their new radar -undoubtly, with the russians' pundits- they easily detected the F-22. Seeing that, americans removed their F-22 from Japan.
One of the best -if not the best- in the world stay the SU-35 and its powerfull Irbis-E abble to crunch all western fighters. Instead to continue to improve the performances of the very powerfull Mig-35, and SU-35 that are far enough against any fighters in the world, unfortuneltly Russia seems to fell in the same western's trap, by developping the very cosltly SU- Pak T-50 with a mixed results.
With its radars ZUKH Phasototron, and Irbis-E, Mig-35 and SU-35 are largelly enough against every Russia's ennemies.
Werewolf wrote:
Stealth has its use but it is the same like with everything else that is propagated to ridiculous statements, like "stealth" invisible to everyone and other nonsense which Lockheed Martin carries on with almost everything they produce. This figure of 0.00001m² RCS is absolutley impossible, it is only possible digitally in a labour with clean conditions not in real world, with far higher moisture, different environment, different non perfect coating with RAM, absolutley everything in real combat is worse and that is dozen times worse.
You should take the most likely figure for Raptors RCS which is around 0.01 -0.05m² which was posted here before by Mindstorm in a post of his about russian scientist estimations of F-22 RCS and not this laughable PR they like to shove down everyones throught.
Stealthflanker wrote:Werewolf wrote:
Stealth has its use but it is the same like with everything else that is propagated to ridiculous statements, like "stealth" invisible to everyone and other nonsense which Lockheed Martin carries on with almost everything they produce. This figure of 0.00001m² RCS is absolutley impossible, it is only possible digitally in a labour with clean conditions not in real world, with far higher moisture, different environment, different non perfect coating with RAM, absolutley everything in real combat is worse and that is dozen times worse.
You should take the most likely figure for Raptors RCS which is around 0.01 -0.05m² which was posted here before by Mindstorm in a post of his about russian scientist estimations of F-22 RCS and not this laughable PR they like to shove down everyones throught.
My figure is 0.0001 Not that 0.00001.
and at what band that 0.01-0.05 sqm measured ? and from what aspect.
) STEALTH
Tactical relevant average area of reflection (the value really involved in multi-radial radar illumination in air-to air engagements ,instead of the marketing ,sensationalistic, and purely academic ones obtained at selected hypercritical angles with pencil beam irradiation) for this kind of low observable maneuverable tactical aircraft is literally LIGHT YEARS far from the comical RCS figures usually cited.
The computed figures for effective RCS of the F-22A Raptor , for words of the leading domestic figures of the field -representing ,incidentally, also , in the Theoretic Physics understanding of the involved phenomenon and the principles behind them, also the leading figures on the planet and the same Institutes where them has been developed in first instance - fluctuate all in the range of 0,1 - 0,5 square meters
Владимир Загородний , Главный конструктор ОАО "НИИП имени В.В. Тихомирова"
"Интересно сравнить «дуэльные» возможности авиационных комплексов Су-27СМ2 (Су-35) и F-22A «Сухой», оснащенный «Ирбисом», может обнаружить цель с ЭПР 0.1-0.5 м2 (приблизительно в этом интервале лежит величина эффективной радиолокационной поверхности рассеяния малозаметного самолета Локхид Мартин F/A-22A) на дистанции 165-240 км. В то же время, американский истребитель «видит» своего противника с ЭПР 1 м2 на дистанции лишь 200 км (Jane's All the World's Aircraft 2005-2006). Таким образом, малозаметный «Рэптор» со своей АФАР по части бортового радиолокационного комплекса не имеет никаких реальных преимуществ перед модернизированным «Сухим» в ракетном воздушном бою на «вневизуальной» дальности."
Александр Давиденко ,Главный конструктор ОКБ "Сухой
ЭПР самолетов старого поколения (например, Су-27) составляет около 12 м², тогда как у F-22A Raptor она колеблется в диапазоне 0,3-0,4 м². ЭПР ПАК ФА 'не будет превышать показатели F-22A, она будет к ним очень близка'.
А.Н. Лагарьков. Директор Института теоретической и прикладной электродинамики РАН.
Если в 1980-х годах самолеты типа F-15 имели ЭПР более 10 м2 то у модернизированного авиационного комплекса ЭПР составляет 1-1.5 м2, а у перспективных авиационных комплексов пятого поколения, таких как F-22, JSF, - 0.3 м2.
"Stealth" technology (in its REAL application, implications and tactically relevant order of magnitude) offer ,to tactical aircraft implementing it, an important and , even a deciding tactical advantage ,in particular against legacy opponent within some "threshold" radar detection range and field of view, but nothing even only near to the concept of operation usually linked in public immaginary with the ait-to-air engagements with similar LO platforms.
Werewolf wrote:
Here is the post by Mindstorm refering to scientists estimation for real combat environment.
https://www.russiadefence.net/t2661-how-would-pak-fa-counter-f22-in-future-aerial-warfare
) STEALTH
Tactical relevant average area of reflection (the value really involved in multi-radial radar illumination in air-to air engagements ,instead of the marketing ,sensationalistic, and purely academic ones obtained at selected hypercritical angles with pencil beam irradiation) for this kind of low observable maneuverable tactical aircraft is literally LIGHT YEARS far from the comical RCS figures usually cited.
The computed figures for effective RCS of the F-22A Raptor , for words of the leading domestic figures of the field -representing ,incidentally, also , in the Theoretic Physics understanding of the involved phenomenon and the principles behind them, also the leading figures on the planet and the same Institutes where them has been developed in first instance - fluctuate all in the range of 0,1 - 0,5 square meters
Владимир Загородний , Главный конструктор ОАО "НИИП имени В.В. Тихомирова"
"Интересно сравнить «дуэльные» возможности авиационных комплексов Су-27СМ2 (Су-35) и F-22A «Сухой», оснащенный «Ирбисом», может обнаружить цель с ЭПР 0.1-0.5 м2 (приблизительно в этом интервале лежит величина эффективной радиолокационной поверхности рассеяния малозаметного самолета Локхид Мартин F/A-22A) на дистанции 165-240 км. В то же время, американский истребитель «видит» своего противника с ЭПР 1 м2 на дистанции лишь 200 км (Jane's All the World's Aircraft 2005-2006). Таким образом, малозаметный «Рэптор» со своей АФАР по части бортового радиолокационного комплекса не имеет никаких реальных преимуществ перед модернизированным «Сухим» в ракетном воздушном бою на «вневизуальной» дальности."
Александр Давиденко ,Главный конструктор ОКБ "Сухой
ЭПР самолетов старого поколения (например, Су-27) составляет около 12 м², тогда как у F-22A Raptor она колеблется в диапазоне 0,3-0,4 м². ЭПР ПАК ФА 'не будет превышать показатели F-22A, она будет к ним очень близка'.
А.Н. Лагарьков. Директор Института теоретической и прикладной электродинамики РАН.
Если в 1980-х годах самолеты типа F-15 имели ЭПР более 10 м2 то у модернизированного авиационного комплекса ЭПР составляет 1-1.5 м2, а у перспективных авиационных комплексов пятого поколения, таких как F-22, JSF, - 0.3 м2.
"Stealth" technology (in its REAL application, implications and tactically relevant order of magnitude) offer ,to tactical aircraft implementing it, an important and , even a deciding tactical advantage ,in particular against legacy opponent within some "threshold" radar detection range and field of view, but nothing even only near to the concept of operation usually linked in public immaginary with the ait-to-air engagements with similar LO platforms.
Viktor wrote:Two new Su-35 just joined in
Two Su-35s arrived in the Eastern Military District
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