The Situation in the Ukraine. #23

sepheronx wrote:  Please explain to me why they would do this.

They all were hostile to Plotnitsky LNR gang. Gangsters usually kills competition.

Look at DNR and what happened to LNR. Zakharchenko is just different kind of man.
All those assasinations were done in LNR and not in DNR.

BTW. None of main Plotnitsky men were killed by mysterious "accidents", but all his opposition is now dead ( all hardline anti-oligarchian separatists) not really surprising.
The only unknown variable is extent of Kremlin's hand participation in all this.

Probablility that all those killings were urkian SBU job is actually below zero. (Those idiots couldnt even tie their shoelaces in LNR territory btw. )

sepheronx wrote:If this was the case, and them simply "killing people of the people and people wanting separate state and or part of Russia" would not be waging this war against Kiev either.  LNR is getting bombed and killed much like Donetsk, so your point is moot and goes contrary to what is actually happening and they would simply be part of Ukraine and not fighting, as they would get far more money out of it.  What you are saying simply not only makes no sense, but goes in contrary to what these corrupt officials would want as it eats into their funding.

As anyone with half a brain can tell, even though they "talk of novorussian project is dead", don't seem to see the fact that both Lugansk and Donetsk region is getting shelled even today, and innocent people are dying.  So the question is raised, if these people in power are against the idea of separation and novorussia, then why is there fighting at all?  In what purpose would there be to continue conflict?  Lives lost means money lost and the corrupt people of Lugansk is losing dollars.  So once again, it goes in contrary to what you guys are claiming.

Try again.  Please explain to me why they would do this.

Then some straight talk about the heart of this issue.

Are you seriously saying that all four murders are the doing of SBU, all four in Lugansk, all four not exactly friends with Plotnitsky, and Dremov we now know was on verge of disclosing information about the corruption of Plotnitsky. Maybe you defend Plotnitsky because you see him as Putin's man, and therefore an attack on Plotnitsky is an attack on Putin, which is ridiculous, but I otherwise cannot see your logic. Think about this, Kremlin has repeatedly stated that while Russia certainly has interests in Ukraine and Donbass for historic and cultural reasons, it is not involved in the war in Donbass and does not control the leaders of DNR and LNR who were elected by popular vote. If you defend Plotnitsky because you think he is simply an avatar for Putin, then you are agreeing with Kiev and Washington that Russia controls Donbass in all aspects. Either Kremlin is lying about involvement in Donbass or not, and a defence of Plotnitsky on the unspoken assumption that he is the hand of Putin is tantamount to admitting a lie from Kremlin. There, I have been clear about why I think you, and in past there have been others, leap to defence of Plotnitsky, and if I am wrong, then explain why this is so and why this curious defence of Plotnitsky every time there is the murder of a prominent person in LNR who is, or was, not a political ally of Plotnitsky.

sepheronx wrote:Some of you guys are delusional.

Khepesh, I don't even know who the heck he was till I had to look him up.  Your statement means absolutely zero as to what I am asking and you are trying to divert my question.

I will ask again, in simple terms for some of you:

- What would Moscow gain from killing pro Russians in Ukraine (this is aimed at Beobachtar)
- What would LNR gain from killing people whom are defending their territory?
- If they are a bunch of Kiev tools, then why are they fighting against Kiev and having so many of their own people die, while also committing economic war with each other?
- If they are Putin Corrupt trolls like you say Khepesh, then what do they gain with this with Kiev?  Russia has more to gain with these territories causing trouble for Kiev than they gain being a bunch of Kiev stooges.

Answer these questions first before diverting to something else completely.

Kadmos45 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:  Please explain to me why they would do this.

They all were hostile to Plotnitsky LNR gang. Gangsters usually kills competition.

Look at DNR and what happened to LNR. Zakharchenko is just different kind of man.
All those assasinations were done in LNR and not in DNR.

BTW. None of main Plotnitsky men were killed by mysterious "accidents", but all his opposition is now dead ( all hardline anti-oligarchian separatists) not really surprising.
The only unknown variable is extent of Kremlin's hand participation in all this.

Probablility that all those killings were urkian SBU job is actually below zero. (Those idiots couldnt even tie their shoelaces in LNR territory btw. )

You are the only one that so far actually tried to answer my questions and I give you props for that.  Thanks.

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:This was clearly an act of terrorism and probably by SBU.

The Kremlin is more to blame for this murder than the SBU.

And why is that?  Because they didn't take LNR and DNR into its arms?

Because the Kremlin is supporting the corrupt elites in Donbass.
The Kremlin dislikes idealist people like Mozgovoi and wants them gone.

sepheronx wrote:ISo the question is raised, if these people in power are against the idea of separation and novorussia, then why is there fighting at all?  In what purpose would there be to continue conflict?  Lives lost means money lost and the corrupt people of Lugansk is losing dollars.  So once again, it goes in contrary to what you guys are claiming.

For better terms from Kiev and staying in power.
Kiev's forces are fighting for the same, better terms (capitulation of Donbass rather than Minsk II) and the continuation of Poroshenko's rule.

And why would Kremlin dislike Idealists?  Have you not seen Putin's speeches and what is actually happening?  You will notice that is far from what you are saying and I have a feeling there is a lot of bias-ism from you, which is not surprising seeing your previous comments (Putin gave up, Putin did this and that).  So it is easy to simply ignore you till you actually come up with a convincing argument rather than a simple pie throw about Kremlin.

And they wont gain better terms from Kiev because LNR has been getting some pretty good hardware from Russia (pantsir's mentioned earlier) and clearly that would mean that LNR would be more of a problem for Russia than not if that was the case.  As well, LNR isn't Donbass.  So you are mixing up the two of them.

And who do you not know about, Plotnitsky, or Dremov? It does not matter which for to admit to not knowing who either is rather disqualifies you from making informed comment about the murder of Dremov. My point that the heart of this affair is the curious defence of Plotnitsky is perfectly valid and not any sort of distraction. Some here did not like my posts about the Purgin affair, yet there was admission of not knowing who he was. Seems a pattern here...

Edit: Dremov was probably killed because he said things that were "off message" to what Plotnitsky wants to hear, and because he did not fit into Plotnitsky's "business model". If you do not know who Pavel Dremov was, then how can you say this cannot be so, or present an opposing view. Dremov was well liked, an ordinary guy like Mozgovoi, he was enemies with ukrops, but that is "normal" wartime enemies. At home he had no enemies except those who saw him as an threat because he was not corrupt and would not kow tow to them.

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:.................................

Because the Kremlin is supporting the corrupt elites in Donbass.
The Kremlin dislikes idealist people like Mozgovoi and wants them gone.

..........................

Idealist pose far bigger treat for people they fight for than for their enemies.

To the tin foil hat crew: the mafia sorting would be done after the conflict is over and not in the middle of it.
Mafias are not that stupid. If they undermine their ability to secure the territory for the future, then they lose
everything. A rather straightforward business concept for them to understand.

And please spare the Kremlin machinations crap. The Kremlin supplies the arms, the advisers and the intelligence.
It does not run the local show in LNR and DNR. The claim that Russia is killing off all these brilliant commanders
is exactly the same sort of shit that the Kiev butchers are peddling, that Russia "invaded" poor dear Banderastan,
aka country 404. And if the thesis is that the Kremlin wants to soften up the Novorussians for some deal with
NATO and Banderastan, then why the f*ck would it have helped them to stave off the Kiev assault since early 2014.
The Kremlin could have sat and done nothing and it would have avoided the sanctions and the rest of the crisis
with NATO. Obviously this thesis is BS.

Khepesh wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Khepesh wrote:Answer who would kill Ischenko, Bednov and Mozgovoi, answer why all in LNR and not Donetsk, answer why these men were men of the people and not ass lickers, answer why there was a bomb in Dremov's car and this was not a roadside IED or ambush by "SBU"....

That isn't an answer.  So your views may just be as unfounded.  So you are saying that LNR is secretly Pro Ukrainian and causing any setback?  Or is it that these people were a threat to their rule in LNR?  Talking in rhyms will not help your cause either.

It was a perfectly good answer....
When Mozgovoi was killed the reaction here was partly of the variety, "Well, unfortunate, but he wasn't really a good guy, bla bla bla". I said at the time that Dremov will be next, yet that was simply brushed aside among a flurry of posts desperately defending Plotnitsky and trying to blacken anybody who actually supports Novorossiya. You may not be able to see any connection between these four murders, but it does not take Sherlock Holmes to work it out....

sepheronx is well known here for his lack of even the most rudimentary of analytical abilities. I suggest not responding to any of his posts. He is just a forum wrecking troll.

Once I was trying to explain some aspects of the current world war by drawing parallels with WW2 wherever it was appropriate, and he comes and says "What does WW2 has to do with the current situation."

Needless to say, that very important discussion got wrecked.

sepheronx wrote:- What would Moscow gain from killing pro Russians in Ukraine (this is aimed at Beobachtar)

Did you forget that the Kremlin opposes many Russian nationalists, many people who are pro-Russians?
Being pro-Russian does not make you automatically pro-Kremlin and vice versa.

sepheronx wrote:- What would LNR gain from killing people whom are defending their territory?

They are not considered essential for the defense of the LPR territory.
On the other hand, they do represent a threat to the existing corrupt order.

sepheronx wrote:- If they are a bunch of Kiev tools, then why are they fighting against Kiev and having so many of their own people die, while also committing economic war with each other?

They are not Kiev's tools, but I guess they prefer cooperating with Kiev, see illegal coal trade rather than men in Donbass like Dremov who opposed such crimes.

sepheronx wrote:- If they are Putin Corrupt trolls like you say Khepesh, then what do they gain with this with Kiev?  Russia has more to gain with these territories causing trouble for Kiev than they gain being a bunch of Kiev stooges.

They did not murder Dremov for Kiev. It was for the sake of their own business.

sepheronx wrote:And why would Kremlin dislike Idealists?  Have you not seen Putin's speeches and what is actually happening?  You will notice that is far from what you are saying and I have a feeling there is a lot of bias-ism from you, which is not surprising seeing your previous comments (Putin gave up, Putin did this and that).  So it is easy to simply ignore you till you actually come up with a convincing argument rather than a simple pie throw about Kremlin.

Idealists are harder to control, harder to bribe.
They do not fit as well as others in the system of the Kremlin.

Putin is a politician. Politicians lie a lot. Judge them by their deeds, not their words.

sepheronx wrote:And they wont gain better terms from Kiev because LNR has been getting some pretty good hardware from Russia (pantsir's mentioned earlier) and clearly that would mean that LNR would be more of a problem for Russia than not if that was the case.  As well, LNR isn't Donbass.  So you are mixing up the two of them.

I don't understand what you mean.
Pantsir is irrelevant here.
They are not getting better terms because Kiev does not want to look weak and endanger Poroshenko's rule.
Kiev has already written off Donbass and does not want to regain it as an autonomous region.

PapaDragon wrote:

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:.................................

Because the Kremlin is supporting the corrupt elites in Donbass.
The Kremlin dislikes idealist people like Mozgovoi and wants them gone.

..........................

Idealist pose far bigger treat for people they fight for than for their enemies.

And that is one of the reasons why Maidan won in Ukraine.
Idealists are an essential part of the avantgard.
The DLNR are separate from Ukraine thanks to idealists who were willing to fight from the beginning.

Interfax

Ukraine has swapped a Russian general captured in Donbas for a Ukrainian military serviceman, Ukrainian Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin says. "We swapped a Russian general for one of our military servicemen last week," Klimkin said at a UN Security Council meeting on Friday.

The Russian leadership and the Defense Ministry have repeatedly denied the presence of Russian troops or military servicemen in the Ukrainian territory.

JohninMK wrote:Interfax

Ukraine has swapped a Russian general captured in Donbas for a Ukrainian military serviceman, Ukrainian Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin says. "We swapped a Russian general for one of our military servicemen last week," Klimkin said at a UN Security Council meeting on Friday.

The Russian leadership and the Defense Ministry have repeatedly denied the presence of Russian troops or military servicemen in the Ukrainian territory.

Here is what the MoD of Russia said already. https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1685864411656308&substory_index=0&id=1492252324350852

MoD of Russia wrote:Russian Defence Ministry refutes the statement of the head of the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry made at the session of the UN Security Council about allegedly swapped “Russian General” for one Ukrainian serviceman last week

It is difficult to assess what effect the head of the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry Pavel Klimkin wanted to achieve by taking the name of Elvis Presley in vain during the session of the UN Security Council. May be, Mr. Klimkin wanted to cast a shadow over acrobatic etudes of Arseniy Yatsenyuk in Rada yesterday?
It came as always…

No captured Russian Generals are in Ukraine. There has not been one. Knowing nothing about it is a fatal mistake for the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

The Ukrainian colleagues are fond of speaking mediocre English instead of their native language (or even Russian, which they speak fluently) to the foreign audience.

Such linguistic knowledge multiplied by implacable ambitions turned Major into Major General by translating from Ukrainian into English.

The Russian Defence Ministry fully supports Mr. Klimkin saying that “the volume of lies will not change the real facts”.

Possibly it was a Freudian slip.

On Friday, December 11, speaking at the UN Security Council session the Ukrainian Foreign Minister said: “We swapped a Russian General for one Ukrainian serviceman last week. Of course, Russia can say that Elvis Presley is alive, but the volume of lies will not change the real facts”.

Thanks Guys, a Major makes a lot more sense than a 2*.

JohninMK wrote:Thanks Guys, a Major makes a lot more sense than a 2*.

A major driving a truck full of weaponry by himself still makes a pretty awful cover story for the Hohols.

Ivan Katchanovski
1 hr ·

Another Maidan massacre bombshell unreported by Ukrainian and Western media: The General Prosecutor Office of Ukraine (GPU) almost two years since the Maidan massacre launched an investigation about a group of armed persons whom GPU now officially declared as possible suspects in shooting Maidan protesters and the police from the Hotel Ukraina. This is revealed in a Kyiv court decision, which has been posted in the official online database of court decisions.
http://reyestr.court.gov.ua/Review/52239946

GPU requested a court authorization to obtain cell phone tracking information about an unidentified person from an Internet video, which shows this armed person among a group of gunmen in one of the rooms of the Hotel Ukraina during the Maidan massacre on February 20, 2014. This description only fits Ruptly and ZDF videos, which show armed members of the special company of the Maidan Self-defence in a room of this German TV channel on the 14th floor of the Hotel Ukraina. They were escorted by an armed Svoboda leader and Parasiuk, commander of this company, who became a member of the parliament. One of these "snipers" was filmed shooting in the direction of the protesters from a twin-barrel IZh-56 hunting rifle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2PTeUBCPAQ
https://www.facebook.com/ivan.katchanovski/videos/vb.100000596862745/989716864391533

This group of the Maidan "snipers" in the Hotel Ukraina was secret de Polichinelle. Social media users in the beginning of this year found that one of members of this group shown in these videos served in the Aidar battalion and even openly posed in a joint photo with Moskal, who headed a parliamentary commission concerning the Maidan massacre. http://espreso.tv/…/moskal_zustriv_quotrabovlasnykaquot_fot…

I analyzed these videos and related information in my APSA conference paper (pp. 48-50) http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2658245

It honestly would not surprise me if GRU(FSB operates only inside Russia's borders) had a hand in some of this, you all know that the Russian Federation does not want the LPR and DPR to become seperate territories from the Ukraine, right?

If they do, then NATO could accept Ukraine as a member, since it technically won't have any border disputes to settle. Of course, those fighting in Novorossiya might not be so ecstatic about remaining a part of the Ukraine to serve as a barrier to NATO membership, so naturally they would push for secession, thus putting the Federation's interests at risk. For this, they payed the ultimate price...


Game of Thrones stuff right here.

x_54_u43 wrote:It honestly would not surprise me if GRU(FSB operates only inside Russia's borders) had a hand in some of this, you all know that the Russian Federation does not want the LPR and DPR to become seperate territories from the Ukraine, right?

If they do, then NATO could accept Ukraine as a member, since it technically won't have any border disputes to settle. Of course, those fighting in Novorossiya might not be so ecstatic about remaining a part of the Ukraine to serve as a barrier to NATO membership, so naturally they would push for secession, thus putting the Federation's interests at risk. For this, they payed the ultimate price...


Game of Thrones stuff right here.

Non sequitur inference. If the Kremlin was going to engage in this sort of meddling just keep the DNR and LNR part of Ukraine, it would have
left them alone from April of 2014 and let Kiev roll over them.

Its a war, and in war - GOOD PEOPLE DIE. Now it doesnt matter if their death is a result of enemy fire or because your friends sold you out.

Many people died in Donbass. I remember how they sent Batman's group on a real suicide mission.

LPR needs to sort its shit out because I still dont know if those guys are pro Ukraine or not. There is a reason Kremlin put Igor there.

Also, stop going from - I SUPPORT NOVOROSSIYA to I hate Kremlin for killing these people in Novorossiya. Take a side and stand by it. In a war like this , there are no 'good' sides.

kvs wrote:To the tin foil hat crew: the mafia sorting would be done after the conflict is over and not in the middle of it.
Mafias are not that stupid.   If they undermine their ability to secure the territory for the future, then they lose
everything.   A rather straightforward business concept for them to understand.  

And please spare the Kremlin machinations crap.   The Kremlin supplies the arms, the advisers and the intelligence.  
It does not run the local show in LNR and DNR.    The claim that Russia is killing off all these brilliant commanders  
is exactly the same sort of shit that the Kiev butchers are peddling, that Russia "invaded" poor dear Banderastan,
aka country 404.   And if the thesis is that the Kremlin wants to soften up the Novorussians for some deal with
NATO and Banderastan, then why the f*ck would it have helped them to stave off the Kiev assault since early 2014.
The Kremlin could have sat and done nothing and it would have avoided the sanctions and the rest of the crisis
with NATO.   Obviously this thesis is BS.    

Perhaps you can provide a rational explanation for the four murders, like explain why all four are in Lugansk and none in Donetsk, like all four were not political or commercial allies of Plotnitsky, like Dremov was to expose Plotnitsky's corruption. Your post simply backs up my claim that the curious defence of Plotnitsky is only about seeing him as Putin's hand and so an accusation against Plotnitsky is to be treated as an attack on Putin, quelle horreur!, which it is not. Read this from November 2014 written after the first attempt on Mozgovoi and honestly say it is "tin foil hat" in the light of what had already occured and has occured since. http://n-ostenbaken.livejournal.com/2134.html What was said by some even further back after the murder of Ishchenko has become reality, and after Mozgovoi it became obvious to many who were skeptical about all this that there is something very wrong in Lugansk and that the writing was on the wall for Dremov, well, now the writing is on his gravestone.

sepheronx wrote:Khepesh and others seem to instantly jump to conclusions, like they have in the past, I myself being guilty of it too of course.  But that doesn't mean that someone cannot argue it when there is no proof of the incident.  Coincidences happen a lot.

I reach conclusions based on what is known and what is more likely to be correct than not correct. I correctly called that Purgin was in the basement, against cries here that he was not. I correctly called the attacks on Dokuchaevsk in early January while ukrops tanks were still in the process of advancing over the fields and before even Rozhin and the other usual sources had woken up. I correctly guessed about the attack on Marinka that same day even before it happened. In February I called a Kiev offensive for late August or early September, with an occasional variation due to changes as time went by, and we know that Kiev was going to attack then but was stopped. I do not want to seem im-modest, and I have been wrong at times, but if you say I "instantly jump to conclusions", then I will refute that. You talk about "coincidences happen a lot", true, they do happen, but it shows a remarkable lack of inquisitiveness to simply brush aside the four prominent murders in LNR as "coincidence", and to me it is very suspicious that certainly since the murder of Mozgovoi that there is an attempt to put a lid on any discussion as to who maybe responsible. I have re-checked my posts and I see that at no time do I say to Plotnitsky "j'accuse", certainly I heavily hint that it may be him, but based on probabilities, not "jumping to conclusions". It may even be the truth that Plotnitsky has not directly ordered these murders, but history is littered with examples, particulary the mafia, of the boss never giving a written order, never even giving a verbal order to do anything illegal, all simply being done by a "nod and a wink", or veiled speech. Sometimes their minions get the message wrong and do something that was not required, or sometimes to gain favor they will commit a murder or other crime as they think their boss will approve. Maybe this occurs around Plotnitsky, maybe not. In the case of Dremov's murder yesterday it was clearly an "inside job" as SBU operatives or any group controlled by SBU could not have known his movements on that day, which were not routine due to the wedding. Coincidence can only be stretched so far, and I think any possibility of coincidence broke with Mozgovoi.

Mariana Naumova, who knew Dremov, has written from Stakhanov. "Bitter news, in Stakhanov we created our own world, with working people's councils, without corruption and crime, and for that he was killed". No link, so it is believed or not, I do not care.

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x_54_u43 wrote:It honestly would not surprise me if GRU(FSB operates only inside Russia's borders) had a hand in some of this, you all know that the Russian Federation does not want the LPR and DPR to become seperate territories from the Ukraine, right?

If they do, then NATO could accept Ukraine as a member, since it technically won't have any border disputes to settle. Of course, those fighting in Novorossiya might not be so ecstatic about remaining a part of the Ukraine to serve as a barrier to NATO membership, so naturally they would push for secession, thus putting the Federation's interests at risk. For this, they payed the ultimate price...


Game of Thrones stuff right here.

We had that before like roughly half a year or a year back and that is exactly the point. If LNR or DNR split up it just shows the western world "imperialism" and would create more problems by feeding the Putin is an Emperor nonsense and Russia wants everything. To keep ukraine as a whole is important for the long run. The splitting of ukraine want do any good in long term, hardly any good thing in short term. As soon as they would splitt apart from Ukraine there will be only them drawing lines on maps, but they still would be shelled and noone would see them as independent it would be a massive blowback and justify NATO while there are still many ukrops who have not lost their chicken heads to believe that russia is invading them and NATO is a saint and saivor.

Overtime Russia will not just get some of its territory back and its own population with it but the entire thing.

Maybe they should give Lvov and Lviv and other Bastardestan cities and give them to Poland let the nazis fight with the polish nazis don't let them run around in Russia or Russian countries.