flamming_python wrote: He's being very reasonable and conciliatory. I think if Russia downed a Turkish aircraft I wouldn't react differently.
After so many pages and nearly 2 days of news stream he posted "It looks like mistake". That's not reasonable, that's biased. It most definitely never looked like a mistake, unless we're debating what constitutes a mistake.
Our authorities made a bad mistake and i feel extremly sorry for this and hope we can find a way to solve this. I understand why people are angry.
That's fair enough, I have nothing against citizens on the other side but leaderships and I disagree with ideologies. Take care kardes, God help us all.
KoTeMoRe wrote:Russians allegedly ripping up Azzaz and there's tap about double cover (planes hit, move out, MLRS hit, reload, other planes hit, MLRS hit again).
Check the Russians in Syria thread here, I posted the videos
Last edited by KiloGolf on Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
I'm not sure, maybe this was already posted (however, I read several threads and didn't see it), if it was - please excuse me and delete.
According to this guy - http://ntv.livejournal.com/426110.html - the fucker who killed the descending pilot is Alpaslan Celik, who is a Turk (not a turkmen) and a member of ultra-right movement Bozkurt:
I hope the right people are making the needed preparations and he will get what he has deserved. Maybe not tomorrow, but one day.
P.S. Guys, can you please listen to Flaming Python? He is right, that "let's nuke the country" talk is stupid. I'm as much pissed as any of you, believe me! but yesterday's murders have actual culprits - that is the guy and his gang on photos above and Erdogan and his crooks; plus the Turkish pilots who shot the plane down. I'm sure the guy from photos will eat his portion of lead, I'll fully support downing of any Turkish plane the second they violate any border, be it Syria's or Iraq's, I'll be glad if something happens to Erdogan, but please be real and understand that the Turkey is a giant country with huge population, and I'm pretty sure not all of them are supporting Erdogan, not to even mention ISIS. don't be idiots shouting "death to them etc". you won' achieve anything with this but it will make you look like a bigger douche.
Mustafa wrote: And what now? Whats your solution to solve this? Yes it looks bad for us and we have done a mistake. I feel sorry for what happened. I already said this.
Well, I guess the best answer to your question could be found in this video of recent Lavrov interview (dubbed in English):
The pertinent points are covered from around 18:40->30:00. However, the entire interview sheds a lot of light on the entire situation (including political context), is incredibly informative, and I suggest everyone to watch it (I did).
Lavrov tends to be overly diplomatic and careful with his choice of words and has a habit of becoming too tangential in his interviews, but from "reading between the lines" I gathered that serious action by Turkey in regards to countering armed militant groups in Syria would be very well regarded (such as blocking militants and equipment from crossing Syria/Turkey border, halting of all training sites for militants within Turkey, that sort of thing).
PS: last post by sepheronx in this thread summarized the situation rather well, although I must admit I am not a fan of attacking embassies (either Russian embassies by Turks/Poles/Balts or vice versa). Although the police in Moscow did not hinder the throwing of projectiles at the embassy, to their credit they did cordon off the crowd and did not allow them close or into the building (which was not even fenced off), thus minimizing the potential damage.
Last edited by Acheron on Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
Following spokesman of USA Ministry of Exterior Mr.Toner statement from yesterday - shooting-down pilot on parachute is not a war crime but selfdefence ?!?!? WTF?!?!?
Quote :
QUESTION: Turkoman forces in Syria said they killed the two Russian pilots as they descended in parachutes.
MR TONER: Yeah.
QUESTION: Turkoman forces are supported by Turkey and are fighting against the Syrian Government, they are part of the rebel force there. Do you consider these rebels to be a moderate force in Syria?
MR TONER: So a couple of thoughts, one – or a couple points: One is we’ve seen conflicting views, as I think Said just mentioned. We’ve also seen that one pilot may not have been killed. If these were – if these Turkoman were actually the – being attacked by these Russian strikes, they have every right to defend themselves. But that said, we don’t – that said, we don’t know --
link http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2015/11/249928.htm#TURKEY
Mustafa wrote: And what now? Whats your solution to solve this? Yes it looks bad for us and we have done a mistake. I feel sorry for what happened. I already said this.
Well, I guess the best answer to your question could be found in this video of recent Lavrov interview (dubbed in English):
The pertinent points are covered from around 18:40->30:00. However, the entire interview sheds a lot of light on the entire situation (including political context), is incredibly informative, and I suggest everyone to watch it (I did).
Lavrov tends to be overly diplomatic and careful with his choice of words and has a habit of becoming too tangential in his interviews, but from "reading between the lines" I gathered that serious action by Turkey in regards to countering armed militant groups in Syria would be very well regarded (such as blocking militants and equipment from crossing Syria/Turkey border, halting of all training sites within Turkey, that sort of thing).
I´m sure we find a solution to deal with this and bring things to normal.
Python and bolt are correct. And anyway, the people who have more rights to be pissed are Python, Ult and Auslander since they are living in Russia. Rest of us are just sad about the situation.
Anyway, Russia is now moving heavy equipment to Syria and I think kote is correct about how Turkey actually screwed up any potential chances for NATO countries to do as they please in Syria. With the whole Moskva cruiser, S-300/400 planned and fighter escort for bombers.
Mustafa wrote:And what now? Whats your solution to solve this? Yes it looks bad for us and we have done a mistake. I feel sorry for what happened. I already said this.
Very simple. First you let the Russians retrieve the pilot's body. Secondly your egotripping president stops sending weapons to Syria and stops buying cheap oil from ISIS. Last but not least, you will let the Russian VKS bomb the Turkmens into the stone age.
Mustafa wrote:And what now? Whats your solution to solve this? Yes it looks bad for us and we have done a mistake. I feel sorry for what happened. I already said this.
Very simple. First you let the Russians retrieve the pilot's body. Secondly your egotripping president stops sending weapons to Syria and stops buying cheap oil from ISIS. Last but not least, you will let the Russian VKS bomb the Turkmens into the stone age.
On that last part they got no say now. Unless they want also to refresh their pilots with the SERE course.
Mustafa wrote: And what now? Whats your solution to solve this? Yes it looks bad for us and we have done a mistake. I feel sorry for what happened. I already said this.
Well, I guess the best answer to your question could be found in this video of recent Lavrov interview (dubbed in English):
The pertinent points are covered from around 18:40->30:00. However, the entire interview sheds a lot of light on the entire situation (including political context), is incredibly informative, and I suggest everyone to watch it (I did).
Lavrov tends to be overly diplomatic and careful with his choice of words and has a habit of becoming too tangential in his interviews, but from "reading between the lines" I gathered that serious action by Turkey in regards to countering armed militant groups in Syria would be very well regarded (such as blocking militants and equipment from crossing Syria/Turkey border, halting of all training sites within Turkey, that sort of thing).
I´m sure we find a solution to deal with this and bring things to normal.
Just curious here, you as a Kemalist Turk, would you be cok iyi with the Assad regime restoring control over all border areas which after all is the end game of Russian intervention; preserving Syria as a complete state with all its areas and under the control of a regime which will result from a compromise/elections of all Syrians, inlcluding only those groups willing to come to terms with the regime and relinquish all ties with ISIS and Nusra? Could you live with Turkmen in Syria once more being part of a Syrian unified state?
Mustafa wrote:And what now? Whats your solution to solve this? Yes it looks bad for us and we have done a mistake. I feel sorry for what happened. I already said this.
Very simple. First you let the Russians retrieve the pilot's body. Secondly your egotripping president stops sending weapons to Syria and stops buying cheap oil from ISIS. Last but not least, you will let the Russian VKS bomb the Turkmens into the stone age.
The bad things done by a few should not be pushed on all. Look...i agree that killing pilot in parachute was a crime. Evryone in turkey thinks so and i feel ashamed for it. But turkmens are our brothers. Just as russians defend theirs in east ukraine you can understand our feelings regarding that.
I totally agree that we must push up our efforts against ISIS. We did not enough and we could do much more. I promise you the one who killed pilot did a crime and will be punished but don´t expect us to stand against our brothers.
I agree with most things you said but there is always a red line when it goes collective against your own people.
Mustafa wrote: And what now? Whats your solution to solve this? Yes it looks bad for us and we have done a mistake. I feel sorry for what happened. I already said this.
Well, I guess the best answer to your question could be found in this video of recent Lavrov interview (dubbed in English):
The pertinent points are covered from around 18:40->30:00. However, the entire interview sheds a lot of light on the entire situation (including political context), is incredibly informative, and I suggest everyone to watch it (I did).
Lavrov tends to be overly diplomatic and careful with his choice of words and has a habit of becoming too tangential in his interviews, but from "reading between the lines" I gathered that serious action by Turkey in regards to countering armed militant groups in Syria would be very well regarded (such as blocking militants and equipment from crossing Syria/Turkey border, halting of all training sites within Turkey, that sort of thing).
I´m sure we find a solution to deal with this and bring things to normal.
Just curious here, you as a Kemalist Turk, would you be cok iyi with the Assad regime restoring control over all border areas which after all is the end game of Russian intervention; preserving Syria as a complete state with all its areas and under the control of a regime which will result from a compromise/elections of all Syrians, inlcluding only those groups willing to come to terms with the regime and relinquish all ties with ISIS and Nusra? Could you live with Turkmen in Syria once more being part of a Syrian unified state?
It will be very hard, dont you think? Its alot about security guarantees, save face and so on.
German MOD has thrown the Turks under the bus. Your president and his military fucked up big time.
Lenta is quoting Bild:
"По информации издания, в немецком военном ведомстве также не верят и в то, что российские пилоты преднамеренно нарушили турецкую границу, отмечая, что преднамеренное нарушение границы было не в российских интересах. Bild отмечают, что в НАТО тоже полагают, что нарушение турецкого воздушного пространства со стороны России произошло «случайно»."
"According to the institute, the German ministry doesn't believe that the Russian pilots deliberately violated the Turkish border, pointing out that it wasn't in Russia's interests. Bild points out that NATO also believes the violation was accidental and not deliberate."
Neutrality wrote:you will let the Russian VKS bomb the Turkmens into the stone age.
Russians officially confirmed that there are elements of Russian artillery brigade in Syria. No need for planes near the border, the massive firepower can be provided by shelling the shit out of them. However, a cool head is always a requirement - do they need to be cleaned right now or can it wait after the victory on the more important fronts?[/quote]
Last edited by Bolt on Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
Fred333 wrote: Just curious here, you as a Kemalist Turk, would you be cok iyi with the Assad regime restoring control over all border areas which after all is the end game of Russian intervention; preserving Syria as a complete state with all its areas and under the control of a regime which will result from a compromise/elections of all Syrians, inlcluding only those groups willing to come to terms with the regime and relinquish all ties with ISIS and Nusra? Could you live with Turkmen in Syria once more being part of a Syrian unified state?
Good question!
Edit: I should have expected an evasive answer though lol
Fred333 wrote: Just curious here, you as a Kemalist Turk, would you be cok iyi with the Assad regime restoring control over all border areas which after all is the end game of Russian intervention; preserving Syria as a complete state with all its areas and under the control of a regime which will result from a compromise/elections of all Syrians, inlcluding only those groups willing to come to terms with the regime and relinquish all ties with ISIS and Nusra? Could you live with Turkmen in Syria once more being part of a Syrian unified state?
Good question!
Edit: I should have expected an evasive answer though lol
Yeah... :/ But this is the main question though, I think in the end Qatar/KSA and US will give up their agendas and let Russia and Iran sort it out. Jordan will probably be happy the no longer have to push all sorts of Sunni groups which also threaten to undermine their own state. But Turkey...they invested so much in this conflict + Erdogan is the kind of guy who just can't let go, he's too emotional and unstable. Getting Turkey to accept game is over will be the main obstacle to solving this war.
Fred333 wrote: Just curious here, you as a Kemalist Turk, would you be cok iyi with the Assad regime restoring control over all border areas which after all is the end game of Russian intervention; preserving Syria as a complete state with all its areas and under the control of a regime which will result from a compromise/elections of all Syrians, inlcluding only those groups willing to come to terms with the regime and relinquish all ties with ISIS and Nusra? Could you live with Turkmen in Syria once more being part of a Syrian unified state?
Good question!
Edit: I should have expected an evasive answer though lol
Yeah... :/ But this is the main question though, I think in the end Qatar/KSA and US will give up their agendas and let Russia and Iran sort it out. Jordan will probably be happy the no longer have to push all sorts of Sunni groups which also threaten to undermine their own state. But Turkey...they invested so much in this conflict + Erdogan is the kind of guy who just can't let go, he's too emotional and unstable. Getting Turkey to accept game is over will be the main obstacle to solving this war.
Yep, you nailed it. KSA/Qatar have their hands full in Yemen, so forcing them let go of their investments in Syria to focus on Yemen could work. The US, though, is prestige bound to stay in the fight in order to have the greatest say in the Syria end game. Hence why they officially washed their hands of the militants they trained in Turkey (unofficially, they are still present in N/NW of Syria) and created their new Kurdo-Arab proxy group in NE Syria. Jordan just does what the US decides for them to do, while Turkey will prove....difficult (as evident from recent events).
I think that possession of Aleppo region is the crucial card that everyone wants to hold in their decks once the dust settles and the end game negotiations begin. If SAA+Russia+Iran+others will be able to secure Aleppo and surrounding areas, it might well be that the war will quieten down very suddenly, everyone will come to an agreement (beneficial to SAA+Russia+Iran, of course), and IS (if it still exists at the time) will quickly crumble.
Mustafa wrote:And what now? Whats your solution to solve this? Yes it looks bad for us and we have done a mistake. I feel sorry for what happened. I already said this.
Very simple. First you let the Russians retrieve the pilot's body. Secondly your egotripping president stops sending weapons to Syria and stops buying cheap oil from ISIS. Last but not least, you will let the Russian VKS bomb the Turkmens into the stone age.
The bad things done by a few should not be pushed on all. Look...i agree that killing pilot in parachute was a crime. Evryone in turkey thinks so and i feel ashamed for it. But turkmens are our brothers. Just as russians defend theirs in east ukraine you can understand our feelings regarding that.
I totally agree that we must push up our efforts against ISIS. We did not enough and we could do much more. I promise you the one who killed pilot did a crime and will be punished but don´t expect us to stand against our brothers.
I agree with most things you said but there is always a red line when it goes collective against your own people.
Aaand there lies the rub. The IHH (turkish org) just sent about 20 trucks to Nusra today. They were bombed by Russia just after Kilis. You just can't keep this, nothing happens stance. Russia and Ukraine fighting is tragedy. But you're sending your people to kill Arabs. That's completely different. Now the game is this, Turkey gave a pretext to Russia to make the Turkmen bleed. Erdogan should have thought it better before acting.
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