Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

Oguzhanoz wrote:1. AIM-9X Sidewinder. It is a short range IR based missile. It has %100 kill ratio so far.
2. I don't know how to add photo here but Turkish government released the radar map.There were 2 planes and 1 entered the Turkish airspace.
3. Turkey is lying about the plane or not.You are sure about Turkey was lying,so no need to answer.
But i can make a statement,hope it gives you another perspective about the situation.
It is indicated that Russian military has connected with Turkish military about the flight zones and peace threathy about the planes over syria.There is no agreement for Russia to use Turkish airspace(that's almost impossible because of NATO). But it is agreed that to contact with 1 radia frequency with russian planes and it is always used so far.
Su24 or whatever plane is understanable if only plane recognition signals are open.The plane may not be visible for eyes,but you can do it with signals.
There are mostly russian and syrian planes over there,that syria already shot down and f/4 of Turkish air forces.So the rules for us works like-Start warning the plane from 10km away from border.It is done.But appearently the communication line was closed.Maybe because of the technical disabilities su-24m wasn't even aware that they are entering the Turkish airspace.
4. The targets we hit is in irak and syria is on artillery range.But air forces has more than %90 hit rate and thats why we were using air force.I think goverment don't want to rise the tansion and gave it a break.We are still hitting but not that much for now.Turkey and Russia is unseperatable in this geography,but you know,things might be different in politics and on field.

1. Hardly AIM9 (it would have meant almost maximum distance from Interceptor to Target). At Mach 2.7 max speed the AIM9X should have covered about 800m/s, so IF the F16 launches from initial border crossing that means that missile has flown for 13.5 km already (Mathematics). Given the Interception happened about 1 to 4 km out of Turkish airspace according to Russian or Turkish variants, that means the missile fat least two to 5 seconds more. Total time of flight for AIM9X at best 19 seconds at worst 22 seconds. The decision to shoot the plane was taken before it had done anything wrong. Impossible to have been AIM9 variant for such a short notice interception, because the missile couldn't catch with the plane inside the Turkish territory. Also two planes fired, only one missile hit. Not 100%. Strike one.
2. Two planes crossed the Turkish airspace (according to Turkish complaint), TWO. Both entered on a north south general axis. That's why your guys produced that fake ass audio about "going south". To go back to Bassel al Assad IAP you can't go but South. Strike two.
3. Turkey is lying because of what it has said, and what it has done. No one launches a short range missile on basically BVR mode against an UFO. That's not even practised in war times unless in theatre.
Russia uses NATO airspace when it can't do otherwise, look at recent US request to Greece and Bulgaria to stop Russia from using their airspaces. There was no visual recognition of the aircrafts by Turkey, nor was there signalling from interceptors to target regarding the fire. No fire check or sommation from Turkish AF or Interceptors. It's a whole range of things Turkey hasn't done. It stays at safe distance and fired missiles. Saying they didn't knew who was there, is also complete bollocks in the air that time were at least 2 ELINT planes (three if we count the Israelis) that could talk to Turkey and feed data about who was were. Turkey says it was following the planes and communicating them to stay away? Why? The Turkish data over the Russian flight is comical. You can see the bombers are in a strike mission, IN SYRIA. You can see they do NOT aim for the Turkish border. Strike three.
4. Turkish AF is stopping all overflights, because it doesn't want what? Raising tensions? With Erdogan saying Russia should appologise? Listen I understand you want to muddle the talk here since the good guy Mustafa got it wrong, but it doesn't work. According to the data you gave this is an ambush. According to the missile used it is nothing else. Said to Mustafa, telling this to you, enjoy dead Turkmens and blown convoys, it will last until you get back there in Syria and Russians blow you out of the sky. It's not a threat, it's a promise Putin made when he said, he couldn't exclude more "accidents". Strike 4.


There's not a single ounce of truth in your words, judged by Turkish sources and facts. So what's your purpose here?

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:1. What missile was used against SU-24M2.

It cannot be a radar-guided one, as I have explained previously. F-16's 20 mm gun is the most probable.

KoTeMoRe wrote:2. Engagement coordinates? Interceptor CC, Target CC.

Russians have said it already.

KoTeMoRe wrote:3. Why is Turkey lying about not knowing plane was Russian.

Because US didn't tell them before the event.

KoTeMoRe wrote:4. Why did Turkey stopped its air transgression over Syria and Iraq?

Because of the Russian ultimatum. Apparently they have stopped flying even within "their" boundaries.

1. We don't know, the fact it hit the engine indicates IR, but doesn't mean much.
2. Navigator said it was missile and it hit the side of the plane, Ir goes for the source, maybe IR, but maybe not. Russians have given their apocalyptic version, I don't belive that attempt to make this some kind of bad movie. This was preplanned and the Turks couldn't risk to get OVER the border. Although their own radar make the F16 disappear just before crossing the Syrian AS.
3. Listen the Turks were looking at a pair of Russian planes, the Turks complained, to the Russian ambassador, allegedly giving him Viscon fo Russian Sukhois. That's not "not knowing who was there".
4. This is indeed true.

This article is about Erdogan saying to CNN that if any Turkish aircraft is shot down by S-400 then they will be forced to take further measures, which he does not discuss. bla bla bla for all that, but what is interesting is the poll under the article. I know these internet polls are not precise and open to abuse, but more than 10,000 have voted so far to the question, "Has your attitude to Turkey changed after VKS aircraft was downed". 45% have voted for the option "Yes, and I demand Russia makes a hard military response". This poll only opened today so the immediate heat has gone, yet so many want military action. It will not happen, but it shows the mood. A very few voted that their atitude has not changed and nothing will happen, with the rest of the votes split between "Yes, and I will never vacation in Turkey", and "Yes, and I will never vacation in Turkey or buy Turkish goods"
http://riafan.ru/485386-erdogan-vozmozhnye-incidenty-s-s-400-stanut-agressiej-protiv-turcii
You have to vote to see the result, I urge voting option 3

higurashihougi wrote:My question is why did the Turk people vote for Erdogan et al. in the first place and is it the time now to kick the a** of Erdogan et al. and replace them with a cleaner, less corrupted goverment ?

No offence here but I cannot stand the idiocy of Erdogan et al. any longer.

In some aspects, Erdogan makes Assad look like a positive saint, and you have to wonder why the US regime change efforts are still directed as Syria and not Turkey.

Acheron wrote:

Oguzhanoz wrote:1. AIM-9X Sidewinder. It is a short range IR based missile. It has %100 kill ratio so far.
2. I don't know how to add photo here but Turkish government released the radar map.There were 2 planes and 1 entered the Turkish airspace.
3. Turkey is lying about the plane or not.You are sure about Turkey was lying,so no need to answer.
But i can make a statement,hope it gives you another perspective about the situation.
It is indicated that Russian military has connected with Turkish military about the flight zones and peace threathy about the planes over syria.There is no agreement for Russia to use Turkish airspace(that's almost impossible because of NATO). But it is agreed that to contact with 1 radia frequency with russian planes and it is always used so far.
Su24 or whatever plane is understanable if only plane recognition signals are open.The plane may not be visible for eyes,but you can do it with signals.
There are mostly russian and syrian planes over there,that syria already shot down and f/4 of Turkish air forces.So the rules for us works like-Start warning the plane from 10km away from border.It is done.But appearently the communication line was closed.Maybe because of the technical disabilities su-24m wasn't even aware that they are entering the Turkish airspace.
4. The targets we hit is in irak and syria is on artillery range.But air forces has more than %90 hit rate and thats why we were using air force.I think goverment don't want to rise the tansion and gave it a break.We are still hitting but not that much for now.Turkey and Russia is unseperatable in this geography,but you know,things might be different in politics and on field.

Here is a question from me:

Is it true that Turkish Ministry of Defense refused to provide to Russia the data pertaining to the supposed warnings issued by Turkish side?

Edit: FYI, please don't spread BS such as "AIM-9X sidewinder has a 100% kill rate", since no missile in the world has such capability. According to statistics, in total 452 Sidewinders were fired during the Vietnam War, resulting in a kill probability of 0.18.

According to Turkish sources two planes fired, only one hit the Sukhoi. That's 50% already. Also you don't need any the Turkish data, their open version is already a bad joke. People like the guy are even less interesting. Says only one plane trespassed while both planes trespassed and given how the Turks are lying, both Russian planes were fired upon. One probably was missed.

KiloGolf wrote:

Oguzhanoz wrote:Hey people,i am new in here.
I am from Turkey,and here to reply all your logical questions.I just found out this topic after the recent news.
I'm not a fanboy,that i will only ask serious question with short answers.
I haven't read all of the previous pages,because it will give wrong information for me.

I'll add some questions on top of Kotemore's

5. were the TuAF Wedgetail AWACS airborne during the incident?
6. which unit did the F-16 that fired the missile belong?
7. have turkish pilots received SAM locks recently?
8. any incidents with RuAF Su-30 so far?

5. US E3's were up. According to Internet. One Isreali Gulfstream 550 was up too. Please no Zionist BS, Iz is most likely to give Info to Russia and has probably done so already, that's why the 400's and the Turkish withdrawal of air assets.
6. Normally Dyarbakir.

Erk wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:My question is why did the Turk people vote for Erdogan et al. in the first place and is it the time now to kick the a** of Erdogan et al. and replace them with a cleaner, less corrupted goverment ?

No offence here but I cannot stand the idiocy of Erdogan et al. any longer.

In some aspects, Erdogan makes Assad look like a positive saint, and you have to wonder why the US regime change efforts are still directed as Syria and not Turkey.

If erdogan was putins best buddy and thinking about dumping nato and housing the russian military you can bet your last rouble that turkey would have been sent some democracy.

Oguzhanoz wrote:Guys,i have an open facebook account etc. I am not an officer lol.Surely payed officers know many more than we know here and we are just sharing ideas in forums.We also have suck forums in Turkey.So please,everyone is sick of fanboys,i would also like to know about your perspective.I am not supporting anything.

5. Awacs ? No. i don't think so. There are always at least 5 planes over syrian and iraq border.most probably it was one of them.It wasn't a special mission.
6. Well i am not sure.F-16's flight at least with 2. and one of them usually has A-A missiles.
7. Yea everyday.After russia get into situation,syrian jets always lock when they are there.We used to get ground unit's locks.
8. No,i haven't heared any so far.

Concerning the Daesh-Turkey collaboration,

9. Which logistics/transport companies get the contracts in/out Syria? Are they based in local turkish regions?


10. Where is the illegal oil going? local consumption or export via turkish ports?


11. Those trucks/tankers going in out of Syria, are they purchased from Europe (Germany used market)? What happens to their number plates when they cross the border?

12. Is there any evidence/photos of contruction materials going in Syria from Turkey to build those oil tanks, storage terminals?

13. and generally, is the Erdogan family now in charge of this mafia state mechanisms or somebody else? Gulf money perhaps?

Since you are local you may have access to 1st hand news in your language.

higurashihougi wrote:My question is why did the Turk people vote for Erdogan et al. in the first place and is it the time now to kick the a** of Erdogan et al. and replace them with a cleaner, less corrupted goverment ?

No offence here but I cannot stand the idiocy of Erdogan et al. any longer.

I did not vote for Erdogan. But i respect what he has done internal for our economy. And i would never stand against the president.

deleted

Oguzhanoz wrote:
Well,appearently everyone is begging to Russia.

like Erdogan now? :d

Oguzhanoz wrote:
Well,there is a europe that says "i won't give you your ships",and you can say nothing.There is an Afghanistan,people with manpads and you just go back home.

Turkish delight changed to Turkish despair now, just pathetic whining of whoosie  
Kinda got the message Ottomans gone, Turkey soon will be but cheer up Kruds will live you like half of country. Kind regards to your superior in Erdo-web-brigades


BTW with aspiring non-Europeans like you always need to start with education, not like minorities in Germany.

You spell Europe, Russia  Kurds you can stay with turkey if you prefer but this does have another meaning in English

Mustafa wrote: I did not vote for Erdogan. But i respect what he has done internal for our economy. And i would never stand against the president.

As a governmental employee guess standing against Erdo would end up your career

BTW so your replacement failed even more miserable then you did so execution of your Syrian sentence is postponed? :d

KiloGolf wrote:

Oguzhanoz wrote:Guys,i have an open facebook account etc. I am not an officer lol.Surely payed officers know many more than we know here and we are just sharing ideas in forums.We also have suck forums in Turkey.So please,everyone is sick of fanboys,i would also like to know about your perspective.I am not supporting anything.

5. Awacs ? No. i don't think so. There are always at least 5 planes over syrian and iraq border.most probably it was one of them.It wasn't a special mission.
6. Well i am not sure.F-16's flight at least with 2. and one of them usually has A-A missiles.
7. Yea everyday.After russia get into situation,syrian jets always lock when they are there.We used to get ground unit's locks.
8. No,i haven't heared any so far.

Concerning the Daesh-Turkey collaboration,

9. Which logistics/transport companies get the contracts in/out Syria? Are they based in local turkish regions?


10. Where is the illegal oil going? local consumption or export via turkish ports?


11. Those trucks/tankers going in out of Syria, are they purchased from Europe (Germany used market)? What happens to their number plates when they cross the border?

12. Is there any evidence/photos of contruction materials going in Syria from Turkey to build those oil tanks, storage terminals?

13. and generally, is the Erdogan family now in charge of this mafia state mechanisms or somebody else? Gulf money perhaps?

Since you are local you may have access to 1st hand news in your language.

Let me answer this. The trucks attacked were most likely from a syrian corporation with syrian drivers. They deliver concrete, food and other daily supply from turkey to syria. They don´t use turkish truck drivers in most cases, because turkish truck drivers are organized in unions and they don´t allow them to go in civil war areas.

KoTeMoRe wrote:1. We don't know, the fact it hit the engine indicates IR, but doesn't mean much.

My reasoning is multi-fold, but the main reason is that the radar-guided AIM-120s, AIM-54s, AIM-7s, and the like have a probability of hit of about zero, while the AIM-9s, in the absence of any EW, have some probability of hit.

As an aside, one fact you may find interesting is that there was at least one requests by US military for AIM-7s that had no homing heads, with the idea being for them to be used in air combat controlled only by their autopilots (only gyro-based, of course) for distracting the opponent. The Israelis actually did that with the Hawk family of SAMs.

So you won't eat any tomatoes this winter ^^
Kiddin.
Well sorry,i would like to write longer but i need to go out for my study.
I'm not judging but there is time between vietnam war and now.
Anyways,let's say i am wrong,but i didn't mean i am %100 right ^^
So,does that mean i can fly a fighter jet anytime in moscow ? is it ok as long as it doesn't carry any weapon ?
Man look, 3 million Turks are living in north syria.There were tons of place and isis targets but Russia was hitting Turks over there,if it is an important position,it was better for Russia to agree with Turks about ending this misery in Syria.Turks already guaranteed Russian benefits in syria.
Turkish A-A missile capability is limited.You can see them with a small search on internet.
Those planes were being watched after they take off,either a recognition plane moved that area or news took of from Turkey to care the area.
It is not first time Russians get in our airspace,Russia is warned many times.This time things didn't work as they consider.
Well Erdogan talks,Putin talks,everyone talks you know.It is politics.Truth is Turkey shot down a Russian plane.
It is understandable that there is an anger between Russian people now,but it is just because they are still thinking that they are still a megapower.Sorry,Russia has no power to keep a war far from it's land in Syria.Even Usa couldn'T do it in Iraq.
And what about Turkey,well actually people are more afraid than us about what may happen.We really don't mind.
Look,you make 3 sentences about a war scenerio,and one is nuclear weapon.Please make logical statement or you just become some government like North Korea that will erase Turkey out of map lol.
There are politics,economics,possibilities and realia.
Maybe Nato wanted Russia to put newer weapons on Syria to renew it's threat library
Now Nato radars are collecting data about Russia 7/24,anytime they turn on their radar,or any time they lock to planes.



Sorry i gotta go but i will try to answer some of your questions.
We think that some of the oil is gone to Syria.Well,how do you think syrian government running itself ?
Maybe some of the oil goes to Iraq,who know. Things are really complicated over there.For example Turkey can not stop illegal product transport in it's kurdish towns.For example if they go and buy,nobody can say anything.Becaouse Turkey can't even stop them.The terrain is so different than any other place.
Erdogan doesn'T have military power but economical.It is something like a money circle.Turkish army is a power itself and out of diplomacy.It has it's own diplomacy.
Turkey buys oil from North iraq kurdish state.If oil comes from them,i don't know.Also kurdish state fights with Ypg.There is a difference,if you learn about it you can enlarge your view.
Sorry i gotta go,see you later guys.

Mustafa wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:My question is why did the Turk people vote for Erdogan et al. in the first place and is it the time now to kick the a** of Erdogan et al. and replace them with a cleaner, less corrupted goverment ?

No offence here but I cannot stand the idiocy of Erdogan et al. any longer.

I did not vote for Erdogan. But i respect what he has done internal for our economy. And i would never stand against the president.

Sounds more like you support him than not. That makes you part of the problem.

Mustafa wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:My question is why did the Turk people vote for Erdogan et al. in the first place and is it the time now to kick the a** of Erdogan et al. and replace them with a cleaner, less corrupted goverment ?

No offence here but I cannot stand the idiocy of Erdogan et al. any longer.

I did not vote for Erdogan. But i respect what he has done internal for our economy. And i would never stand against the president.

Most (but not all) of Turkish government's economic policies under Erdogan were good, I'll give him that. But are you seriously suggesting that you won't criticize any policies of your president just because he is currently president? How common is such a view in Turkey? I don't know about Turks, but Americans (and plenty of other nationalities) love to shit on their presidents. Heck, an approval rating above 35% is considered incredibly good in a Western country.

Mustafa wrote:
Let me answer this. The trucks attacked were most likely from a syrian corporation with syrian drivers. They deliver concrete, food and other daily supply from turkey to syria. They don´t use turkish truck drivers in most cases, because turkish truck drivers are organized in unions and they don´t allow them to go in civil war areas.

When you say "Syrian corporation" I assume you mean volunteers from some of the armed groups controlling the area, right? If so, then Azzaz is known to be controlled by Jabhat al-Nusra, a terrorist group. Do you think it wise that Turkey is essentially sending convoys into the hands of such terrorist groups?

Acheron wrote:

Mustafa wrote:
Let me answer this. The trucks attacked were most likely from a syrian corporation with syrian drivers. They deliver concrete, food and other daily supply from turkey to syria. They don´t use turkish truck drivers in most cases, because turkish truck drivers are organized in unions and they don´t allow them to go in civil war areas.

When you say "Syrian corporation" I assume you mean volunteers from some of the armed groups controlling the area, right? If so, then Azzaz is known to be controlled by Jabhat al-Nusra, a terrorist group. Do you think it wise that Turkey is essentially sending convoys into the hands of such terrorist groups?

It was coordinated by IHH and was aid from IHH, the truckers were Syrian and so were the trucks. Those supplies, whatever they were, were going to JAN anyway, so perfectly correct target.

So you won't eat any tomatoes this winter ^^
Kiddin.
Well sorry,i would like to write longer but i need to go out for my study.
I'm not judging but there is time between vietnam war and now.
Anyways,let's say i am wrong,but i didn't mean i am %100 right ^^
So,does that mean i can fly a fighter jet anytime in moscow ? is it ok as long as it doesn't carry any weapon ?
Man look, 3 million Turks are living in north syria.There were tons of place and isis targets but Russia was hitting Turks over there,if it is an important position,it was better for Russia to agree with Turks about ending this misery in Syria.Turks already guaranteed Russian benefits in syria.
Turkish A-A missile capability is limited.You can see them with a small search on internet.
Those planes were being watched after they take off,either a recognition plane moved that area or news took of from Turkey to care the area.
It is not first time Russians get in our airspace,Russia is warned many times.This time things didn't work as they consider.
Well Erdogan talks,Putin talks,everyone talks you know.It is politics.Truth is Turkey shot down a Russian plane.
It is understandable that there is an anger between Russian people now,but it is just because they are still thinking that they are still a megapower.Sorry,Russia has no power to keep a war far from it's land in Syria.Even Usa couldn'T do it in Iraq.
And what about Turkey,well actually people are more afraid than us about what may happen.We really don't mind.
Look,you make 3 sentences about a war scenerio,and one is nuclear weapon.Please make logical statement or you just become some government like North Korea that will erase Turkey out of map lol.
There are politics,economics,possibilities and realia.
Maybe Nato wanted Russia to put newer weapons on Syria to renew it's threat library Wink
Now Nato radars are collecting data about Russia 7/24,anytime they turn on their radar,or any time they lock to planes.

NATO radars were collecting data on Russian systems all over Russia, that's why they keep making probes to Russian territory (EC 135 that got chased and had to waned in Swedish airspace for 15 minutes). Kaliningrad etc, so yeah.


You're not wrong, you lied. Same for erdogan, what's the difference if humanitarian convoy had or not arms...lel.

For the rest, thanks for outing yourself as a troll.

Sorry i gotta go but i will try to answer some of your questions.
We think that some of the oil is gone to Syria.Well,how do you think syrian government running itself ?
Maybe some of the oil goes to Iraq,who know. Things are really complicated over there.For example Turkey can not stop illegal product transport in it's kurdish towns.For example if they go and buy,nobody can say anything.Becaouse Turkey can't even stop them.The terrain is so different than any other place.
Erdogan doesn'T have military power but economical.It is something like a money circle.Turkish army is a power itself and out of diplomacy.It has it's own diplomacy.
Turkey buys oil from North iraq kurdish state.If oil comes from them,i don't know.Also kurdish state fights with Ypg.There is a difference,if you learn about it you can enlarge your view.
Sorry i gotta go,see you later guys.

Can you send the next Turkish troll with better english parlance please.

Rodinazombie wrote:

Mustafa wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:My question is why did the Turk people vote for Erdogan et al. in the first place and is it the time now to kick the a** of Erdogan et al. and replace them with a cleaner, less corrupted goverment ?

No offence here but I cannot stand the idiocy of Erdogan et al. any longer.

I did not vote for Erdogan. But i respect what he has done internal for our economy. And i would never stand against the president.

Sounds more like you support him than not. That makes you part of the problem.

I´m a patriot. I stand for my nation 100%. Erdogan has his mistakes as any human being. But he is my president and as this i will never stand against him.

I believed russians understand this. They too have a president who ruined their country, is openly homosexual and a corrupt thug. Yet they respect his office.

Mustafa wrote:Assad used poison gas on his own people as well as barrel bombs.

Barrel bombs are nothing; the US and Russia both use vacuum bombs which are far more destructive. But they use them against enemy targets, not just against civilians in order to terrorize them, and I'm sure that the SAA too employs barrel bombs against enemy targets not just random civilians.

The turkmens are safe from him because our protection.

That's fair enough, but then why are the Turkmen at the nexus of a massive supply operation to the 'FSA' (Islamists), and are fighting so vehemently against Assad themselves? Assad hasn't done anything to them, correct me if I'm wrong. Al Nusra is right next to where you say the Turkmen are; they get their supplies from Turkey. I've heard there are Jihadists in precisely that area too. Why are the Turkmen tolerating them? Why is Turkey tolerating them?
Unless of course, they are all really on the same side.

The Syrian Kurds also probably have no love lost for Assad. So what did they do? They sort of declared their own area, armed their own militias and took control - but they didn't, and aren't fighting the SAA, and they are certainly not helping any Islamist groups.

My view is that the Turkmen issue is just used as an excuse by the Turks, as cover for a massive operation to help the largely Islamist insurgency.
If the Turkmen want protection by Turkey I think that's a fair demand, considering the war, but at the moment the situation doesn't look that way to me, it looks like something else is going on.

It's not just Turkey that does this; but Jordan, Israel, etc... too. Look at the map. All the 'strongholds' of FSA/Islamist resistance are right at the Turkish, Israeli, Jordanian borders. This is where they are the most strongest and the most dug in. Are there Turkmen next to Israel and Jordan too?
Syrian aviation can't even bomb these regions; when they tried Israel shot a Syrian plane down (actually I believe it was a Su-24 too), while Syrian planes haven't even dared to approach Turkish airspace as they knew that they will be ambushed and shot down like the Russian Su-24M was.
When Syrian artillery tried to take on the rebels near the Israeli border; Israeli firepower responded and destroyed them (using a pretext of some shells landing on the Israeli-held side of the Golan Heights). The same likely happens on Syria's border with Turkey; I believe I heard about some Syrian vehicles or planes destroyed at the Turkish border a couple of years ago. Since then they haven't gone near it, Syria is no match for the Turkish Army.

So now Russia is going to wipe these dens out. Turkey thought that it could respond to Russian aviation the same way Israel responded to Syrian aviation.
Now Russia has brought in a missile cruiser equipped with a S-300F system, a ground-based S-400 system, and Su-30 fighter escorts. This time, any Turkish attempt to deny Russia will result in a quite catastrophic clash. And Russia will certainly come again. So make your decision.

Let me ask you something, would you allow that a tyrant who used poison gas on his own people is in charge over some of your people? The russians intervened in crimea for far less than that.

Of course not, but are you sure that's what's happening here?

Putin knows this and evryone knows Putin will drop Assad sooner or later. We are in the endgame here. Evry site want to achieve the best outcome for itself. I know that russia must keep that Assad thing running but in the end will drop him.

Assad could be dropped or he could not, it's not for Russia to decide, all Russia can do is advise Syria albeit it of course has a great deal of influence.
My view is that after the war Assad himself might choose to step down, this will satisfy all sides and allow everyone to save face; while still keeping the Syrian state apparatus and government elite intact.

Just explain me how you will hold syria alive when evry single government around it break off diplomatic relations, keep supporting anti assad groups?

Well that's their problem, I hope they will reconsider when the Islamist groups that they are providing cover for are destroyed by Russian aviation. They will have no-one else to help, and will hopefully turn to more pragmatic policies and establish peace with Syria.

Israel has already stated that it won't shoot any Russian planes down, in the wake of the incident between Russia and Turkey, even if they do violate its airspace, and that it doesn't view Russia as an enemy, but as a major player in the region.
So with this message, Israel is stating that it's not going to cover for the Syrian rebel groups near its borders when the Russians come to bomb them. It's washing its hands of them.
Putin met with the Jordanian King just a few days ago. They have good relations, and always have very frank talks. I doubt that the Jordanians will do anything against Russian aviation either.

So that just leaves Turkey. If the Turkmen are the issue; then I'm sure an agreement can be reached. Russia has brokered ceasefires before, and if Turkey wants to protect them directly then I think that would be acceptable. But if deposing Assad is the issue, then no, Turkey's operations will have to be closed down.

I´m full supporting crushing ISIS, PKK, Al Nusra and all those monsters. But Assad is a red line. There is no scenario where Assad can be accepted from Turkey, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, USA, Israel. Its plain and simple impossible.

Assad is accepted or not accepted by his own people. If he's accepted, there's little that anyone from the outside can do about it, nor should do about it. If you want, you can cut off diplomatic relations with Syria - that's your right. But supporting rebel groups won't accomplish anything and will just prolong a needless war and strengthen violent Islamism in the region.
But like I said, probably as a face-saving measure for those who seeked to depose him, he will have the wisdom to step down by himself.

Acheron wrote:

Mustafa wrote:
Let me answer this. The trucks attacked were most likely from a syrian corporation with syrian drivers. They deliver concrete, food and other daily supply from turkey to syria. They don´t use turkish truck drivers in most cases, because turkish truck drivers are organized in unions and they don´t allow them to go in civil war areas.

When you say "Syrian corporation" I assume you mean volunteers from some of the armed groups controlling the area, right? If so, then Azzaz is known to be controlled by Jabhat al-Nusra, a terrorist group. Do you think it wise that Turkey is essentially sending convoys into the hands of such terrorist groups?

concrete and food causes no harm and danger to anyone. Or do you fear they throw tomatoes on you?

And i want to say one thing. The current events there are unfortunate. But nobody in turkey is afraid about Russia. Russia is far over its prime. Its a northern nigeria. All its stockmarket united is smaller than google. Its economy is stagnating and depends on gas and oil. The war in syria can´t be won by russia. As long the sunni nation + turkey don´t agree, no solution will be reached, the war will go on until russia is pushed out.

We should not forget that russia suffered two plane crashs and the one in sinai was far worse for Putin than the downed fighter jet.

Russia isn´t scary. And nobody in turkey is scared about them. So forget about that and it should sit down at table so we solve the problems.

So putin is an open homosexual and russia is a northern nigeria according to you.

LOL, you really should try better than that.

Syrian Minister: the su-24 was shot down because of the interests of Erdogan's son

The oil that ISIS delivers to Turkey, were delivered to a company owned by the son of Recep Tayyip Erdogan, said Syrian information Minister Omran Al-Zoubi. He also believes that Turkey is lying about what warned the Russian crew.

РИА Новости http://ria.ru/world/20151127/1329658111.html#ixzz3sgzEzw7y

The ISIL militants being treated at a hospital owned by of Erdogan daughter

http://politikus.ru/events/63798-boeviki-igil-lechatsya-v-gospitale-prinadlezhaschem-docheri-erdogana.html

The daughter of the Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan is the owner of "secret" military hospital, in which are treated the militants of the terrorist organization ISIS, prohibited in Russia.

So now let´s bombard Turkey as Erdogna lost in my eyes legitimacy (ero can say this about Assad why I cannot say this about Erdogan

flamming_python wrote: Assad is accepted or not accepted by his own people. If he's accepted, there's little that anyone from the outside can do about it, nor should do about it. If you want, you can cut off diplomatic relations with Syria - that's your right. But supporting rebel groups won't accomplish anything and will just prolong a needless war and strengthen violent Islamism in the region.
But like I said, probably as a face-saving measure for those who seeked to depose him, he will have the wisdom to step down by himself.

With country like Turkey where boss of Intel (Musatafa´s boss) is requiring "international recognition" for IGIL? I mean to call a state the bunch of mercenaries and psycho thugs to cut more heads off or burn people alive?  

As long as IGIL will be having Russia as part of caliphate no Erdogan can stop from bombings.

Mustafa wrote:

concrete and food causes no harm and danger to anyone. Or do you fear they throw tomatoes on you?

And i want to say one thing. The current events there are unfortunate. But nobody in turkey is afraid about Russia. Russia is far over its prime. Its a northern nigeria. All its stockmarket united is smaller than google. Its economy is stagnating and depends on gas and oil. The war in syria can´t be won by russia. As long the sunni nation + turkey don´t agree, no solution will be reached, the war will go on until russia is pushed out.

We should not forget that russia suffered two plane crashs and the one in sinai was far worse for Putin than the downed fighter jet.

Russia isn´t scary. And nobody in turkey is scared about them. So forget about that and it should sit down at table so we solve the problems.

you are joking right??

flamming_python wrote:

Mustafa wrote:Assad used poison gas on his own people as well as barrel bombs.

Barrel bombs are nothing; the US and Russia both use vacuum bombs which are far more destructive. But they use them against enemy targets, not just against civilians in order to terrorize them, and I'm sure that the SAA too employs barrel bombs against enemy targets not just random civilians.

The turkmens are safe from him because our protection.

That's fair enough, but then why are the Turkmen at the nexus of a massive supply operation to the 'FSA' (Islamists), and are fighting so vehemently against Assad themselves? Assad hasn't done anything to them, correct me if I'm wrong. Al Nusra is right next to where you say the Turkmen are; they get their supplies from Turkey. I've heard there are Jihadists in precisely that area too. Why are the Turkmen tolerating them? Why is Turkey tolerating them?
Unless of course, they are all really on the same side.

The Syrian Kurds also probably have no love lost for Assad. So what did they do? They sort of declared their own area, armed their own militias and took control - but they didn't, and aren't fighting the SAA, and they are certainly not helping any Islamist groups.

My view is that the Turkmen issue is just used as an excuse by the Turks, as cover for a massive operation to help the largely Islamist insurgency.
If the Turkmen want protection by Turkey I think that's a fair demand, considering the war, but at the moment the situation doesn't look that way to me, it looks like something else is going on.

It's not just Turkey that does this; but Jordan, Israel, etc... too. Look at the map. All the 'strongholds' of FSA/Islamist resistance are right at the Turkish, Israeli, Jordanian borders. This is where they are the most strongest and the most dug in. Are there Turkmen next to Israel and Jordan too?
Syrian aviation can't even bomb these regions; when they tried Israel shot a Syrian plane down (actually I believe it was a Su-24 too), while Syrian planes haven't even dared to approach Turkish airspace as they knew that they will be ambushed and shot down like the Russian Su-24M was.
When Syrian artillery tried to take on the rebels near the Israeli border; Israeli firepower responded and destroyed them (using a pretext of some shells landing on the Israeli-held side of the Golan Heights). The same likely happens on Syria's border with Turkey; I believe I heard about some Syrian vehicles or planes destroyed at the Turkish border a couple of years ago. Since then they haven't gone near it, Syria is no match for the Turkish Army.

So now Russia is going to wipe these dens out. Turkey thought that it could respond to Russian aviation the same way Israel responded to Syrian aviation.
Now Russia has brought in a missile cruiser equipped with a S-300F system, a ground-based S-400 system, and Su-30 fighter escorts. This time, any Turkish attempt to deny Russia will result in a quite catastrophic clash. And Russia will certainly come again. So make your decision.

Let me ask you something, would you allow that a tyrant who used poison gas on his own people is in charge over some of your people? The russians intervened in crimea for far less than that.

Of course not, but are you sure that's what's happening here?

Putin knows this and evryone knows Putin will drop Assad sooner or later. We are in the endgame here. Evry site want to achieve the best outcome for itself. I know that russia must keep that Assad thing running but in the end will drop him.

Assad could be dropped or he could not, it's not for Russia to decide, all Russia can do is advise Syria albeit it of course has a great deal of influence.
My view is that after the war Assad himself might choose to step down, this will satisfy all sides and allow everyone to save face; while still keeping the Syrian state apparatus and government elite intact.

Just explain me how you will hold syria alive when evry single government around it break off diplomatic relations, keep supporting anti assad groups?

Well that's their problem, I hope they will reconsider when the Islamist groups that they are providing cover for are destroyed by Russian aviation. They will have no-one else to help, and will hopefully turn to more pragmatic policies and establish peace with Syria.

Israel has already stated that it won't shoot any Russian planes down, in the wake of the incident between Russia and Turkey, even if they do violate its airspace, and that it doesn't view Russia as an enemy, but as a major player in the region.
So with this message, Israel is stating that it's not going to cover for the Syrian rebel groups near its borders when the Russians come to bomb them. It's washing its hands of them.
Putin met with the Jordanian King just a few days ago. They have good relations, and always have very frank talks. I doubt that the Jordanians will do anything against Russian aviation either.

So that just leaves Turkey. If the Turkmen are the issue; then I'm sure an agreement can be reached. Russia has brokered ceasefires before, and if Turkey wants to protect them directly then I think that would be acceptable. But if deposing Assad is the issue, then no, Turkey's operations will have to be closed down.

I´m full supporting crushing ISIS, PKK, Al Nusra and all those monsters. But Assad is a red line. There is no scenario where Assad can be accepted from Turkey, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, USA, Israel. Its plain and simple impossible.

Assad is accepted or not accepted by his own people. If he's accepted, there's little that anyone from the outside can do about it, nor should do about it. If you want, you can cut off diplomatic relations with Syria - that's your right. But supporting rebel groups won't accomplish anything and will just prolong a needless war and strengthen violent Islamism in the region.
But like I said, probably as a face-saving measure for those who seeked to depose him, he will have the wisdom to step down by himself.

Thing is, there are no terrorist activity in turkmen areas. Turkmens don´t bow to Assad and never will. And its clear that this civil war will move on as long those peope are´t free.