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    Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:37 pm

    They don't need to modify them. It's doing the job pretty well for very cheap cheap money and ukraine can't intercept them.

    They have grom-2 and grom-1 also in use, probably with better caracteristics for more important targets.

    But for most of the situation a dumb bomb with a module will do the work, specially if the main targets are trenches.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Wed Mar 27, 2024 10:29 pm

    The Grom is a good weapon system. But it doesn't scale up. I think it has a 250 kg warhead and that's it.
    Production is also still very limited.
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    Post  lyle6 Thu Mar 28, 2024 2:38 am

    lancelot wrote:
    The central command just blissfully ignored these in favor of systems like Gefest which made regular dumb bombs more precise. But the thing is Gefest requires you to fly directly over the target. These systems turn dumb bombs into a standoff weapon. Which is what you need against someone who has proper air defenses.

    And don't tell me they weren't preparing for a possible conflict with Ukraine. The Russian MoD has been conducting a huge military ramp up since at least 2014. Loads and loads of combat units were raised from nothing and drilled and put into service. I am sure the government still hoped for things to be settled peacefully but they were preparing in case they did not.
    Not everything has to be prepared on a silver platter well beforehand.

    Real professionals whip up something 5 star with left over scraps at the last minute.

    Again, you're only upset because the Russians came up with the UMPK under time, under budget and almost on a holler which is something the Americans can never pull off.

    diabetus wrote:Garry they aren't buying tools online, and the MOD isn't providing them, telegram accounts like Fighterbomber were begging their audiences for donations in order to purchase DeWalt and Makita drills and impact drivers for the ground crews.
    What this tells me is that the speed of innovations in Russia is so fast they exceed the capacity of the bureaucracy to react to their needs. Is this even bad lol?

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    Post  diabetus Thu Mar 28, 2024 3:23 am

    lancelot wrote:The Grom is a good weapon system. But it doesn't scale up. I think it has a 250 kg warhead and that's it.
    Production is also still very limited.

    How is it any better than a UPMK equipped FAB?
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    Post  diabetus Thu Mar 28, 2024 3:25 am

    lyle6 wrote:What this tells me is that the speed of innovations in Russia is so fast they exceed the capacity of the bureaucracy to react to their needs. Is this even bad lol?  

    Do I need to explain why the lack of basic power tools is a bad thing?
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    Post  lyle6 Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:07 am

    diabetus wrote:
    Do I need to explain why the lack of basic power tools is a bad thing?
    Tell me something I don't already know. You're acting like supply chain hitches are a new thing when you never failed to complain about them each and every time only to shut up when the Russian bureaucracies fix the issue in like a week.

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    Post  diabetus Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:21 am

    lyle6 wrote:
    Tell me something I don't already know. You're acting like supply chain hitches are a new thing when you never failed to complain about them each and every time only to shut up when the Russian bureaucracies  fix the issue in like a week.

    When you say fix you mean have telegram accounts ask for charity from their subscribers right? It's also not really a speedy innovation, as having some kind of similar kit before the war started would have saved the VKS for sustaining lots of losses, especially early on.
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    Post  lancelot Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:31 am

    diabetus wrote:How is it any better than a UPMK equipped FAB?
    There are a multitude of guidance and range extension options for it. Unlike the UMPK it can be powered.

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    Post  lyle6 Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:51 am

    diabetus wrote:
    When you say fix you mean have telegram accounts ask for charity from their subscribers right? It's also not really a speedy innovation, as having some kind of similar kit before the war started would have saved the VKS for sustaining lots of losses, especially early on.
    I have never heard of a major war that did not require the military to solicit support from the civilian population - is that even supposed to be embarrassing? Because you know what is really embarrassing? Pillaging your own civilian economy to fund trillion dollar wars that went nowhere. In contrast the Russian economy is fucking booming, with surplus all around to spend. The Russian people are living their best lives under sanctions that their chump change literally funds the most cost efficient weapons to destroy all that you have built for trillions of dollars. How's that for a burn? Razz

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    Post  diabetus Thu Mar 28, 2024 7:01 am

    lyle6 wrote:
    I have never heard of a major war that did not require the military to solicit support from the civilian population - is that even supposed to be embarrassing? Because you know what is really embarrassing? Pillaging your own civilian economy to fund trillion dollar wars that went nowhere. In contrast the Russian economy is fucking booming, with surplus all around to spend. The Russian people are living their best lives under sanctions that their chump change literally funds the most cost efficient weapons to destroy all that you have built for trillions of dollars. How's that for a burn? Razz

    It's a stupid attempt at a burn, the bigger burn is Russian aircraft ground crews lacking basic power tools. It wasn't the military soliciting support, it was people on telegram begging for money.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 28, 2024 7:25 am

    There were proposals by the Russian MIC (NPO Basalt) to add glide kits to existing dumb bombs like a decade ago.

    They were not considered necessary and would be just another type of gliding weapon.

    They already have gliding bombs in service and in production, but these glide kits just allow existing dumb bombs to be used in a more cost effective way because the aircraft delivering them will be safer and they will get more hits on target with the guidance systems.

    They essentially increase the price of dumb bombs by improving the safety of their delivery and the precision of their delivery so you wont need to drop so many to hit the target.


    The central command just blissfully ignored these in favor of systems like Gefest which made regular dumb bombs more precise. But the thing is Gefest requires you to fly directly over the target. These systems turn dumb bombs into a standoff weapon. Which is what you need against someone who has proper air defenses.

    The wars they were actually fighting it made and makes rather more sense. The capacity for their older aircraft to deliver dumb bombs and unguided rockets with a level of precision as good as some smart weapons is a useful feature against point targets.

    Against area targets it doesn't make much difference at all.


    And don't tell me they weren't preparing for a possible conflict with Ukraine.

    Of course they were, but plans for fighting Ukraine without HATO support would be over too fast for glide kits to matter, and with HATO support then they probably thought tactical nukes would be more important than trying to eliminate Ukraine demographically as they are at the moment.

    The Russian MoD has been conducting a huge military ramp up since at least 2014. Loads and loads of combat units were raised from nothing and drilled and put into service. I am sure the government still hoped for things to be settled peacefully but they were preparing in case they did not.

    Well that is exactly right so why are you moaning. In comparison the US has been pushing for this conflict also since 2014 and they have done nothing to prepare for a conventional conflict in Europe against Russia.

    They actually thought Leopard IIs and Abrams tanks would walk through Russian lines and the Orcs could take the Crimea at their leisure as easily as Russia took it.

    Because in their warped brains the Crimea will go to Kievs control as willingly as they went to Moscows control... except even Kiev has said once they capture the Crimea their first job would be to remove all the pro Russians and repopulate the place with Ukrainians... which is as close to admitting an intention of genocide as I have ever heard but the western media keeps saying they are the good guys in this conflict.

    Design of a streamlined and modular bomb had a not negligible cost for Americans as the design and production of Paveway first, Jdams in a second time and gliding kits successively but the presence of a common body was indeed a very good thing for them.

    Except they were never cheap, which undermined the entire purpose of making them modular.

    Conversely the FAB families of bombs in the M54 and M62 models are cheap and converting them all to being modular wont make them any cheaper.

    It is the same issue with HIMARS... western fanboys claim it is so much better than anything the Soviets or Russians had yet that is clearly not the case... they are so expensive even the US hasn't got a large number of them and they are treated more like ballistic missile systems with precision targets where one or two rockets get fired at each target. That might be OK in Afghanistan, but against Russian targets, one or two or six rockets are going to get shot down which makes them useless... but somehow Russia has to copy them anyway.

    Since mass production of aviation bombs is underway, not as many as some think.

    Mass production does not mean they are out of stored weapons. They would be stupid to wait till they got there before ramping up production... like the west.

    Remember the US providing Kiev with cluster munitions for artillery shells has done Russia a huge favour as they were likely going to destroy their custer munition bombs too, but now they can use them up on nazis...

    That kit would have been useless as it didn't have satnav guidance, just stabilization so a long range unguided bomb.

    Perhaps why it was not adopted...

    As you can see, it's not difficult or expensive as the US had bombs that were simple to modify in WW2...

    The bomb is not expensive because it is hard to put a huge markup on such a simple thing, but that is what Paveway and JDAM kits are for... to create a bit profit margin on cheap dumb ordinance... the great American tradition.

    The Grom is a good weapon system. But it doesn't scale up. I think it has a 250 kg warhead and that's it.

    Because it is based on the body of the Kh-38, and the 250kg HE warhead with a solid rocket motor to reach 100km to the target at mach 2, but Grom 2 replaces the rocket motor with a further 130kg of HE and obviously a shorter glide range. 380kgs of warhead is pretty good for most targets.

    If you want something heavier they have the UPAB-1500 with a TV seeker and 70km range in a 1.5 ton bomb.

    BTW they have rocket boosted glide bombs with flight ranges of up to 70 odd kms, but also a pulse jet model they are developing with a flight range of 110-120km too.

    How is it any better than a UPMK equipped FAB?

    Dumb bombs with glide kits don't fly 100km at mach 2.

    The GROM and GROM 2 are also based on the Kh-38 body so its guidance can include... but is not limited to a range of guidance options including IIR seeker, TV, laser homing, and radar guided.

    Do I need to explain why the lack of basic power tools is a bad thing?

    UK tank crewman died in Afghanistan because he wasn't supplied with a flak vest. They were short of them and gave higher priority to foot soldiers than to guys in tanks and he was shot and killed because he couldn't buy one for himself because there was no supply at the time.

    When you say fix you mean have telegram accounts ask for charity from their subscribers right? It's also not really a speedy innovation, as having some kind of similar kit before the war started would have saved the VKS for sustaining lots of losses, especially early on.

    When supply chains have problems it is normally quicker to bypass the red tape and the lines for things you need... a good example would be soldiers going to an exercise in Norway going to a local shop and buying their own skis and the right wax to put on them so they actually work rather than waiting 6 months for the amazing HATO military to supply an inferior version of the same.

    Kiwi soldiers are known as magpies... which is interesting because magpies are Aussie birds. Magpies are related to ravens and like shiny metal stuff... Kiwi soldiers are known for hanging around the much better equipped and supplied US forces and borrowing stuff the Americans didn't need. ( I don't mean stealing... they ask for things....).

    Pillaging your own civilian economy to fund trillion dollar wars that went nowhere. In contrast the Russian economy is fucking booming, with surplus all around to spend.

    Made even worse because Merkel and Holland knew they were delaying things and building up Kiev to the point where it could take on Russia to get Crimea back so they knew this was coming for a rather long time and they are still horribly unprepared... it is going to take them 10 years just to replace all the shit they have used up let alone develop new stuff so they have a chance of fighting Russia on something approaching equal terms.

    Even the orcs in Kiev know the game is up but are trying to bleed another 60 billion out of the US before everything goes tits up and they run to the west with pockets full of money and the outlines for a great book about how they took on Putin and won because the Russian economy is bad and the Ukraine is the safest and richest and most powerful western democracy in the world...


    It's a stupid attempt at a burn, the bigger burn is Russian aircraft ground crews lacking basic power tools. It wasn't the military soliciting support, it was people on telegram begging for money.

    It is actually amusing because you are taking that as some sort of a win because Russia has been cut off from machine tools from the world... in the short term that creates problems, but not problems that are unsolvable.

    On the positive side it creates an opportunity which Russian companies are stepping up to fill:

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    diabetus


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    Post  diabetus Fri Mar 29, 2024 2:37 am

    It's not really a win, it's just that you guys can't stand any criticism of anything Russia does, when they've made many mistakes in this war, and continue to do so. It's understandable in a way as it's the first time they've fought a peer adversary since WW2, but many of you have this idea that everything they do is right and constantly work to justify decisions which sometimes turn out poorly.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Mar 29, 2024 9:39 am

    I would say this conflict actually shows when they identify problems and issues they dealt with it sensibly and as quickly as they can.

    Some fixes are quick and cheap and easy like cages over turrets and jamming equipment to jam drones.

    They have not only introduced their own drones but revealed drones they are licence producing from Iran and like other countries too.

    Most of their weapon systems are proving to be very effective and they are testing all sorts of things and getting them into service or fixing them and getting them right.

    They made changes where needed and have kept their own losses relatively low considering they are effectively fighting a HATO supported and trained enemy force.

    In comparison most HATO super weapons have proven to be hollow... Javelin was supposed to stop all Russian armour literally in its tracks... the various air defence systems were supposed to ground Russian air power.

    It didn't happen.

    Western stealth is pathetic.

    They have now started making 300mm glide bombs that they can fit to Smerch rockets to extend their range, and their glide kits make their cheap dumb bombs more powerful and more effective than their much more expensive western equivalents.

    New systems like LMUR and even their attack helicopters have proven how capable they are in a combat environment where Ukrainian helicopters don't last very long at all.

    The Ukrainian military is between a rock and a hard place and are forced to choose between losing men and losing territory... and they seem to be losing both... first losing men and then losing the territory.

    This conflict shows just how powerful the Russian military are... and the west keeps believing its own propaganda, which is good because as long as that continues they will not be a real threat.

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    Post  Hole Fri Mar 29, 2024 10:46 am

    They have now started making 300mm glide bombs 
    Even better. They turn simple FAB-250 bombs into "missiles" for the Tornado-S.

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    Post  mnztr Sun Mar 31, 2024 12:44 am

    I read that the Russian have modified the KH-101 to have a second warhead, and reduced the range as they don't need the full range for this war. Does anyone know if its just extra explosive or can the second warhead be independantly targeted?
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    Post  Isos Sun Mar 31, 2024 12:49 am

    Tornado rockets already have a warhead. What's the point of pitting a fab-250 on it ?

    I doubt kh-101 double warhead can be used seperatly. It's mostly designed to destroy better the power plants IMO they targeted last days. Since ukraine is reachable with a 900km range, the kh-101 doesn't need all the fuel it has there so they can reduce the fuel tank and put another warhead. I guess they will formalize that in new produced missile to switch quickly fuel tank for smaller tank and more warheads.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Mar 31, 2024 10:39 am

    I read that the Russian have modified the KH-101 to have a second warhead, and reduced the range as they don't need the full range for this war. Does anyone know if its just extra explosive or can the second warhead be independantly targeted?

    My understanding is that the cruise missile the Iskander launcher used had reduced flight range and a double warhead because being ground launched its range was limited to 500km by INF treaty so they took most of the fuel out and replaced it with HE to give it more HE power.

    In that model it was just more HE in place of jet fuel so it could only fly 500km and then much bigger boom to do more damage to the targets it hit.

    Trying to hit multiple targets would just mean trying to penetrate the air defences of two targets making it more likely it would be shot down and less likely the second target will be hit.

    For that reason I would say it is to make a bigger explosion on target rather than to hit multiple targets.

    A nuclear version might release a nuclear warhead in flight and fly to a main target hitting two targets but conventional armed models don't really make sense in my opinion.

    Tornado rockets already have a warhead. What's the point of pitting a fab-250 on it ?


    Not just a normal FAB-250, I think these are new bombs of 300mm calibre that will fit onto a Smerch rocket with the warhead removed. These bombs have glide kits that include guidance systems so the Smerch rocket it used to launch the bomb up into the air at high flight speed and then the bomb is released in flight and guides to its target. The ballistic range of a new Smerch rocket is about 150km and the flight range for a glide bomb travelling in excess of mach 2 is probably 50-80km, so mounting this bomb onto a Smerch rocket probably gives it a flight range of 200-240km... but some of these glide bombs have pulse jet engines to further boost range so we really don't know how far it could hit its targets.
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    Post  Hole Sun Mar 31, 2024 12:00 pm

    I think these are new bombs 
    Old bombs. That´s the point. F...ing cheap compared to the standard rocket/missile of the Smerch/Tornado-S.

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    Post  lancelot Sun Mar 31, 2024 6:52 pm

    Hole wrote:Old bombs. That´s the point. F...ing cheap compared to the standard rocket/missile of the Smerch/Tornado-S.
    It's a bit of a joke how the Russians managed to make their own analogue of the GLSDB on the HIMARS before it even went into service with Ukraine properly. The current US MIC is really bad at improvising in the middle of a conflict.

    I don't think they are better than a dedicated rocket design would be though. With more modern propellants and possibly a lighter casing using the same technologies in the latest Tornado-G rockets the Tornado-S standard rockets could have much longer range than they have currently. This contraption only makes the rocket more expensive and failure prone which kind of defeats the purpose. For the US MIC it's a great idea since it is one more way they can sell their platinum plated GLSDBs.

    The only advantage you could consider such systems as having is that since they can glide to the target it is possible to put non direct ballistic fire approaches to the target which would make defending against it more complicated.

    While the people who developed the UMPK deserve kudos for developing it and putting into production and mass use in the middle of conflict this shouldn't have been necessary. And several Su-34, Su-30, Su-35 airframes and pilots were lost unnecessarily because of this lack of awareness. Like I said the situation with the air defenses in Ukraine was perfectly predictable. The General Staff should have taken this into consideration and put something like the UMPK into service before the conflict started not afterwards.

    Another issue is the lack of long reach weapon systems on the attack helicopters and Su-25s which mean they need to attack within range of MANPADS when that wouldn't be necessary. But that is more forgivable. The mass sending of basically all NATO MANPADS into Ukraine is something that wouldn't necessarily be factored in before the conflict started. And the sensor technology in aircraft which were designed a decade ago or even worse in the Cold War era wasn't good enough to properly use such weapons. But this needs to change.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Apr 01, 2024 4:25 am

    While the people who developed the UMPK deserve kudos for developing it and putting into production and mass use in the middle of conflict this shouldn't have been necessary.

    Real conflict against a peer enemy don't happen very often and so the lessons learned and the gaps created often never existed before so claiming there is a problem because they didn't have all the tools they would need ready to go is a bit rude.

    I would argue that the west basing its military largely in its air power is stereotypically colonial of them, and that a collective alliance needs a collective air defence and they haven't even started on that yet... which would leave them as horribly vulnerable as the Soviets were at the start of WWII when their air power got clobbered and didn't recover for quite some time... except HATO can't afford to wait for decent AD to be developed and produced.

    Like I said the situation with the air defenses in Ukraine was perfectly predictable.

    Which is something they couldn't know until they got this experience.

    I could predict that the west needs to spend 20 trillion dollars on air defence systems that actually work but who is going to say yes to spending that sort of money?

    Especially when the fighter jocks will say they creamed the Germans in WWII and won the war and they will do the same to the Ruskies now.

    The General Staff should have taken this into consideration and put something like the UMPK into service before the conflict started not afterwards.

    And such a comment would have had more weight if you did not wait until now to say it... meaning you are no better than you claim they are.


    Another issue is the lack of long reach weapon systems on the attack helicopters and Su-25s which mean they need to attack within range of MANPADS when that wouldn't be necessary.

    Vikhr-M, LMUR, Hermes, and Khrisantema-M all have ranges of 8km or more. All are in production.

    The real problem was inability to detect and identify targets at 10km plus ranges in the first place, which has been dealt with in the Ka-52M and Mi-28NM models.

    It's a bit of a joke how the Russians managed to make their own analogue of the GLSDB on the HIMARS before it even went into service with Ukraine properly. The current US MIC is really bad at improvising in the middle of a conflict.

    What takes years in peace time to develop, in war time can take mere months.

    I don't think they are better than a dedicated rocket design would be though.

    These are glide bombs with pulsejets as propulsion, so the rocket might get it into the air and on its way to the target but it uses its own guidance system and propulsion system to reach rather further and it does so with a 250kg HE bomb, so it is heavier than normal rocket payloads.

    For the Russian Army it is a day night all weather way of delivering heavy bombs to enemy fortresses accurately... what is not to like?

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    Post  GarryB Mon Apr 01, 2024 4:44 am

    It's not really a win, it's just that you guys can't stand any criticism of anything Russia does, when they've made many mistakes in this war, and continue to do so.

    They are doing everything wrong... then how do you explain the current situation on the battlefield...

    The western plan was to seize the rest of Ukraine including the Crimea and cripple the Russian economy by isolating it from the entire world and have the Russian people turf Putin out... maybe even put him on trial for war crimes like they did with the Serbs, and then just loot the country of its resources at "we are stealing from africa" prices.... the usual colonial bit... but all in the name of human rights and democracy.

    The south is watching all of this and they see the hypocrisy of the west, and they remember when they were the target of that western hypocrisy, and they are probably thinking nice things about Russia about now because Russia hasn't lashed out and been brutal to the Ukrainian people like the west would in their shoes... they haven't even lashed out at the west the way the west would have if they were in Russias shoes...

    It is clear they will not lose Crimea and it is also clear the regions who voted to leave the Ukraine will not be going back to Kiev either... the longer this takes the less we will need to think in terms of Ukraine, because I can't see the survivors of this conflict on Ukrainian territory will have a nice view of their powerful amazing western backers when they eventually cut and run and leave you holding the can...

    After the event criticising Russia for things that went wrong is just bullshit, because sometimes anyone gets things wrong. There has to be clear evidence they had reasons to do it differently... and I would say the case against the west is much much stronger than it is against Russia... but before we declare sentencing for this crime against humanity I would say the west has proven how hollow and weak they are, and their actions show the Russians how much they hate them, and their sanctions pushed Russia away... at one point Russia had hundreds of billions of dollars in trade with Europe and it wasn't just energy... and perhaps that was a problem for the US but it wasn't at the time for Russia or the EU.

    It is over now and the Russian economy is humming and it is creating trade ties with countries that don't openly hate them, that want to trade and will trade fairly and both countries will develop and grow and profit from these relations... so Russia wins... the west pushed Russia into the sheep dip and all the barnacles and ticks and worms Russia had from the west bleeding money and resources from the country have been chemically poisoned by the western politicians... soon the Russian sheep will be frolicking in the paddock and having fun with the other sheep knowing they will get fleeced occasionally, but that pays for the things they need... protection from the wolves and lots of green grass.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Mon Apr 01, 2024 5:23 am

    The Russians knew perfectly well how many Soviet air defense systems Ukraine had. And they had encountered Ukrainian upgraded Buks and Osas in Georgia in 2008. They were a problem back then. Several aircraft Su-25 were shot down. They even shot down a Tu-22M3. And Georgia didn't have more advanced systems like the S-300PS.
    It was perfectly well known that Ukraine had a hostile regime in place at least since 2014. So this was a major Russia planning failure for sure.
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    Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF - Page 9 Empty Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  xeno Thu Apr 04, 2024 4:45 am

    Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF - Page 9 17117210
    Summary...

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    The-thing-next-door
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    Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF - Page 9 Empty Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  The-thing-next-door Thu Apr 04, 2024 4:51 pm

    xeno wrote:Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF - Page 9 17117210
    Summary...

    90km seems a little short.
    thegopnik
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    Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF - Page 9 Empty Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  thegopnik Thu Apr 04, 2024 7:22 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    xeno wrote:Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF - Page 9 17117210
    Summary...

    90km seems a little short.

    and they can get the same range with the normal 300mm rocket with 200kg warhead instead of a 100kg warhead.

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