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    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    RTN
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    Post  RTN Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:40 am

    GarryB wrote:Well the idea is bloody stupid... it would make more sense to adapt your strategic bombers into strategic cruise missile carriers... like the Soviets did in the 1980s, and keep your transport planes for transporting stuff which is what they were designed for.
    Converting bomber strategic bombers into strategic cruise missile carriers will not increase the number of missiles that the bomber can carry.

    The Soviets found that out too.

    GarryB wrote: C-17... an enormously expensive transport plane and use it to carry stand off missiles their B-52s could already carry much more efficiently and cheaply to make it all nice and expensive while pretending to save money.
    B-52 will deliver a PGM like JASSM-ER from stand off range, C-17 will do the same.

    What is the availability rate of a Tu-160 after just one mission? It takes hours to refill a TU-160 with fuel and weapons, check for air worthiness before it can be sent back to the theatre again. Practically they can fly at best one mission a day.

    OTOH, if there are transport aircraft available that can carry palletized munition like the JASSM they can be airborne immediately and deliver the munition into the theatre from stand off range.

    So instead of waiting for 4-5 TU 160s to get airborne after 24 hours, in the interim transport aircraft can easily play the role of a strategic cruise missile carrier.

    GarryB wrote:a C-17 doesn't have the electronic self defence avionics that a B-52 does...
    EW suite of the C-17 can be upgraded, always.
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    Post  lyle6 Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:56 am

    Unless you're bombing bumfuckistan of the week, this C-130 jizm shit won't fly at all. Two things you need to break through substantial enemy air defences: speed and or stealth, and transport aircraft like the C-17 and C-130 are neither of those. Since they are large and obnoxious, these transport planes would be detected at almost the edge of sensor range, giving more than ample time to prepare a suitable intercept package. And since they are slow, the intercepting aircraft would beat them to the punch at the release sites, and even with escorts you do not want these things to get anywhere near BVR range. Chuck in some stealth interceptors and suddenly preventing your transports from getting sniped just got exponentially harder.

    I'm sure there are other ways of skinning the IADS cat that doesn't involve suicide by IADS, but this ain't it, chief.

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    Arrow


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    Post  Arrow Mon May 23, 2022 11:02 pm

    Ups Laughing

    https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/31085-usaf-b-21-raider-stealth-bomber-first-flight-delayed

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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:30 pm

    First B-21 stealth bomber to be rolled out on dec 2.

    https://www.defensenews.com/industry/techwatch/2022/11/28/northrops-b-21-is-almost-here-whats-next-for-the-stealthy-bomber/
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    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:42 am

    First picture already revealed...

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 3 Index10

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    Post  kvs Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:56 am

    Does not look like the render on the previous page and more like the B-2.

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    George1
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    Post  George1 Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:36 pm

    Yes, its like the B-2
    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:15 am



    and still no ass shots of the aircraft yet.
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    Post  Belisarius Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:27 am

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 3 Img_2226
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    Post  Krepost Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:02 am

    Billions and Billions spent to downsize the B2.

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    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:04 am

    Impressive.
    With this most recent achievement fate has in a single stroke, marked the arising of the West and spelled a new era of democratic prosperity and full spectrum dominance for the American eagle, which promises to firmly stand in sharp contrast to the historically bloody ascent of autocratic powers and the cruel subjugation it brought to the humbler nations of the world. With the blessings of American quantum imaging, tri-stream adaptive engines and joint all-domain command-control will be the instruments with which Americans affirm their noble stewardship of 21st century global politics and offers the non-western world a different option; an humanist alternative to the depredations of oriental leadership and the opportunity for a equitable and dignified American hegemony.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:09 am

    So here is the real B-21, nothing like going back to basics to save money and get good old quality US engineering back into play...

    B-21... in all her glory...:

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    Arrow


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    Post  Arrow Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:31 am

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 3 Fj-CR5z-IWIAAN-AY

    Billions and Billions spent to downsize the B2. wrote:

    Yes, but Russia and China are also working on a flying wing. PAK DA and H-20. So they also invest in this technology.
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    Post  Dr.Snufflebug Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:42 am

    Barring any super revolutionary leap in stealth technology that I am unaware of, I fail to see the point of these things.

    B-1 and B-52 does everything the U.S. could ever wish for in a bomber, whether it's about deploying stand-off weapons or dropping a lot of dumb ordnance. Drones do close-up pinpoint work, and risk no pilots.

    The B-2 is likewise capable, but few in numbers and hideously expensive to operate. All it does is the same thing as the aforementioned platforms anyway.

    Why make a new, smaller B-2? Unless, again, stealth technology has made a quantum leap in some fashion and you can actually evade contemporary AD again.


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    Post  Arrow Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:10 am

    Why is Russia developing a stealth flying wing when it has resumed production of a very good and unrivaled Tu-160M2 bomber? B-21 is smaller than B2, probably has a reduced RCS compared to B2, although it is certainly not a revolution. Despite everything, the competition is also working on similar solutions when it comes to strategic bombers.


    Last edited by Arrow on Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  TMA1 Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:14 am

    Uhh thegopnik where did you get that disturbing bit of writing? Sounds stereotypically devilish in a luciferian sense.

    Also is it true about the three stream engine? Why would a subsonic aircraft need that kind of airflow variability?

    Edit: added an extra sentence.
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    Post  Isos Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:19 am

    Becaue a b52 is an easy target for a mig-31 armed with r-37M missiles.

    Tu-95 is also an easy target for f-22 armed with amraam and future long range missiles in development.

    Stealth reduces the distance at which you can be detected and engaged.

    Tu-95 and b52 aren't safe even with 2000km range stand off weapons. Oth radar + awacs + Mig 31 range + r37 range make their interception possible.

    They will be good if they get missiles like kinzhal or kalibr M.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:47 am

    A flying wing design in and of itself is a good idea... very good aerodynamically and very efficient in terms of drag so for a given engine thrust it can stay in the air longer and therefore fly further.

    Not such a good idea if you want to fly directly over the targets you are attacking unless the opponent is particularly weak and undefended, but as a stand off cruise missile carrier the flying wing stealth design has a number of  advantages.

    If you want to fly over your targets then your stealth likely wont hide you which means you need to fly low which exposes you to standard ground fire and extra stresses of flying through thicker wetter air.

    First of all if your weapons are 5,000km range Kh-102 nuclear armed missiles then the stealth and efficient airframe shape means you can fly all the way to your launch points at medium to high altitude for low drag, low stress on the airframe, and highest subsonic speed with minimum thrust requirement.

    The long range of your standoff missiles means the enemy likely wont even know you were there and the efficient shape means you are actually rather stealthy without any expensive technology... the flying wing shape is naturally stealthy so some RAM and careful design and it should be rather good... the larger the pieces you make the plane out of the fewer the joints which further improves stealthiness and strength allowing more fuel and weapons payload.

    Next gen standoff weapons will likely be hypersonic and of strategic flight range in themselves... the Russians are working on Mach 12, 12,000km range missiles that are 11m long that should fit into the Tu-160 and PAK DA easily enough (by design of course).

    In terms of operational costs a flying wing should be the simplest and cheapest plane, it is subsonic and with no swing wing complication should be as cheap to run as a Bear which is essentially also a flying wing... but with a fuselage attached to carry fuel and people and weapons...

    If you have a look at the Tu-160 it is mostly a flying wing too really... with a nose and a tail sticking out to increase RCS from the sides...

    A stealthy flying wing makes sense, as long as it uses standoff weapons on strategic missions and has protection on theatre missions (self defence AAMs have already been confirmed for it).


    Tu-95 and b52 aren't safe even with 2000km range stand off weapons. Oth radar + awacs + Mig 31 range + r37 range make their interception possible.

    The critical factor is that the B-52 and Tu95 are subsonic and so by the time they get to their launch positions for their long range cruise missiles each sides ICBMs and SLBMs have already ravaged both defending countries... the idea that the air defences of both countries will be fully intact and waiting is a bit of a stretch.

    Both aircraft also carry what are called short range attack missiles... the Soviet missile was the Kh-15 which is a 300-400km range rocket powered missile that moves at mach 5 and was designed to explode at a coordinate... either on the ground or in the air. The idea is that as you approach your launch position, if you detect enemy radar in the air or on the ground or at sea the very large radars of the bombers are used to scan the airspace and sea or ground surface for SAMs or fighter interceptors and a Kh-15 is launched set to detonate amongst the group of interceptors or interceptor, or the ship or ground base SAM site to obliterate it in a rather powerful nuclear blast.

    There was a lot of speculation about a mach 5 conventionally armed Kh-15 for use against SAM sites and major radar stations and also ships, but that mach 5 missile turned out to be the Kh-32 upgrade of the Kh-22M... the Kh-15s were withdrawn because they only ever had a nuke payload and as such could not be justified.

    The talk about very long range Air to Air missiles being useful but very inefficient and designing a long range missile like an R-37M to have multiple small independent missiles that could be released as they approached their targets would likely be used by bombers too where enemy interceptors and any missiles they might have launched could be engaged from large distances... so you launch an R-37M at 400km range and the missile scans for targets on its way to the enemy fighter or group of fighter or enemy bomber... any small targets detected on the way like already launched missiles (AAM or cruise) releases a separate interceptor missile from the R-37M to engage it. If it doesn't meet anything on the way when it gets to the target area with enemy interceptors or bombers each intercepting munition could target a separate aircraft so instead of launching 6 R37Ms to engage 6 targets, you might launch one that delivers 6 interceptors that can then spread out and each take on its own target... rather more efficient.

    Keeping in mind that the R-37M uses a lofted trajectory for long range engagements so it would have climbed to rather high altitude and so those 6 separate interceptors would be released at high altitude and come screaming down on their targets at rather high speed (mach 4-5 plus) and also as they dive on their targets they would be scanning for them with IIR and ARH seekers from the top down making even quite stealthy targets easier to detect. The added bonus is when interceptors are going out to get some bombers those pilots are not going to be looking up much, so intercepting missiles screaming down at near hypersonic speeds will be a surprise...

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    Post  Belisarius Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:27 pm

    Can't wait for western fanboys to claim the B-21 has 0.00001m2 of RCS Laughing Laughing

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    Post  Hole Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:21 pm

    Americans claim it can´t be seen by any AD system in the world.  Laughing

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    Post  ALAMO Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:29 pm

    You canto see something non existing 🤣 This thing is rolled out only to seal the wounded ego I guess. At the moment, IT equals Su-75. Something that might be like ...

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    Post  GarryB Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:10 am

    The amusing thing is that by the time it gets into full production and it turns out to be enormously expensive to buy and to operate the Russians will have likely gotten photonic radar working and on aircraft, but even if they haven't the fact that the B-2 converted to low altitude penetration flight profiles shows how stealthy it was...

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    Post  Podlodka77 Mon Dec 05, 2022 5:23 pm

    Video from BB

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    Post  walle83 Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:42 pm

    Compare the B-2 and the B-21

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 3 Compar10
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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:19 pm

    On the B-2 the engine nacelles stick up and the cabin looks bigger.

    The B-21 looks like it is optimized the fly low, while the B-2 looks optimized for high altitude flight.

    Scary for the US military.


    Flying low reduces speed and range.

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