Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+17
Arrow
Finty
Hole
LMFS
kvs
magnumcromagnon
ahmedfire
JohninMK
Zivo
Werewolf
OminousSpudd
Austin
GarryB
sepheronx
zenmonk
max steel
George1
21 posters

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 9366
    Points : 9473
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty B-21 Raider stealth bomber

    Post  JohninMK Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:01 pm

    This aircraft will be important.

    Details about the U.S. Air Force's new, secret B-21 Raider stealth bomber have so far been limited, but some have emerged since the service announced that it had picked Northrop Grumman to build it 2015. However, since then, there has only been a single piece of official concept art of the aircraft – that is until now.


    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Https%3A%2F%2Fapi.thedrive.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F01%2Fb-21-top.jpg%3Fquality%3D85?w=1440&auto=compress%2Cformat&ixlib=js-1.4

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/32044/heres-our-analysis-of-the-air-forces-new-b-21-stealth-bomber-renderings

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/14919/the-b-21s-three-decade-old-shape-hints-at-new-high-altitude-capabilities


    Steve Trimble
    @TheDEWLine
    ·
    25m
    B-21 procurement math: USAF has $22.6 billion in FY21-25 spending plan for B-21. We know $12.3B is programmed for RDT&E. So that leaves $10.3B for procurement. Last year, USAF said FY20-24 plan had $5.9B for B-21 procurement. Result: FY21-25 plan adds $4.4B for B-21 procurement.
    ahmedfire
    ahmedfire

    Posts : 1654
    Points : 1830
    Join date : 2010-11-11
    Location : The Land Of Pharaohs

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  ahmedfire Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:24 pm

    I remebered the german Horten Ho 229

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Rc7u5p10
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 7324
    Points : 7473
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:22 pm

    JohninMK wrote:This aircraft will be important.

    Details about the U.S. Air Force's new, secret B-21 Raider stealth bomber have so far been limited, but some have emerged since the service announced that it had picked Northrop Grumman to build it 2015. However, since then, there has only been a single piece of official concept art of the aircraft – that is until now.


    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Https%3A%2F%2Fapi.thedrive.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F01%2Fb-21-top.jpg%3Fquality%3D85?w=1440&auto=compress%2Cformat&ixlib=js-1.4

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/32044/heres-our-analysis-of-the-air-forces-new-b-21-stealth-bomber-renderings

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/14919/the-b-21s-three-decade-old-shape-hints-at-new-high-altitude-capabilities


    Steve Trimble
    @TheDEWLine
    ·
    25m
    B-21 procurement math: USAF has $22.6 billion in FY21-25 spending plan for B-21. We know $12.3B is programmed for RDT&E. So that leaves $10.3B for procurement. Last year, USAF said FY20-24 plan had $5.9B for B-21 procurement. Result: FY21-25 plan adds $4.4B for B-21 procurement.

    I wonder if we have any concept art of it's climate controlled hangars where it'll spend 40 hours in maintenance for every hour of flight time? Also it's funny you posted The Drive, one of the most infamous publications for Su-57 slander. Recently there's been not so flattering images floating on the internet of the F-22 with ram coatings resembling shattered glass and ruined Greco-Roman mosaic bath tiles....but surely in that state it's still more stealthy than the the Su-57. Wink
    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 10854
    Points : 10999
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  kvs Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:22 pm

    Trash talkers and those that denigrate are themselves inferior. Back during WWII Russian children were manning metal lathe machines
    and similar making munitions and aircraft parts for the war effort. In the Reich children were outfitted with machine guns. Tell
    me which takes more IQ to use.

    The flying wing is over-rated "stealth". It is OK from side angles but sucks from the top and the bottom regardless of any RAM coating.

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 30961
    Points : 31487
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  GarryB Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:13 am

    Imagine the outcry in the west if the PAK DA looked like the Tu-160... I am wondering why they bother to include the 1 at the end... this is just a B-2 isn't it?

    For the US stealth is critical because they want a first strike system to cut the heads off the third world countries they invade when they can't regime change.

    For Russia their flying wing PAK DA just needs to be relatively stealthy from distance... when releasing 5,000km or 10,000km range cruise missiles at US targets from 1,000km off the coast its lower stealth requirements will be good enough to keep them safe but most importantly will be cheap enough so they can make enough of them to make an actual difference...
    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 9366
    Points : 9473
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  JohninMK Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:01 am

    Steve Trimble
    @TheDEWLine
    ·
    Mar 27
    Two new details about the B-21:

    1) "The B-21 engine noise is expected to be quieter
    than the B-1B and about the same or quieter than
    the B-2."

    2) "The B-21 is not expected to use low altitude
    training routes."

    https://b21eis.com/B-21%20EIS_Inf
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 30961
    Points : 31487
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  GarryB Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:40 am

    1) "The B-21 engine noise is expected to be quieter
    than the B-1B and about the same or quieter than
    the B-2."

    2) "The B-21 is not expected to use low altitude
    training routes."

    So many un-necessary words in point number one... what it should be abbreviated to is:

    1) The B-21 is expected to be the same (as) the B-2.

    The really amusing thing is that they admit low altitude operations is hard on aircraft and no longer offer any ability to hide from Russian air defences...

    Rather expect the emphasis to shift from sneaking under the radar to standoff weapons firing from a distance.... a bit like Israeli F-35s are in Syria...

    Of course it means the new bomber will need to be able to carry a real shit-ton of munitions to penetrate defences... or maybe their space forces will be getting a hypersonic atmosphere skipping bomber... 10 trillion dollars and they will make it happen...
    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 9366
    Points : 9473
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  JohninMK Sun Sep 27, 2020 2:07 pm

    Lower power engines for higher flight?

    Steve Trimble
    @TheDEWLine
    · 20h
    America: Home of a mostly classified stealth bomber program.

    Also America: Home of four scheduled public hearings to be broadcast live on the Internet in Oct to discuss environmental impact of that mostly classified stealth bomber program.


    https://ellsworth.af.mil/Press-Releases


    We still don't know what P&W engine powers the B-21, but now we know its noise contours for takeoff and landing.

    And now we also know the B-21 is "projected to use higher airbands" than normally used for commercial air traffic, so above 41,000ft or so.


    https://b21eis.com/B21%20Public%2

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Ei20fs6WkAQ5yUK?format=jpg&name=small


    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Ei20fs7XgAMV2vK?format=jpg&name=360x360

    https://twitter.com/TheDEWLine/status/1309902390418722817


    An old but still interesting article on the B-21

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/14919/the-b-21s-three-decade-old-shape-hints-at-new-high-altitude-capabilities

    Finty likes this post

    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 3917
    Points : 3919
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  LMFS Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:13 am

    https://www.airforcemag.com/b-21-bomber-shelter-may-reveal-size-of-secret-jet/

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 EvoD09xXMAEQ5uN?format=jpg&name=900x900

    Finty likes this post

    George1
    George1

    Posts : 16730
    Points : 17237
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  George1 Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:10 pm

    US Air Force candidate supports procurement of 145 B-21 Raider strategic bombers
    27 May 2021

    In the United States, they are making proposals and voicing their intentions for a new stage in the renewal of the country's air force. Air Force candidate Frank Kendall is pushing for the acquisition of a large number of B-21 Raider bombers. These are American promising strategic bombers with stealth function and the ability to use missiles and bombs with both nuclear and conventional warheads.

    According to Frank Kendall, he is in favor of purchasing 145 of these strategic bombers for the US Air Force. This is an unprecedented number of strike combat aircraft of this type for the modern Air Force.

    It was noted that this is several times (approximately 7 times) more than the quantitative composition of the B-2 Spirit bombers. According to official figures, the US Air Force is armed with 21 Spirit.

    Frank Kendall:

    The purchase of 145 B-21 bombers will renew the fleet of our strategic aviation and gradually replace the B-1B bombers.
    It is worth noting that for the first time, the words about the possible acquisition of 145 B-21s for the US Air Force were heard at the hearings in Congress last (2020) year. Then they were spoken by the chief of staff of the US Air Force, David Goldfein.

    Kendall called 145 strategic bombers "a reasonable number", noting that "this number corresponds to the ability to respond to various challenges."

    The program for the development and creation of B-21 Raider bombers has already cost the United States about $ 55 billion. And if initially the cost of one such aircraft was estimated at $ 500-600 million, then today in the United States they call other figures: at least $ 750 million for one B-21. Thus, the purchase of 145 of these aircraft for the US Treasury will cost at least a hundred billion.

    https://en.topwar.ru/183405-kandidat-na-post-ministra-vvs-ssha-podderzhal-ideju-o-zakupke-145-strategicheskih-bombardirovschikov-b-21-raider.html
    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 9366
    Points : 9473
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  JohninMK Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:16 pm


    Rachel S. Cohen
    @rachelkaras
    ·
    21h
    Attention bomber design nerds: The @usairforce gave you a new rendering of the @northropgrumman B-21. Says it's $639 million per plane. https://af.mil/About-Us/Fact-

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 E5okwYzXwA05S_i?format=jpg&name=small

    George1 and Finty like this post

    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 4656
    Points : 4644
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 45
    Location : Merkelland

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  Hole Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:45 pm

    Then it will be closer to 1,2 Bill. $

    Shouldn´t it be called B-21 Twix? Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
    Finty
    Finty

    Posts : 361
    Points : 367
    Join date : 2021-02-10
    Location : Great Britain

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  Finty Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:48 pm

    I know looks aren't everything but having seen that, I definitely prefer the B-2, especially round the cockpit (obviously it's not the real thing but it'll do) and the fact the B2 represented something new and striking whereas this owes its looks to its predecessor.

    More here:
    https://defence-blog.com/what-will-the-u-s-air-force-bomber-of-the-future-look-like/


    What will the U.S. Air Force bomber of the future look like?


    The new stealth U.S. Air Force B-21 bomber, also known as Raider, has taken yet another key technological step toward being ready for war.

    Naturally, details regarding its specific developmental nuances are not available, as it is a classified Air Force program. However, the service released a new artistic rendering of the B-21 Raider bomber with some new visual improvements.

    The latest Raider artist rendering graphic does not show any significant changes to the aircraft’s general planform from the one seen in the early official rendering, but new images show a previously unseen design of the cockpit windscreen.

    According to a press release issued Tuesday by the Secretary of the Air Force, the new rendering highlights the future stealth bomber with Edwards Air Force Base, California, as the backdrop. The 420th Flight Test Squadron based at Edwards AFB will plan, test, analyze and report on all flight and ground testing of the B-21 Raider.

    The B-21 program continues to execute the Engineering and Manufacturing Development phase and is focused on scaling the manufacturing infrastructure and capacity across the industrial supply base to prepare for low rate initial production. A critical design review conducted in 2018 concluded the aircraft has a mature and stable design.

    Designed to perform long range conventional and nuclear missions and to operate in tomorrow’s high end threat environment, the B-21 will be a visible and flexible component of the nuclear triad.

    “Nuclear modernization is a top priority for the Department of Defense and the Air Force, and B-21 is key to that plan,” said Randall Walden, Air Force Rapid Capabilities Office director. “The built-in feature of open systems architecture on the B-21 makes the bomber effective as the threat environment evolves. This aircraft design approach sets the nation on the right path to ensuring America’s enduring airpower capability.”

    The Air Force plans to incrementally replace the B-1 Lancer and the B-2 Spirit bombers to form a two-bomber fleet of B-21s and modified B-52s. The B-21 program is on track to deliver B-21s to the first operational base, Ellsworth AFB, South Dakota, in the mid-2020s.

    avatar
    Arrow

    Posts : 1006
    Points : 1004
    Join date : 2012-02-12

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  Arrow Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:49 pm

    Five B-21s are in the final stage of production. Shocked

    Finty likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 30961
    Points : 31487
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  GarryB Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:53 am

    Five prototypes... it will be a while before serial production starts...

    The easiest way to make them cheaper is accept they wont be stealthy against Russia or China but will work against most other countries...

    So bombs for other countries and stand off long range missiles for Russia and China.

    But are they that sensible/practical?
    RTN
    RTN

    Posts : 489
    Points : 466
    Join date : 2014-03-24
    Location : Fairfield, CT

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  RTN Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:46 am

    GarryB wrote:Five prototypes... it will be a while before serial production starts...

    The easiest way to make them cheaper is accept they wont be stealthy against Russia or China but will work against most other countries...

    So bombs for other countries and stand off long range missiles for Russia and China.

    But are they that sensible/practical?
    Why would you think that the U.S is neither sensible nor practical? We do not even need to use B-21 to hit difficult targets.

    JASSM-ER palletized munitions delivered by C-17s and C-130s will be used by the US Air Force to strike hard to hit targets

    JohninMK and Finty like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 30961
    Points : 31487
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  GarryB Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:13 am

    Why would you think that the U.S is neither sensible nor practical?

    Lots of things really...  the fact that the US military planners were happy for 13 American soldiers to die and who knows how many others they put at risk to make Biden look bad in the hope he would reverse his decision and stay in Afghanistan... everything about the F-35 and F-22 and F-117 and B-1B and B-2...

    Is that enough or do you need more?

    We do not even need to use B-21 to hit difficult targets.

    So your future super expensive strategic bombers wont be fit for purpose... is that what you are saying?

    JASSM-ER palletized munitions delivered by C-17s and C-130s will be used by the US Air Force to strike hard to hit targets

    Hahahahaha... so while your strategic bomber aircraft are sitting in their hangars like pussies, you are going to stop all army operations and withdraw their transport planes so they can carry the ordinance your bombers should have been carrying... right... because transport planes always survive better in difficult air defence situations...

    But tell me, when all your transport planes have been shot down how are your strategic bombers going to cope with the problems of transporting troops and equipment around the place?

    The real amusing part is that all the corruption involved in the production of the C-17 that led to the same model being used for the F-35 that blew out its costs and led to problems being glossed over rather than solved, now obviously means they have too many C-17s and they clearly want to use them as cannon fodder in combat...

    BTW super spoiler alert.... my FSB spy links and direct phone line to Putin gave me access to an image of their next next generation strategic aircraft... be careful who you let see this image because it is still super secret and you might be arrested in the US for being a foreign agent for just looking at this image...

    Keep secret:
    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 B52h10

    lyle6 likes this post

    RTN
    RTN

    Posts : 489
    Points : 466
    Join date : 2014-03-24
    Location : Fairfield, CT

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  RTN Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:05 am

    GarryB wrote:Hahahahaha... so while your strategic bomber aircraft are sitting in their hangars like pussies, you are going to stop all army operations and withdraw their transport planes so they can carry the ordinance your bombers should have been carrying... right... because transport planes always survive better in difficult air defence situations...
    You don't get a simple point do you. The idea here is to increase the fleet of strategic bombers not by building more B-52, B-1, B-2 but by using existing transport aircraft as strategic bombers that can deliver long range strike weapons like JASSEM-ER. The goal is to reconfigure Air Force airlift assets, which are normally employed for missions such as the transportation of personnel and equipment, so they can cheaply launch a mass of standoff weapons without having to move into contested airspace.

    This will save taxpayers billions in platform modification costs and also provides a new capability to get a large number of airborne [strike] assets into the theater.

    Re your point about getting shot down, which aircraft is immune to that? A Tu-160, Tu-95, Tu-22 won't last long over U.S, NATO airspace either.

    Finty likes this post

    Finty
    Finty

    Posts : 361
    Points : 367
    Join date : 2021-02-10
    Location : Great Britain

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  Finty Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Why would you think that the U.S is neither sensible nor practical?

    Lots of things really...  the fact that the US military planners were happy for 13 American soldiers to die and who knows how many others they put at risk to make Biden look bad in the hope he would reverse his decision and stay in Afghanistan... everything about the F-35 and F-22 and F-117 and B-1B and B-2...

    Is that enough or do you need more?

    We do not even need to use B-21 to hit difficult targets.

    So your future super expensive strategic bombers wont be fit for purpose... is that what you are saying?

    JASSM-ER palletized munitions delivered by C-17s and C-130s will be used by the US Air Force to strike hard to hit targets

    Hahahahaha... so while your strategic bomber aircraft are sitting in their hangars like pussies, you are going to stop all army operations and withdraw their transport planes so they can carry the ordinance your bombers should have been carrying... right... because transport planes always survive better in difficult air defence situations...


    Where on earth did you get the impression that they'll keep the bombers in their hangars and that they won't be fit for purpose?

    Also I partly disagree on your point about the Raptor and Spirit, like it or not they are still capable aircraft and I imagine if push came to shove, the raptors would swat plenty of Sukhois... if they're not sat on the hardstanding being fixed. American planners haven't been great, it is fair to say they didn't acquire enough B2s and F22s.

    Sujoy and RTN like this post

    marcellogo
    marcellogo

    Posts : 473
    Points : 479
    Join date : 2012-08-02
    Age : 52
    Location : Italy

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  marcellogo Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:02 pm

    As usual such male reproductive organ measurement contest end up in a great mess of loosely and un-related statements throw one another.

    So something like this:
    why would you think that the U.S is neither sensible nor practical? We do not even need to use B-21 to hit difficult targets.

    JASSM-ER palletized munitions delivered by C-17s and C-130s will be used by the US Air Force to strike hard to hit targets

    eventually refers to a way to deliver TACTICAL stand-off weapons.

    Nothing to do with the role of STRATEGIC bomber the B-21 will have.

    Needless to say also Russia is doing the same. With Il-76.

    So also the smearing of it:
    hahahahaha... so while your strategic bomber aircraft are sitting in their hangars like pussies, you are going to stop all army operations and withdraw their transport planes so they can carry the ordinance your bombers should have been carrying... right... because transport planes always survive better in difficult air defence situations...

    But tell me, when all your transport planes have been shot down how are your strategic bombers going to cope with the problems of transporting troops and equipment around the place?


    is out of place. It's a form of parallel development of basically the same thing with same function. And same limited role.

    This one is if possible even more absurd:
    Re your point about getting shot down, which aircraft is immune to that? A Tu-160, Tu-95, Tu-22 won't last long over U.S, NATO airspace either.

    Why the hell should they enter in it? Fact is that are decades that Tu-95 and Tu-160 have not any role in a real bombing nor even the provision to eventually perform it.
    Only heavy plane in RuAF inventory to have such a role is the theatre bomber Tu-22, the other ones being from their very beginning conceived exclusively as stand off weapon carriers exactly as the B-52H is.
    Naturally also the Backfire could carry stand off and long range antiship missiles, so even it could perform same role than the other two when facing NATO.
    A.t.c. the only one legacy bomber SAC have decided to keep is the +50 year old Buffs, while the other two would be written off even before enough B-21 would ever being built totake their place.

    B-21 and PAK-DA are however very similar: so smearing one and promoting other would be only a sign of chauvinism at this point of their parallel development.

    Finty likes this post

    RTN
    RTN

    Posts : 489
    Points : 466
    Join date : 2014-03-24
    Location : Fairfield, CT

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  RTN Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:00 pm

    marcellogo wrote:Needless to say also Russia is doing the same. With Il-76.
    In drawing boards.

    Russia doesn't have an analogue to the JASSM-ER.

    Finty likes this post

    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 8030
    Points : 8014
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  Isos Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:26 pm

    RTN wrote:
    marcellogo wrote:Needless to say also Russia is doing the same. With Il-76.
    In drawing boards.

    Russia doesn't have an analogue to the JASSM-ER.

    Air launched kalibr with 2500km range :

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 3m14ae10

    For shorter range they have kh-59Mk2 with >500km range:

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Kh-59m10

    And they can have cheaper if they want without the need for a 2 billion dollars bomber. I guess for the price of 20 b-2 they can get 2000 of such trucks with thousands of missiles:

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 14563310
    marcellogo
    marcellogo

    Posts : 473
    Points : 479
    Join date : 2012-08-02
    Age : 52
    Location : Italy

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  marcellogo Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:43 pm

    RTN wrote:
    marcellogo wrote:Needless to say also Russia is doing the same. With Il-76.
    In drawing boards.

    Russia doesn't have an analogue to the JASSM-ER.

    Ah,ah,ah,ah,ah,ah,ah,ah,ah, lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!
    Man, even at chauvinism, idiotism and ridicole there is a limit, you have trepassed all three in one statement!

    But for what about the credulity you have trespassed every limit.

    Jassm-ER has nothing exceptional, ever heard about Storm Shadow, Kept 350, Kalibr , Kh-55 all of them with same or better performances and payload and even better radius.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 30961
    Points : 31487
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  GarryB Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:55 am

    You don't get a simple point do you.

    Your comment was ambigious.

    You said that for difficult targets the US military would not use their brand new super stealthy high tech currently vapourware B-21... that instead they would do what the Russians have been doing for decades... using standoff missiles instead of dumb gravity bombs.

    So if they are not using their strategic bombers in a war against Russia or even China and that instead they will be using transport planes with the standoff weapons the Russians have been using for the last 40+ years then their strategic bombers are only useful against third world countries if they cannot be risked against an enemy air defence network.

    The idea here is to increase the fleet of strategic bombers not by building more B-52, B-1, B-2 but by using existing transport aircraft as strategic bombers that can deliver long range strike weapons like JASSEM-ER.

    Well the idea is bloody stupid... it would make more sense to adapt your strategic bombers into strategic cruise missile carriers... like the Soviets did in the 1980s, and keep your transport planes for transporting stuff which is what they were designed for.

    Look at how pathetic the AC-130s are in the face of even just MANPADS... ironically using standoff expensive weapons on a transport plane is such an American idea.... many airforces have loaded dumb bombs on transport planes and flown over enemy positions above the height of MANPADS and just dropped bombs... it is cheap and simple. Dropping guided bombs or using some bombing avionics system to get it accurate so you can use dumb bombs with good enough accuracy to get the job done is something the Russians are doing, but what the Americans want to do is take a C-17... an enormously expensive transport plane and use it to carry stand off missiles their B-52s could already carry much more efficiently and cheaply to make it all nice and expensive while pretending to save money.

    If the B-52s were expensive they would be gone.

    The goal is to reconfigure Air Force airlift assets, which are normally employed for missions such as the transportation of personnel and equipment, so they can cheaply launch a mass of standoff weapons without having to move into contested airspace.

    But those standoff weapons can't even make it to Syrian targets let alone Chinese or Russian targets and would present very juicy targets for MiG-31s... a C-17 doesn't have the electronic self defence avionics that a B-52 does...

    This is just the case of Boeing trying to screw the US tax payer with planes they already bought too many of because the production model was a con.

    But it worked so well they repeated it for the F-35... they will soon have 1,000 F-35s that still don't work properly...

    This will save taxpayers billions in platform modification costs and also provides a new capability to get a large number of airborne [strike] assets into the theater.

    No, it shows how backward the USAF is wanting a nuclear bomber instead of a standoff cruise missile carrying strategic aircraft.

    Re your point about getting shot down, which aircraft is immune to that? A Tu-160, Tu-95, Tu-22 won't last long over U.S, NATO airspace either.

    No aircraft is immune to that, but the B-2 and B-21 are first strike stealth weapons so they have to penetrate airspace with active air defence systems.

    The new Russian air defence systems are linked to an IADS but can just as easily operate on their own and are fully mobile so even after SLBMs and ICBMs have landed many will still be fully operational and waiting...

    And that is also the point... Tu-160s and Tu-95s carry 5,000km range stand off nuclear armed cruise missiles and they are working on a scramjet powered 11 metre long hypersonic missile with a 12,000km range called Gzur II, so the requirement to be stealthy for these aircraft is not that high... especially as they are not first strike aircraft that will likely arrive several hours after their ICBMs and SLBMs and even IRBMs from some locations have done their damage.


    Where on earth did you get the impression that they'll keep the bombers in their hangars and that they won't be fit for purpose?

    RTN basically said that when it is too dangerous to use their strategic bombers they will use transport planes with standoff weapons instead... what else are you going to do with bombers? Also while all these transport planes are flying carrying stand off weapons, then how are they moving troops and equipment etc etc?

    How many paratroopers can a B-52 carry?

    He showed a video from Boeing, but those transports will be busy doing other things, it makes more sense to equip your bombers with standoff weapons like the Soviets did in the 1980s.

    Also I partly disagree on your point about the Raptor and Spirit, like it or not they are still capable aircraft and I imagine if push came to shove, the raptors would swat plenty of Sukhois... if they're not sat on the hardstanding being fixed.

    Raptors wont be a problem... they have less than 190 of them so they will most likely be deployed to CONUS to defend against incoming cruise missiles... they simply don't have the flight range to come over the poles with the bombers and even if they did the MiG-31s have R-37Ms to swat them at long range... the R-37Ms have an almost ballistic trajectory to maximise range and coming down near vertically on an F-22 and I rather suspect it wont be as stealthy as you might think... certainly any inflight refuelling aircraft can be clubbed to death. The B-1Bs they are deploying to Norway have their bases inside the 400km range of the S-400 batteries stationed at Murmansk, and MiG-31s would clean them up too.

    In comparison the B-2 is a subsonic target that their ground based radars will detect at enormous range like the Australian radar network detected them from about 6,000km when they were heading for the Middle East. A subsonic flying wing with no defences is not a challenging target for a supersonic fighter.

    American planners haven't been great, it is fair to say they didn't acquire enough B2s and F22s.

    Actually I would argue they bought too many of both... they have only started using F-22s recently and the B-2 hasn't done anything a B-52 could not do so far.

    Their ideal post cold war plan would have been to cancel the B-2 and F-22 before any were made. Start with the F-35 but don't require it to be a VSTOL fighter... just design two versions... a carrier capable cat assisted take off model for carriers and for land and a VSTOL subsonic version for their Marines if they are so desperate for such a thing. The standard version would be a stealthy manouverable sophisticated 21st C F-16, and the VSTOL would be a sort of 21st C Buccaneer... but don't emphasise the stealth too much and make them super expensive like they did.

    They could adapted the F-35 to a larger twin engined model later on when Russia and China started to develop but for most of the 1990s and early 2000s Putin was trying to get the west to create a partnership with Russia rather than being an aggressor as depicted in western press.

    eventually refers to a way to deliver TACTICAL stand-off weapons.

    Nothing to do with the role of STRATEGIC bomber the B-21 will have.

    Needless to say also Russia is doing the same. With Il-76.

    No they wont.

    For the Russians their strategic aircraft are cruise missile carriers and infact the White Swan and Bear have lost their ability to carry conventional bombs and just carry stand off weapons. For conventional bombing at the moment they use the Su-34 for medium range and Tu-22M3M for long range... AFAIK they don't have any strategic nuclear free fall bombs... they are all theatre bombs carried by the Su-34 and Tu-22M3M.

    In the future Russia might use a few dumb bombs on Il-76s for supporting landing troops, but for the stuff they are doing in Syria with Backfires dropping bombs they will use the PAK DA which will carry bombs for theatre conflicts and standoff nuclear weapons for strategic roles.

    is out of place. It's a form of parallel development of basically the same thing with same function. And same limited role.

    The suggestion that the Russian air defence network is too tough to crack and that they expect to launch enormous numbers of standoff weapons from transport planes is ridiculous... such tactics would be asking for a flight of MiG-31s to launch a high speed attack to shoot down those transports and those standoff weapons would struggle to make a dent in the Russian air defence network let alone start to defeat actual targets.

    Naturally also the Backfire could carry stand off and long range antiship missiles, so even it could perform same role than the other two when facing NATO.

    Actually its primary role was theatre SEAD strike with those big anti ship missiles with their big heavy HE warheads replaced by compact small nuclear warheads and more fuel to maximise the range at which they could destroy the HATO air defence network and HQs and Comms centres.

    B-21 and PAK-DA are however very similar: so smearing one and promoting other would be only a sign of chauvinism at this point of their parallel development.

    Not at all... the PAK DA is only intended for a theatre bombing role and in the strategic role would never carry bombs... that is idiotic.... even against an enemy with weak air defences like the US and HATO.

    Russia doesn't have an analogue to the JASSM-ER.

    Kh-102 has a flight range of just over 5,000km, so you are right... it is not an analogue of the Jizzm.

    Air launched kalibr with 2500km range :

    That is a Navy weapon... the standard weapons of the Bears and Blackjacks will be nuclear armed 5,000km range Kh-102s. Previously they used the 3,000km ranged Kh-55SM as its standard cruise missile payload. An enlarged Kalibr using the new technology developed for the Kh-101/102 is entering service with a range of 4,500km in the conventional warhead model for ground targets.

    lyle6 likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 30961
    Points : 31487
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  GarryB Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:50 am

    If the plan is for transports to carry thousands of standoff missiles you are going to have to find weapons cheaper than Jizm and Tomahawk because you simply can't afford enough of them to become an effective swarm... plus having a whole lot of transports deliver enormous numbers of drones and standoff weapons just means Russia could take their new S-500 missiles and make them much simpler with a solid rocket booster and then a scramjet sustainer that can fly thousands of kms with a payload of dozens of 9M96 missiles... which are self contained air to air missiles with ARH that would be fine for shooting down enormous transport planes in enormous numbers so the swarm never becomes a swarm... of course there will likely be a lot of inflight refuelling aircraft and troop transports and probably civilian airliners destroyed too but it will be WWIII so who cares...

    lyle6 likes this post


    Sponsored content

    B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber - Page 2 Empty Re: B-21 "Raider" stealth bomber

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:04 am