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    Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

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    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:25 am

    If they can make the Il-276 with as much commonality as possible with the Il-476 then I think there is a lot of potential for savings... personally I would like to see the Tu-330 go ahead too because it can be made different enough to also be useful for a range of tasks and fill a niche that the Il-276 wont have to match any more.

    Either way... the sooner one or other or both are in production and they can start withdrawing the An-12s from service the better...

    I would like to see variants of the Il-276 replace other Illyusions too like the old Il-18/20/22 still being used...
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:51 am

    Interesting extract from this interview.

    So, it is not clear if they want a transport plane with a payload  of 20 tons (il276) or one with payload of more than 30 tons (tu330 derivative).

    It would be quite interesting if they could also reproprose the idea of a LNG powered tu330, maybe with the PD14M or PD18 since the NK-94 was abandoned.

    https://aviation21.ru/yu-slyusar-avariya-su-57-eto-nepriyatno-no-ona-sdelaet-ego-bolee-sovershennym/

    Who will eventually produce the medium military transporter - Ilyushin or Tupolev?
    - The average transporter should appear by the end of the 2020s. This is a work that largely determines the appearance of the transport line for decades to come. Therefore, for the first time in many years, the creation of a promising medium transport aircraft was organized through a competition of concepts and design bureaus. We need to think far ahead at the entrance to this project.
    We analyzed the market, saw various trends. In the world, the fleet of traditional medium-sized transport carriers with a carrying capacity of about 20 tons is being updated. On the other hand, in the last decade a new segment of medium-heavy transporters with a carrying capacity of about 30-40 tons has formed on the market. Therefore, we have organized a competition, worked out the concepts and appearance of two options for the design of an average transporter, created draft designs.


    An interdepartmental working group with the participation of key institutions, aviation science, industry, the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Industry and Trade is considering options. It is necessary to take into account the targets for using the new transporter, including the parameters of the equipment that is planned to be transported by these aircraft after 2030.
    Based on this study, we are awaiting a decision with the participation of customers - the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Industry and Trade - about which platform will be taken as a basis.
    When working on promising new projects and as part of the UAC transformation program, we are starting to form united engineering teams. Therefore, I have no doubt that the design potential and engineering competencies of Design Bureau Ilyushin and Design Bureau Tupolev - the main participants in the competition, as well as other schools that can be connected to the work at the next stage, will be in demand when creating a promising medium transport aircraft.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:00 pm

    War and Peace Transport
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    Post  slasher on Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:54 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:War and Peace Transport

    Nice read, but Interesting no mention of the Il-96 upgrade or the CR-929 joint project with China.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:27 pm

    https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/05/27/air-force-looking-to-up-gun-its-airlift-planes/

    The VKS can do the same with its IL-76s & AN-22/124s.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:49 am

    The Russians already drop pallets from altitude for the VDV... whether it is weapons or ammo or fuel or food or water they don't need to land or fly low to deliver...

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:37 pm

    Quite interesting article (in Italian, but online translators would solve the issue for those not acquaintance with the "lingua del si") about the PAK-VTA plans.

    https://www.analisidifesa.it/2020/10/ilyushin-vaglia-le-soluzioni-per-il-pak-vta-slon/

    Here it mentions that there is a more conservative program (I imagine that that should be the one based on a slightly enlarged il-106 ) that should be the one going forward now, and one more "risky" based on a lifting fuselage of oval shape, derived from the proposed M60 project from the 80s.
    Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA) - Page 20 10_M_60-2-004

    Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA) - Page 20 10_M_60-3-004

    Of particular interest is the M-60, a concept for a family of passenger and cargo aircraft developed in the late 1980s by the Myasischev Design Bureau but whose name should not be misleading with the homonymous project dating back to the 1950s to  a nuclear-powered supersonic strategic bomber left on paper.

    Shown in the form of models at the MAKS-2017 as well as at the Le Bourget aerospace fair that same year, the M-60 possesses the main feature of a horizontal eight-shaped ovoid-shaped load-bearing fuselage with a straight wing at large aspect ratio,  V-tail and engines on the back;  a variant known as the M-60VT instead exhibited traditional solutions such as the double vertical tail and thrusters under the wings (four NK-93 engines with a thrust of 18,000 kgf or PS-90 with a thrust of 16,000 kgf each), leaving  the particular fuselage intact.

    These are projects that, however, seem to have been inspired by the studies carried out in the 1940s by the Italian naturalized Soviet engineer Roberto Bartini who worked on a transport aircraft known as the T-117 and equipped with the same particular fuselage.

    An almost similar study for a mega commercial airplane with about 600 seats was also carried out in the early 1990s by Airbus and the study took the name of UHCA (Ultra-High Capacity Aircraft);  the UHCA provided for a horizontal eight-figure fuselage design that allowed the possibility of installing 5-6 rows of seats.


    In short, according to Russian military analysts, the Defense would like this possibility to be explored for the future Slon;  others, on the other hand, consider the hypothesis risky since TsAGI has also been working for some time rather on a traditional formula.

    Personally I would believe that the best for Russia would to pursue both projects: the more traditional one, based on the il-106, now, so that it can replace the an22 and partially the lower  limits for the An-124,  and the oval risky project so that it is ready in 10 years time, to replace all the capabilities of the an124 and of the an225.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 04, 2020 11:13 pm

    I would want to know the advantages of the different and more risky shape... what advantages and what problems will they find with a full sized model...

    If the problems can be fixed and the advantages are worth it these are transports and not civil airliner aircraft... so making them the same but with a scaled design means commonality and more benefits spread across two aircraft.

    I do like the idea of engines between the tail units simply because a clean wing and three engines between the vertical tail units offers more flexibility... they could be designed so the intakes are adjustable so for takeoff all three intakes are open and all three engines operating at full power for takeoff from short strips with heavier loads, but once in the air two intakes could open out and the third could close and one engine can be shut down for economic cruise flight with low drag.

    The layout and structure needs to allow access to the engines without special equipment for maintenance etc...

    So for instance two tail mounted PS-90As plus two more under the main wings could be standard to start with where all four engines are used for takeoffs and the tail mounted models shut down for the rest of the flight for long range cruise...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:36 pm

    New IL-476s can now lift 60Ts. IMO, a stretched variant could lift 10-12Ts more.
    IL-76MF has 6.6 m longer fuselage, PS-90A-76 engines, ..and a lift capability of 60Ts, compared with IL-76MD 48Ts. 
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:03 am

    It creates the issue that making it bigger to carry more increases its weight and cost... they know what they need to move around and where... max weights are interesting, but most of the time these aircraft don't operate any where near max takeoff weight, though with more aircraft being fitted with inflight refuelling probes they could start taking advantage of inflight refuelling just after take off with transport planes where they take off with say 50 tons less fuel than they need so they take off lighter... which means they can operate from shorter rougher air strips.

    The thing is that most aircraft can fly at heavier weights than they can take off with, so taking off with 50 tons less fuel than they need and then on route they get a top up of 50 tons of extra fuel means they don't have to fly overweight and can take off faster and safer.

    A stretch of any aircraft and more powerful engines can always add a few tons to the payload capacity but you have to ask yourself is that needed?

    They used the An-22 a lot and it was a popular aircraft, but it likely wasn't carrying 80 ton payloads around the place all the time... but the point is that if there were two Il-76 loads of 40 tons that needed to go to one place but was beyond the single hop flight range of the Il-76 when carrying 40 ton payloads then putting both payloads into one An-22 and flying it all there in one trip direct makes a lot of sense.

    Even two loads.. one of 30 tons and one of 20 tons can still be carried in one An-22 over much greater distances than two Il-76s could manage so it was flexible and popular.

    The problem is that with the withdrawal of the An-22s if you wanted to use one aircraft to carry multiple loads of smaller aircraft over big distances then you had to go to the An-124 which is not as cheap to fly as the An-22. It could carry the payload of three Il-76s at 120 tons over greater flight distances but the fuel costs were huge because as you scale up you increase drag and end up carrying lots of fuel to carry the big airframe around with fuel carrying extra fuel so to speak.

    I would think an Il-106 with a capacity of 90 tons normally and perhaps 110 tons when taking off with reduced fuel either over a shorter flight distance or to be topped up in flight would be a much better alternative to a further stretched Il-476.

    I would think the Il-276 as an An-12 replacement and an An-72 replacement as well because it is a jet and will be faster than the An-12 with a better payload than the An-72.

    I would also like to see a 30 ton capacity Tu-330 made too with different cargo bay width.

    Then the Il-112 and Il-114 and the new replacement for the An-2 and I would say they were set.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:23 am

    GarryB wrote:
    I would think the Il-276 as an An-12 replacement and an An-72 replacement as well because it is a jet and will be faster than the An-12 with a better payload than the An-72.

    I would also like to see a 30 ton capacity Tu-330 made too with different cargo bay width.

    Then the Il-112 and Il-114 and the new replacement for the An-2 and I would say they were set.

    Personally i would like to see both the il276 and tu330, one with 20 tons payload and the other with wider cargo area and 30 to 35 tons of payload. As you were saying the il276 has a lot of commonalities with the bigger il76, but at the same time the tu330 shares a lot of components with the tu204. There is an argument for both, and if there is the money probably the best solution would be to pursue both.

    This way with the existing or planned programs they would have aircrafts for max payloads of 5 (il112v), 20 (il276) , 30-35 (tu330), 48 (the old il76), 60 (the new il76), 90-110 (the new il-106), 120-150 (an 124), and eventually 180 tons (Slon)

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    Post  Isos on Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:03 pm

    Emergency landing. It's broken. Video in the link.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1327150720798355456

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:07 pm

    A stretch of any aircraft and more powerful engines can always add a few tons to the payload capacity but you have to ask yourself is that needed?
    The C-130J-30 is a C-130J stretched with ~1T increase in payload; & all USAF C-141s were stretched- it was = to buying 90 new aircraft, in terms of increased capacity. Extrapolating from that, building stretched IL-476s that could carry more fuel/cargo will reduce the # of basic IL-476/8s & future IL-106s + their engines & pilots that will need to be built & trained.
    Also, some/all older IL-76MDs with many hours left on their airframes could be stretched as well. The $ thus saved will be a lot more than spent on extra fuel they'll burn.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:15 am

    This way with the existing or planned programs they would have aircrafts for max payloads of 5 (il112v), 20 (il276) , 30-35 (tu330), 48 (the old il76), 60 (the new il76), 90-110 (the new il-106), 120-150 (an 124), and eventually 180 tons (Slon)

    True, though the Il-112 could do with a stretched model with more powerful engines... perhaps turbofans for a 10 ton payload capacity perhaps, so you have 5, 10, 20, 35, 48, 60, 110, 120-150, and 180... and then perhaps add a modified 180 ton model with an H tail for external loads for the space industry.

    Over time the 48 and the 120-150 will drop out as they are replaced/upgraded/withdrawn/replaced, so perhaps a reduced power Slon 180 ton could be used for the 120-150 ton range with cheaper less powerful engines, and perhaps a specialist turboprop Il-476 with perhaps a 50 ton capacity and lower flight speed could be developed for paradropping troops and vehicles etc...

    Emergency landing. It's broken. Video in the link

    Civilian, not military...

    The C-130J-30 is a C-130J stretched with ~1T increase in payload;

    It was done because extra capacity was needed.

    & all USAF C-141s were stretched - it was = to buying 90 new aircraft, in terms of increased capacity.

    The C-141 was a bit of a failure like the original C-5, the C-141M and C-5A were improved but still not amazing.

    Extrapolating from that, building stretched IL-476s that could carry more fuel/cargo will reduce the # of basic IL-476/8s & future IL-106s + their engines & pilots that will need to be built & trained.

    Wrong. Very few aircraft operate very often at max capacity and sometimes fly with much less than max payload weights. Sometimes that is because of density... if you are transferring something like a Hind helicopter you take off the rotor blades and squeeze a few inside but it is unlikely you can fit the max payload limit of Hind helicopters inside such aircraft.

    Stretching them makes them heavier and requires better runways and means more fuel needs to be burned just moving around...

    The size and weight and payload of the Il-476 didn't just happen by accident... it is already a stretched version of an Il-76 so unless they are idiots it is probably already the size they want.

    Also, some/all older IL-76MDs with many hours left on their airframes could be stretched as well. The $ thus saved will be a lot more than spent on extra fuel they'll burn.

    It would be easier and cheaper to just build more Il-476s instead of upgrading old planes... the Il-476 is a stretched Il-76MD anyway, but new build.

    Stretching planes makes them heavier so fuel burn is increased and they need longer takeoff runs and generate more ground pressure because they are heavier but have the same undercarriage.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:46 am

    The size and weight and payload of the Il-476 didn't just happen by accident... it is already a stretched version of an Il-76 ..


    IL-76TD (same asMD) Length: 46.59 m vs.  IL-76MD-90A (IL-476) Length: 46.6m

    The difference is only 0.1m=10cm. They didn't want to spend extra $ & time stretching it more.
    For extra capacity, they may just widen the fuselage on some future IL-476s if the IL-106 is shelved.
    this been done already by 2.12m on the Boeing Dreamlifter.
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    Post  mnztr on Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:42 am

    Isos wrote:Emergency landing. It's broken. Video in the link.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1327150720798355456

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    It will be interesting to find out if they fix it or write it off.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:23 pm

    mnztr wrote:
    Isos wrote:Emergency landing. It's broken. Video in the link.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1327150720798355456

    https://i.servimg.com/u/f71/19/35/56/92/emr9uc11.jpg

    It will be interesting to find out if they fix it or write it off.

    It's not busted enough to write it off

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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:55 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    mnztr wrote:
    Isos wrote:Emergency landing. It's broken. Video in the link.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1327150720798355456

    https://i.servimg.com/u/f71/19/35/56/92/emr9uc11.jpg

    It will be interesting to find out if they fix it or write it off.

    It's not busted enough to write it off


    Indeed, the main airframe seems to be intact albeit the undercarriage and the landing gear has been trashed.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:59 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    The size and weight and payload of the Il-476 didn't just happen by accident... it is already a stretched version of an Il-76 ..


    IL-76TD (same asMD) Length: 46.59 m vs.  IL-76MD-90A (IL-476) Length: 46.6m


    The difference is only 0.1m=10cm. They didn't want to spend extra $ & time stretching it more.
    For extra capacity, they may just widen the fuselage on some future IL-476s if the IL-106 is shelved.
    this been done already by 2.12m on the Boeing Dreamlifter.

    Maybe they did not need to stretch it more (at least for the needs of russian military).the main limit of the il76 is its width, not its lenght.

    And yeah the dream lifter is wider then the basic 747, but they spent a lot of money to develop that version. On the same reasoning, the tu330 is a wider military cargo version of the tu204.
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    Post  mnztr on Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:25 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:

    It's not busted enough to write it off


    I tend to agree and Ukranian repair costs are probably pretty good. The only concern is the impact damage from engine shrapnel to the wing root.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:17 pm

    ..the dream lifter is wider then the basic 747, but they spent a lot of money to develop that version.
    A stretched & widened IL-476 won't need as much $ to develop in Russia & will save more $ on the IL- 106 development & testing. Moreover, having them will prolong the service life of their AN-124s.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:29 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    ..the dream lifter is wider then the basic 747, but they spent a lot of money to develop that version.
    A stretched & widened IL-476 won't need as much $ to develop in Russia & will save more $ on the IL- 106 development & testing. Moreover, having them will prolong the service life of their AN-124s.
    yeah but it will never be able to carry as much as a il106 anyway. At maximum it could end up as a sort of y20 equivalent (but with better engines). It may be useful, but i thought Russia would have liked something bigger.

    The money on the il106 is not wasted, if this is what they want. Some of the loads that are a bit too wide (but not too long or too heavy) could be even carried on a tu330
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:44 pm

    If needed, a stretched & widened IL-476 could be stretched & widened again to approach the IL-106 size. Although smaller, there is also a design of Y-20F-100.
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    Post  AMCXXL on Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:47 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    The size and weight and payload of the Il-476 didn't just happen by accident... it is already a stretched version of an Il-76 ..


    IL-76TD (same asMD) Length: 46.59 m vs.  IL-76MD-90A (IL-476) Length: 46.6m



    The difference is only 0.1m=10cm. They didn't want to spend extra $ & time stretching it more.
    For extra capacity, they may just widen the fuselage on some future IL-476s if the IL-106 is shelved.
    this been done already by 2.12m on the Boeing Dreamlifter.

    Maybe they did not need to stretch it more (at least for the needs of russian military).the main limit of the il76 is its width, not its lenght.

    And yeah the dream lifter is wider then the basic 747, but they spent a lot of money to develop that version.  On the same reasoning, the tu330 is a wider military cargo version of the tu204.

    Il-76M length: 46,6 m payload , 47 tons
    Il-76MD length: 53,2 m payload , 47 tons
    Il-76MD-90A length: 53,2 m , payload 62 tons

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:49 pm

    If the C-141 was stretched by 7.11m & IL-76M by 6.6m to make the MD variant & further 6.6м to make the MF variant with 60T payload, IMO the IL-76MD & IL-476 could also be stretched by at least  6.6м more, esp. since they now have better & more powerful engines. That could add ~12Ts to its 60T payload, making it 72Ts, only 5Ts less than on the C-17. 

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