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They don't consider them completely foreign, and recently invited Antonov engineers & designers to RF to continue their school & work. Originally Antonov came from RSFR to Kiev a few decades ago. Nothing beats AN-124/225 as heavy cargo aircraft so far; RF lost so much to sanctions after Crimea's return that it won't make much difference if they loose another lawsuit. I don't think the yet to be build & tested IL-106 will be on a par with even basic AN-124 (it can be stretched & upgraded); replacing IL-76s & AN-22s is another matter. IL-106 maturation, once fielded, will take at least a decade or 2 to become = to AN-124 & its derivatives.
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Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5953
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miketheterrible- Posts : 7383
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Tsavo Lion wrote:They don't consider them completely foreign, and recently invited Antonov engineers & designers to RF to continue their school & work. Originally Antonov came from RSFR to Kiev a few decades ago. Nothing beats AN-124/225 as heavy cargo aircraft so far; RF lost so much to sanctions after Crimea's return that it won't make much difference if they loose another lawsuit. I don't think the yet to be build & tested IL-106 will be on a par with even basic AN-124 (it can be stretched & upgraded); replacing IL-76s & AN-22s is another matter. IL-106 maturation, once fielded, will take at least a decade or 2 to become = to AN-124 & its derivatives.
Antanov is dead, get over it. Most acknowledge it but you. If you don't think so, go to keypublishing forums and ask what they think.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5953
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But Antonov people are still alive & can sell their expertise on the outside. Don't give me directions here, I don't need your smart suggestions!
miketheterrible- Posts : 7383
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Tsavo Lion wrote:But Antonov people are still alive & can sell their expertise on the outside. Don't give me directions here, I don't need your smart suggestions!
You are grasping at last hope. I understand you. But sometimes it is best to just accept things for what it is.
GarryB- Posts : 39672
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They don't consider them completely foreign, and recently invited Antonov engineers & designers to RF to continue their school & work.
They are no longer able to buy Antonov designs from the Ukraine, that relationship is over.
They have made offers for specialists in the Ukraine to move to Russia and become Russian citizens but I doubt the idea is for one member of a family to move to Russia and send their income to the Ukraine to support the family living there.
Originally Antonov came from RSFR to Kiev a few decades ago.
The fact that Antonov is Russian means nothing.
They don't have any An-225s so there is nothing to miss in that regard.Nothing beats AN-124/225 as heavy cargo aircraft so far; RF lost so much to sanctions after Crimea's return that it won't make much difference if they loose another lawsuit.
With the An-124 they have enough to get by right now and can continue to use the ones they have but they wont last forever and they need something to replace them... their plans are for an aircraft family based around a new powerful engine with a twin, a quad, and a six engine family of aircraft.
Once the engine is ready I don't see any reason not to go ahead with that plan... I am sure plenty of countries would buy their surplus aircraft when they become available...
I don't think the yet to be build & tested IL-106 will be on a par with even basic AN-124 (it can be stretched & upgraded);
The Il-106 fills a gap being created by the withdrawal of the An-22... it would be too small to replace the An-124 except for missions where the An-124 is too big to start with.
IL-106 maturation, once fielded, will take at least a decade or 2 to become = to AN-124 & its derivatives.
Why?
The only derivative of the An-124 is the An-225 and although the Ukraine has said it wants to build more I can't see that happening now.
There have been plenty of improvements in materials and design technology that a new Russian family of aircraft could benefit from and new engines could also benefit from the improvements too.
As a stopgap the new engines could be fitted to An-124s to remove one reliance on the Ukraine in the shorter term.
Further upgraded engine models could conceivably be fitted to Bears if they are still around in numbers that make it worth while.
But Antonov people are still alive & can sell their expertise on the outside. Don't give me directions here, I don't need your smart suggestions!
Some will go to Russia no doubt, but just as many will look to Airbus and Boeing... despite the language and cultural barriers of doing so.
Tupolev and Ilyusion have plenty of gifted engineers too and supercomputers and new materials and engines to work with too.
Russia has bent over backwards to keep ties with the Ukraine... continuing to use Ukrainian engines and parts and all they get is shit in return. It is the Ukraine that has cut off ties, so there is no point in looking in that direction for anything... Russia could cherry pick the best talent, but what happens if they turn out to be 5th columnists who just want to get back at Russia for whatever imaginary reason.
Russia is better off designing new replacement aircraft, that they own and can produce on their own terms.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5953
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"AN-124 & its derivatives"- corr.: I meant "modifications". Time will tell- they hope to resume production later. Why spend $Ms organizing production of new designs in RF that will take decades to = or surpass Antonov? The TU-330 was proposed years ago but it's still a paper plane. The TU-334 prototype flew but it was never produced to replace the TU-134; the quote above has АN-148 as the only option. https://web.archive.org/web/20070208061312/http://www.tupolev.ru/English/Show.asp?SectionID=123 http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/tu-330.htmГП "Антонов" и российские предприятия стремятся сохранить и продолжить межгосударственную кооперацию в вопросах взаимных поставок узлов и агрегатов, направленную на сохранение производства и строительство новых самолетов семейства Ан-148/158/178. Воронежское акционерное самолетостроительное общество (ВАСО) может прекратить производство самолетов Ан-148, начиная с 2019 года. Такое судьбоносное решение о «консервации» проекта приняла Объединенная авиастроительная корпорация (ОАК), что следует из годового отчета. Руководство ОАК поручило воронежскому авиазаводу подготовить план мероприятий, необходимых для закрытия производства, минимизировать убытки и сохранить производственный персонал. В настоящее время руководством ВАСО ведутся переговоры о поставках самолетов Ан-148 в Индию, Анголу и Казахстан. Также интерес проявляют российские военные, которые планируют заменить 37 самолетов Ту-134А и Ту-134А-3 (1975-1983 года выпуска), активно используемые для перевозки высшего руководства и личного состава. Об интересе к закупкам самолетов Ан-148 в июне заявляли в руководстве авиации войск национальной гвардии Российской Федерации.http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2731920.html
https://lenta.ru/news/2016/05/26/tu334/ They never built pure cargo planes; the Ilyushin had but who knows how long will it take for IL-112/214/106s to be tested, accepted & built in sufficient numbers? https://www.rbth.com/defence/2015/07/21/russia_looks_to_modernize_indonesian_air_force_47883.html
OTH, 8 AN-22s = 11 IL-476 in payload capacity. If 3 more AN-22s added to the 5 now active & kept flying for another decade or so, the shortage of 11 IL-476 won't be felt at all.
Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:43 pm; edited 2 times in total
GarryB- Posts : 39672
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Why spend $Ms organizing production of new designs in RF that will take decades to = or surpass Antonov?
There is nothing magic about antonovs.
With similar engines the performance of new aircraft should be better as most in service Antonovs are not new aircraft... the An-22 is a 1960s design, the An-12 older and the An-124 newer but not by that much.
Investing money in Russian companies to build Russian transports that can be sold world wide on the international market makes enormous sense... vastly more than trying to revive ancient foreign designs which they definitely would not be able to sell on the international market.
The Il-112V will fly next year... it will replace the light antonov turboprops... the AN-24 and An-26, and will also likely replace other foreign types like the ATR etc.
The Il-214 will replace the An-12 which is in service in large numbers. Other replacements are not that urgent... but a replacement for all Antonovs is needed.
The TU-334 prototype flew but it was never produced to replace the TU-134; the quote above has АN-148 as the only option.
No, the An-148 is not an option. The Superjet 100 from Sukhoi would make more sense in that size and weight class.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5953
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The AN-2 is being modernized in RF: https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20170715/1498514437.html
The AN-22 could follow it, if found feasible, regardless of it's Ukrainian origins. The ILs were 1st built in Uzbekistan but later in the RF. Ukraine is a terminally ill failing state like Iraq was before 4/03 & USSR was by 1991. https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/four-ukrainian-soldiers-killed-3-wounded-overnight-war-zone.html
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-separatists-malorussia-criticism-zakharchenko-plotnitsky-poroshenko/28623190.html
The AN-22 could follow it, if found feasible, regardless of it's Ukrainian origins. The ILs were 1st built in Uzbekistan but later in the RF. Ukraine is a terminally ill failing state like Iraq was before 4/03 & USSR was by 1991. https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/four-ukrainian-soldiers-killed-3-wounded-overnight-war-zone.html
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-separatists-malorussia-criticism-zakharchenko-plotnitsky-poroshenko/28623190.html
miketheterrible- Posts : 7383
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That's an An-2 by name due to design. It isn't an AN-2 at all but a whole new build using full composite frame.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5953
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Using the brand name is a violation of intellectual/proprietary property laws. Antonov invoked it when RF planned to re-engine its AN-124s. If just 1 part of a new design is the same, it's still illegal produce it w/o a licence from the original designer/manufacturer. But they are going ahead with it; the AN-70 derivatives are being offered worldwide except to RF which paid $100M for its development. China reverse engineered many Soviet & American designs as they badly needed to circumvent embargoes. Ukraine is dying & very vulnerable. The bottom line: it's a liability like Crimea but in the long run the RF would have lost more if it didn't act to take it back.
miketheterrible- Posts : 7383
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Tsavo Lion wrote:Using the brand name is a violation of intellectual/proprietary property laws. Antonov invoked it when RF planned to re-engine its AN-124s. If just 1 part of a new design is the same, it's still illegal produce it w/o a licence from the original designer/manufacturer. But they are going ahead with it; the AN-70 derivatives are being offered worldwide except to RF which paid $100M for its development. China reverse engineered many Soviet & American designs as they badly needed to circumvent embargoes. Ukraine is dying & very vulnerable. The bottom line: it's a liability like Crimea but in the long run the RF would have lost more if it didn't act to take it back.
But as explained in this very forums if you paid attention, it isn't actually called AN-2. It is just an AN-2 design. BTW, Copyright laws have to be constantly updated over the years or they lose the right to the design. In this case, Kalashnikov keeps updating copyright laws on the AK design as an example so that others who do use the design, can be sued. Now Antonov isn't existent anymore thanks to the Ukrainian government, so there really isn't a whole lot they can do now.
Name is called: TVS-2DTS. Not a pretty name I know.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5953
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So, there's no legal inheritor of Antonov? RF can still sue the new entity that took it over to get $100M back if AN-70 derivatives are exported. BTW, Russia is legal inheritor of the USSR & can cause a lot more legal problems to Kiev if it wanted to.
miketheterrible- Posts : 7383
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Russia is playing the game of being mister nice guy in order to win hearts and minds.Tsavo Lion wrote:So, there's no legal inheritor of Antonov? RF can still sue the new entity that took it over to get $100M back if AN-70 derivatives are exported. BTW, Russia is legal inheritor of the USSR & can cause a lot more legal problems to Kiev if it wanted to.
d_taddei2- Posts : 2967
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Sorry been out of the loop for a while. Has Antonov collapsed or been bought out/ transferred?
miketheterrible- Posts : 7383
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It was consolidated under a single military manufacturing branch. To be honest, that is probably the best bet for saving money while building what you need. But knowing Ukraine, it has probably been stripped.
d_taddei2- Posts : 2967
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Funding will be stolen and the plant will be reduced to almost nothing and no new aircraft and increased shoddy build quality
GarryB- Posts : 39672
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Russia wont get anything back from what was invested into the An-70 programme... all they can really do is continue to create Russian alternatives to Ukrainian aircraft and components and move forward with those.
This will mean new Russian designs they can sell around the world to fill the gap between the no longer available Soviet designs and the too expensive or sanctioned western models.
There will be no Russian models if they continue to revive An-22s etc.
This will mean new Russian designs they can sell around the world to fill the gap between the no longer available Soviet designs and the too expensive or sanctioned western models.
There will be no Russian models if they continue to revive An-22s etc.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13372
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This chart shows level of contribution in construction of Antonov aircraft. As you can see there was never a point in time when Russia needed Ukraine's participation in construction of transport aircraft.
It was in fact other way around. So can we please stop wasting time with inserting Ukraine in any discussion about manufacture of transport aircraft for anyone, least of all Russia?
Antonov was never anything more than a name and is finished along with the Ukraine.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5953
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The designs & planes will live on:
Y-9, H-6K, MA-600 & J-8 are examples of older aircraft designs evolving into new: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaanxi_Y-9 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_H-6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_J-8 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_MA600
Clearly they are grasping for straws:
https://sputniknews.com/military/201707061055284194-an77-prospects-analysis/
The Russian Defense Ministry has already begun efforts to ensure that its 20 An-124 aircraft will be inspected by OAK subsidiary Ilyushin. ..The flight range of a Mriya, equipped with a regiment of 2,000 troops and five heavy tanks, is over 2,500 km. This means that with a dozen such aircraft, the PLA would be able to transfer at least one tank battalion or division almost anywhere in Southeast Asia." https://sputniknews.com/europe/201609161045372782-antonov-aviation-giant-collapse-analysis/
Y-9, H-6K, MA-600 & J-8 are examples of older aircraft designs evolving into new: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaanxi_Y-9 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_H-6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_J-8 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_MA600
Clearly they are grasping for straws:
https://sputniknews.com/military/201707061055284194-an77-prospects-analysis/
miketheterrible- Posts : 7383
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Yes, designs will live on. The entity itself may be dead.
As noted at MAKS. A huge portion of Ukrainian military technicians and engineers in Karkov and antonov joined Russian MiC. Of course they are undergoing lots of background checks and screening to prevent dangerous activity.
As noted at MAKS. A huge portion of Ukrainian military technicians and engineers in Karkov and antonov joined Russian MiC. Of course they are undergoing lots of background checks and screening to prevent dangerous activity.
GarryB- Posts : 39672
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This means that with a dozen such aircraft, the PLA would be able to transfer at least one tank battalion or division almost anywhere in Southeast Asia."
There were only two Myria aircraft built AFAIK and it was too expensive to keep one flying...
Losing a whole division because of one S-300 battery is nothing to be proud of... and the An-225 has no rough landing capability when fully loaded so we are talking siting SAMs... even relatively small ones near the major airstrips for that last minute kill...
Might be OK for Russia to quickly move elite forces from one side of the country to the other in a dangerous situation, but most of the time rail or sea transport is much safer if a little slower.
BTW there is nothing wrong with the An-22, An-124, and An-225 designs, except that Russia does not have any An-225s, and its An-22s are old and need replacing. In such a situation it simply makes sense to develop a family of aircraft... they are already developing new engines... the PD-35 is being considered for the Il-96 to replace the four engines used with two PD-35s. In such a case two of the same new engines could be used on an An-22 replacement... scale it up a little and put four engines and you have an An-124 replacement and again if you scale it up a little further and give it a different tail structure to allow loads on the aircrafts back like large fuel tanks for space craft and of course six engines then you have a family of Russian aircraft that can be made of the latest materials of the newest design that can be sold around the world and produced in reasonable numbers for the next 50 years.
Of course keep using the An-22 and An-124 until they are worn out... but don't keep them longer than they are needed...
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5953
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AN-225s can be also flown into a secure areas like Sinkiang, Inner Mongolia, near North Korea, Yunnan & Tibet in any crisis on the PRC's borders. China can later sell AN-225 documentation to the RF- it would cost a lot le$$ than designing an IL-106 6 engine derivative. Actually, if more powerful engine is available, AN-225 or its derivative could use just 4 engines. .."the PD-35 is being considered for the Il-96 to replace the four engines used with two PD-35s."- is there a reference for this? I wonder how long it'll take to finally create a twin engine IL-98. Those could be made into more efficient tankers & AWACS, replacing IL-78s & A-50/100 Then some of the latter could be exported/converted to pure cargo transports.
GarryB- Posts : 39672
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China can later sell AN-225 documentation to the RF- it would cost a lot le$$ than designing an IL-106 6 engine derivative.
Why would Russia buy that? They already produced the An-124... the An-225 is just an An-124 with two extra engines, extended body and new H shaped tail...
It would not cost less to design a family of Il transports... the whole point of a family of aircraft design is to allow the cheap development of different size vehicles for different roles that are related but different enough that they cannot be performed by just one design.
Actually, if more powerful engine is available, AN-225 or its derivative could use just 4 engines. .."the PD-35 is being considered for the Il-96 to replace the four engines used with two PD-35s."- is there a reference for this? I wonder how long it'll take to finally create a twin engine IL-98. Those could be made into more efficient tankers & AWACS, replacing IL-78s & A-50/100 Then some of the latter could be exported/converted to pure cargo transports.
I think it was in the civilian Russian aircraft thread... the PD-35 is being developed from the new engine being developed for the Tu-160M2 and PAK DA... the former being a low bypass turbofan with AB, while the latter will more likely be a high bypass turbofan for subsonic flight.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5953
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As I wrote- AN-124 Ruslan 2 derivatives under the new name АN-124-100-150М "Elephant": https://www.popmech.ru/technologies/news-378332-iz-ruslana-sdelayut-slona/ http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2742690.html No need to wait for IL-106 on steroids! Also, I'm not sure they'll absolutely need AN-225 6 engine substitute- unless to use it also for space launches like PRC is going to. http://www.popsci.com/china-will-resurrect-worlds-largest-plane
GarryB- Posts : 39672
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As I wrote- AN-124 Ruslan 2 derivatives under the new name АN-124-100-150М "Elephant":
And they are upgrading the Su-27 in the form of the Su-35... do you think that means they will not buy PAK FA?
Upgrades are normal, but at the end of the day they need replacements anyway, and creating a unified family of aircraft that are all Russian and use all Russian components with foreign components available for export customers makes much more sense... eventually they will need to replace them... now that they are developing a suitable engine it makes sense to start work now if they have not already started.
Also, I'm not sure they'll absolutely need AN-225 6 engine substitute- unless to use it also for space launches like PRC is going to
They have been using the Myasishchev VMT based transport for that role but was withdrawn as it was needed for parts of the Buran. In the last 20 years it would have had little use for the space industry though they might have used it just because it was available, but in the near future when the heavy lift rockets are being developed a new heavy lifter will be needed.
Now that they are developing heavy space launch vehicles having a way to move large items in one piece makes more sense than ever before.