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Isos
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    Croatian Armed Forces

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:55 pm

    Since serbia is getting upgraded mig-29 and buk/pantsir from russia and belorussia, mig-21 is off the table even upgraded it would be a useless aircraft.

    Israeli f-16 will offer them more capacity with HARM and better radar than mig-21's.
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    Post  d_taddei2 Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:04 pm

    Isos wrote:Since serbia is getting upgraded mig-29 and buk/pantsir from russia and belorussia, mig-21 is off the table even upgraded it would be a useless aircraft.

    Israeli f-16 will offer them more capacity with HARM and better radar than mig-21's.

    is croatia and serbia going to war anytime soon??????????????

    croatia or Serbia is very unlikely to go to war again croatia doesn't need high tech equipment. Last i heard the israeli F-16 deal was cancelled.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:56 am

    Sadly need doesn't come in to it... there will be pressure to buy F-16s for all insignificant countries sucking up to the US... there was even talk of New Zealand buying F-16s to replace our Skyhawks...

    With current US pressure to its first line allies to buy F-35s they will want the less rich allies to buy up all the newly available second hand F-16s to keep their spares sales working... need or want does not come in to it.

    If Croatia really wanted to become a useful part of NATO it would buy super cheap simple LIFT to protect its own airspace like Italian version Yak-130s, and spend the money it saved on Il-76s and other transport aircraft that would actually be much more use to NATO operations than more fighter planes that every nation takes with it to conflicts.

    But of course the US knows they can't afford C-17s and Europe knows they can't afford A-400Ms, so they will only be happy with them buying second hand F-16s instead... anything else will get them in the shit... even though a dozen Il-76 transports would be 100 times more useful than two dozen F-16s in most HATO operations and exercises...
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    Post  George1 Fri May 21, 2021 12:17 pm

    Croatian Air Force chooses French Dassault Rafale F3R fighters
    Today, 13: 38

    The protracted Croatian tender for new fighters has finally come to its logical conclusion, Zagreb has decided on the replacement of the Soviet MiG-21 bis fighters. According to local media reports, the choice of the Croats fell on the French Dassault Rafale fighters.

    The Croatian government declared France the winner of the tender for the supply of fighters for the republic's air force and intends to enter into pre-contract negotiations with the French. In the final round, France with Dassault Rafale fighters overtook the USA with F-16V Block 70/72 fighters.

    According to preliminary information, the Croats want to buy 12 Rafale fighters from the French Air Force. All aircraft must be modified to F3R standard and not older than 10 years. If the contract is signed, the fighters will be delivered in 2024 and 2025.

    The cost of the contract, which, in addition to the aircraft themselves, will include training, weapons and various equipment, "just under $ 1 billion."

    Recall that Croatia announced the first tender for the replacement of the Soviet-made MiG-21 bis in 2017. As a result, Israel won in 2018, offering for $ 500 million to supply 12 F-16 Barak fighters from the Air Force, two simulators and pilot training services. However, the deal was blocked by the United States, which also participated in the tender for the new F-16V Block 70/72 fighters).

    After that, a second tender was announced and by November last year, the United States (F-16V Block 70/72 new construction), Israel (modernized F-16C / D Block 30 out of stock), France (Rafale F3R out of stock) and Sweden (JAS-39C / D Gripen new build). The Americans and the French reached the final, but the latter were more fortunate and now the Croats are planning to fly on the Dassault Rafale.

    https://en.topwar.ru/183217-horvatskie-vvs-popolnjatsja-francuzskimi-istrebiteljami-dassault-rafale-f3r.html

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    Post  d_taddei2 Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:00 pm

    Seems to becoming in two batches. Croatia must have deep pockets to not only purchase but to also maintain them, a big difference between maintaining Mig-21 and Rafael, shock system (armed forces budget). And a fairly big jump in training with the sophisticated systems and not just flying but also training for maintenance.


    https://defence-blog.com/croatia-buys-french-rafale-fighters-to-replace-mig-21/
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    Post  GarryB Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:12 am

    Makes it pretty clear that Russia could probably do with a few more fighter aircraft... for the next 5-10 years producing some MiG-35s would make sense as they are relatively cheap to buy and relatively cheap to operate and then when the Checkmate is ready they can test it against the MiG equivalent and decide which to put into production to fill the gaps.
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    Post  miketheterrible Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:20 am

    GarryB wrote:Makes it pretty clear that Russia could probably do with a few more fighter aircraft... for the next 5-10 years producing some MiG-35s would make sense as they are relatively cheap to buy and relatively cheap to operate and then when the Checkmate is ready they can test it against the MiG equivalent and decide which to put into production to fill the gaps.

    But I would wager that the Rafale is a much better jet than the MiG-35. In this regard, only alternatives would be the Su-30SM (upgraded), 35 or Checkmate and Su-57. The MiG-29/35 just isn't enough against this Rafale.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:34 am


    MiG-35 is a dead end

    Do it right or don't do at all

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    Post  d_taddei2 Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:31 am

    More info. Seems they are buying secondhand aircraft. And they aren't cheap.

    "Croatia signed a government-to-government deal with France, worth 999 million euros, for the acquisition of 12 second-hand Dassault Rafale"

    "The contract reportedly involves 10 single-seater and two twin-seater Rafales in the F3-R standard, with the first six aircraft scheduled to be delivered in 2024 and the remaining ones due the following year"

    https://theaviationist.com/2021/11/30/croatia-buys-rafale/

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:03 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:More info. Seems they are buying secondhand aircraft. And they aren't cheap.

    "Croatia signed a government-to-government deal with France, worth 999 million euros, for the acquisition of 12 second-hand Dassault Rafale"

    "The contract reportedly involves 10 single-seater and two twin-seater Rafales in the F3-R standard, with the first six aircraft scheduled to be delivered in 2024 and the remaining ones due the following year"

    https://theaviationist.com/2021/11/30/croatia-buys-rafale/

    Yes those are from the firsts delivered to french air force.

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    marcellogo
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    Post  marcellogo Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:14 pm

    Isos wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:More info. Seems they are buying secondhand aircraft. And they aren't cheap.

    "Croatia signed a government-to-government deal with France, worth 999 million euros, for the acquisition of 12 second-hand Dassault Rafale"

    "The contract reportedly involves 10 single-seater and two twin-seater Rafales in the F3-R standard, with the first six aircraft scheduled to be delivered in 2024 and the remaining ones due the following year"

    https://theaviationist.com/2021/11/30/croatia-buys-rafale/

    Yes those are from the firsts delivered to french air force.

    Mo nema za ideju,gospodine!
    The contract involves not only the purchase of the planes but also of the weaponries and  full sets spare parts and the training of the pilots and the maintenance crews, hence because it is signed now but the plane would be delivered just between three years.
    Planes itself  are  of the most modern standard actually in service on the Armee de l'Air introducted into service in 2019.
    Now , I didn't know what production block croatian planes would be but surely they would be refurbished and taken back into zero hour condition, as this is anornìmal practise in such contracts.
    So,  an hell of a good deal in any case!
    Above all compared to other offers previously made, like the Israeli one.

    P.S. I have made a quick check: they have less than ten year i.e.are all of F-3 standard, introduced in 2009.
    So, confirmed: an hell Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil of a good deal.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:16 pm

    But I would wager that the Rafale is a much better jet than the MiG-35.

    But a MIG-35 operating defending Russian airspace operating inside their IADS is going to kick Rafale ass... and how many Rafales are there on Russias border?

    For 2 billion the Indians got about 30 MiG-29s and a dozen Su-30s... and for 8 and a half billion they got 36 Rafales... a dozen Su-35s with 30 MiG-35s operating with it for the price of 36 Rafales...

    The MiG-29/35 just isn't enough against this Rafale.

    But the Rafale is the only western aircraft worth a damn, and how much exactly do you know about both aircraft to make that claim?

    What is the actual performance of the AESA radar they will fit to the MiG-35 in Russian service?

    What about operational costs?

    MiG-35 is a dead end

    Do it right or don't do at all

    But you aren't biased.

    More info. Seems they are buying secondhand aircraft. And they aren't cheap.

    "Croatia signed a government-to-government deal with France, worth 999 million euros, for the acquisition of 12 second-hand Dassault Rafale"

    "The contract reportedly involves 10 single-seater and two twin-seater Rafales in the F3-R standard, with the first six aircraft scheduled to be delivered in 2024 and the remaining ones due the following year

    Funny they don't round it up to one billion... who do they think they are fooling?

    Yes those are from the firsts delivered to french air force.

    The UK are scrapping their Typhoons because the first ones deployed would cost so much to get them up to current levels it would be cheaper to just make new ones.... wonder what skeletons these aircraft have in their closets.
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    Post  Isos Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:26 pm

    marcellogo wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:More info. Seems they are buying secondhand aircraft. And they aren't cheap.

    "Croatia signed a government-to-government deal with France, worth 999 million euros, for the acquisition of 12 second-hand Dassault Rafale"

    "The contract reportedly involves 10 single-seater and two twin-seater Rafales in the F3-R standard, with the first six aircraft scheduled to be delivered in 2024 and the remaining ones due the following year"

    https://theaviationist.com/2021/11/30/croatia-buys-rafale/

    Yes those are from the firsts delivered to french air force.

    Mo nema za ideju,gospodine!
    The contract involves not only the purchase of the planes but also of the weaponries and  full sets spare parts and the training of the pilots and the maintenance crews, hence because it is signed now but the plane would be delivered just between three years.
    Planes itself  are  of the most modern standard actually in service on the Armee de l'Air introducted into service in 2019.
    Now , I didn't know what production block croatian planes would be but surely they would be refurbished and taken back into zero hour condition, as this is anornìmal practise in such contracts.
    So,  an hell of a good deal in any case!
    Above all compared to other offers previously made, like the Israeli one.

    P.S. I have made a quick check: they have less than ten year i.e.are all of F-3 standard, introduced in 2009.
    So, confirmed: an hell Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil of a good deal.

    0 hour condition is impossible. You can change some parts inside but the airframe is still old.

    At around 83 million per aircraft it's still expensive. Price of a new one.

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    Post  marcellogo Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:22 am

    Isos wrote:
    marcellogo wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:More info. Seems they are buying secondhand aircraft. And they aren't cheap.

    "Croatia signed a government-to-government deal with France, worth 999 million euros, for the acquisition of 12 second-hand Dassault Rafale"

    "The contract reportedly involves 10 single-seater and two twin-seater Rafales in the F3-R standard, with the first six aircraft scheduled to be delivered in 2024 and the remaining ones due the following year"

    https://theaviationist.com/2021/11/30/croatia-buys-rafale/

    Yes those are from the firsts delivered to french air force.

    .

    P.S. I have made a quick check: they have less than ten year i.e.are all of F-3 standard, introduced in 2009.
    So, confirmed: an hell Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil of a good deal.

    0 hour condition is impossible. You can change some parts inside but the airframe is still old.

    At around 83 million per aircraft it's still expensive. Price of a new one.

    Isos, you are making confusion between key in hand prices and the ones including a complete support deal like in this case, including weapons like MICA, guided bombs, spare parts, accessories and training courses for both pilots and ground crews.
    Practically they have bought not just planes but a complete new Air Force with this contract.

    0 hours means that they are guaranteed with the same available hours of service life than a new one.
    Fact is that they are of the last hardware production batch, as refurbing at such a condition older ones would have turned even more costly for the seller (as it is a G2G contract).
    Actually, Croats would receive  even more modern planes than a great part of  the ones that will remain instead in service in the Armee de l'Air.
    That's because french government has signed instead a very unfavorable deal with Dassault  and it is forced to buy a certain number of new production planes each year, so they are forced to sell out (not at all) old ones to make space for them.
    Some features offered by Rafale F-3R configuration are even redundant for HRZ i PZO real needs and actual capability (just think about aerial refuelling in such a tiny country) but as it was really an one in a lifetime deal they took them the same.
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    Post  d_taddei2 Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:46 am

    Even with weapons, training etc it's still expensive for second hand jets u can overhaul as much as u want your still getting second hand jets that are over 10yrs old. Yes it's better than the F-16 deal but the F-16 deal was $420m not $999m. But Croatia as the saying goes beggars can't be choosers. They couldn't really afford new planes unless a credit line was given. I actually think they would have been better doing what Hungary did a lease gripen from the Swedes or buy second hand gripen would have been cheaper, and cheaper to maintain, and gripen is enough for their needs.
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    Post  lancelot Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:07 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:Even with weapons, training etc it's still expensive for second hand jets u can overhaul as much as u want your still getting second hand jets that are over 10yrs old. Yes it's better than the F-16 deal but the F-16 deal was $420m not $999m. But Croatia as the saying goes beggars can't be choosers. They couldn't really afford new planes unless a credit line was given. I actually think they would have been better doing what Hungary did a lease gripen from the Swedes or buy second hand gripen would have been cheaper, and cheaper to maintain, and gripen is enough for their needs.

    The Gripen is much inferior to the Rafale as a fighter. But I agree it would have been sufficient.
    I would not bet on the F-16 being much cheaper since the market rate right now even for second hand F-16s is quite high.
    At least if you want the F-16s to be upgraded to a fairly modern standard and refurbish the airframe. If you don't do that then they wouldn't last much.
    I doubt Israeli F-16s would have a lot of hours left in them given the high tempo their air force has.
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    Post  Isos Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:58 am

    Isos, you are making confusion between key in hand prices and the ones including a complete support deal like in this case, including weapons like MICA, guided bombs, spare parts, accessories and training courses for both pilots and ground crews.

    And you overestimates the numbers. At ~80 million per jet, the number of spare parts and missiles will be extremely low. Mica cost around 1 million if not more. Spare parts are bought when you need them, their price may grow up then. French maintennce and training is expensive so they will get something minimal if is included in those 80 million $.


    Those new jets are also extremely difficult to maintain in readiness and operationnal. Be it Rafale, su-57 or typhoon. Croatia isn't really rich and they will struggle maintaining all 12 of them. In 5 years they will be canibalizing half of them for sure.

    They would have been better with upgraded mirage-2000 that they can buy anywhere in the world (and broken ones for spare parts) or second hand f-16 which are also widely used and easy to find spare parts.

    It's not like Croatia also need such an advanced plane... the region is quite stable and the neighbours don't have advanced jet either or the money to buy advanced jets.
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    Post  d_taddei2 Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:43 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:Even with weapons, training etc it's still expensive for second hand jets u can overhaul as much as u want your still getting second hand jets that are over 10yrs old. Yes it's better than the F-16 deal but the F-16 deal was $420m not $999m. But Croatia as the saying goes beggars can't be choosers. They couldn't really afford new planes unless a credit line was given. I actually think they would have been better doing what Hungary did a lease gripen from the Swedes or buy second hand gripen would have been cheaper, and cheaper to maintain, and gripen is enough for their needs.

    The Gripen is much inferior to the Rafale as a fighter. But I agree it would have been sufficient.
    I would not bet on the F-16 being much cheaper since the market rate right now even for second hand F-16s is quite high.
    At least if you want the F-16s to be upgraded to a fairly modern standard and refurbish the airframe. If you don't do that then they wouldn't last much.
    I doubt Israeli F-16s would have a lot of hours left in them given the high tempo their air force has.

    The deal for the F-16 was for $420m that's more than half of the cost of the rafale at $999m. Yes the gripen isn't as good as rafale but their needs would met by gripen.
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    Post  Isos Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:16 pm

    Grippen is the worst choice because you depend on something like 10 countries for spare parts. Get one angry and you can't fly it anymore.
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    Post  d_taddei2 Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:31 pm

    Isos wrote:Grippen is the worst choice because you depend on something like 10 countries for spare parts. Get one angry and you can't fly it anymore.

    This point is null and void. Croatian isn't on unfriendly terms with any country in EU and what happens if they fall out with France? I can't Croatian falling out with anyone who is supplying arms. Mirage 2000 production ended in 2007. So not a great choice. At least if they lease gripen they will get either new or almost new aircraft and gripen is still being produced so very likely more upgrades to follow.
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    Post  Isos Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:36 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:
    Isos wrote:Grippen is the worst choice because you depend on something like 10 countries for spare parts. Get one angry and you can't fly it anymore.

    This point is null and void. Croatian isn't on unfriendly terms with any country in EU and what happens if they fall out with France? I can't Croatian falling out with anyone who is supplying arms. Mirage 2000 production ended in 2007. So not a great choice. At least if they lease gripen they will get either new or almost new aircraft and gripen is still being produced so very likely more upgrades to follow.

    lol1

    Iran was US best buddy. In one day it became the "evil" side according to US presidents.

    Lybia was also a friend until one day that changed everything.

    Trusting NATO on the long term is stupid.
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    Post  d_taddei2 Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:13 pm

    Isos wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:
    Isos wrote:Grippen is the worst choice because you depend on something like 10 countries for spare parts. Get one angry and you can't fly it anymore.

    This point is null and void. Croatian isn't on unfriendly terms with any country in EU and what happens if they fall out with France? I can't Croatian falling out with anyone who is supplying arms. Mirage 2000 production ended in 2007. So not a great choice. At least if they lease gripen they will get either new or almost new aircraft and gripen is still being produced so very likely more upgrades to follow.

    lol1

    Iran was US best buddy. In one day it became the "evil" side according to US presidents.

    Lybia was also a friend until one day that changed everything.

    Trusting NATO on the long term is stupid.

    Croatia is nothing like Iran or Libya, imagine thinking every country is the same lol!
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    Post  Isos Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:17 pm

    It is. For the US, their is the mainland US and the rest of the world.

    US bombed the former Yugoslavia it was part of.

    They bombed the french back in 1945.

    They are trying to get friendly with Vietnam which they bombed using more bombs than during WW2.

    They bombed most of the south american countries during their CIA sponsored coups.

    They are less trustworthy than a prostitute. They would bomb their moms for their own profit.

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    Post  marcellogo Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:51 pm

    Isos wrote:It is. For the US, their is the mainland US and the rest of the world.

    US bombed the former Yugoslavia it was part of.

    They bombed the french back in 1945.

    They are trying to get friendly with Vietnam which they bombed using more bombs than during WW2.

    They bombed most of the south american countries during their CIA sponsored coups.

    They are less trustworthy than a prostitute. They would bomb their moms for their own profit.
    Off Topic  Off Topic  Off Topic but

    Yes, that's because Croatia trusted France for the supply of fighters, Germany for their howitzers, produce by licence their high end wheeleed APC from Finland and for a lot of the rest, beginning from the Navy, do it for itself.

    From USA has got helicopters and mine resistant vehicles at the price of a penny after their withdrawal fror Iraq but, when cannot do it at home,  it trust the important things to other Eu members.

    About the Rafale deal: it's certanly an ambitious one but it is not something they cannot afford themselves as with this they will reach the sought goal of 2% of GDP in defence spending, get the best plane around, allowing them  not just to balance Serbian purchase of MiG-29 but also to have the most capable one of all the former Hapsbourg countries.
    And doesn't bother with mainteinance or proficency into using them, as they say: Mali smo al'nas ima, srushit' cemo snovi svima. (We are small and we well know it but we definitively ARE, and born to defy the dreams of the bigger ones).
    Don't forget they are Slavs also and of the toughest kin unshaven .
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    Post  Isos Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:57 pm

    Yeah bravery has nothing to do with economy.

    Rafale is very good but expensive and sensitive like most high tech stuff.

    Let's see how they use them but I don't think they will be able to have ready all the time. Most likely 4 jets will survive and the rest will be kept in storage.

    Against Serbia that won't be enough. Even if they are better than the old mig-29, its advanced technology can be negated :

    - Fight in moutainous areas where the rafale has no advantage over the mig.
    - Rafale are juicy targets that can be targeted by suicide drones from inside Croatia by special ops teams.
    - They are based on only two airports. Destroy the runways and they can't take off.
    - expensive guided munitions available in low quantity.
    - Use of low altitude for dumb bombing makes it an easy target for AAA or manpads.

    They will be based in Zadar and Zagreb which are at less than 350km away from serbian borders. 24 kh-35 or kh-59mk2 can be bought and integrated into the mig-29 to destroy them in their hangars.

    Serbia has also the Sumadija guided rockets with 285km range that can target Zagreb airport from within Serbia or Zadar from serbian areas of Bosnia.

    They can also buy russian Iskander with 300km range (could even be 400-500km for serbia). Flight time would be 5 minutes. With russian real time sat images they can coordinate an attack and destroy all of them at once with 12 missiles.

    Croatia doesn't have an air defence to protect them. Serbia has on the opposite buk and pantsir to destroy any croatian missile or guided bombs.

    For that mater Rafale isn't a game changer for them. They could have bought a cheaper plane they would ve in the same situation.

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      Current date/time is Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:03 pm