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    Underwater Drones of the Russian Navy

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat May 16, 2020 11:05 am

    You are right. An unmanned submersible does not need to maintain a low pressure air cavity to sustain humans. It can be fully flooded with seawater and
    can thus dive 11,000 meters below the surface since it cannot be crushed.

    And that raises another issue that I have already mentioned... with no people on board there will be very few air cavities needed on the weapon, so what mechanism is there for an enemy torpedo to destroy this weapon... considering most western torpedos use HEAT warheads to punch through the weak outer shell to burst the egg with water pressure... mainly because Soviet eggs were often double layered so you needed a good swing of the knife to cut through and get to the insides.

    I suspect the only weapons capable of stopping a Poseidon would be of a nuclear nature themselves so attempts to stop it could cause problems too...
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    Post  Arrow on Sat May 16, 2020 11:15 am

    GarryB how they communicate with these drones at such depths. Poseidon is even more difficult. How to communicate with him over a distance of 5000km?
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    Post  GarryB on Sat May 16, 2020 11:43 am

    Why do they need to communicate?

    The Poseidon is not a drone used to locate enemy subs... it is effectively sent to a location and boom... it is more like an underwater cruise missile than a drone.

    Drone models of it could be used for specific roles over much shorter distances and with controlling subs nearby to send and receive information.

    A drone can be anything from a telecontrolled vehicle (ie a human manually drives and operates it), through to what most drones are, where the drone navigates and manouvers itself while the controller uses control to operate sensors and systems on the drone, through to a fully autonomous drone that is launched and completes its mission and then returns on its own.

    To be most useful a drone like an aircraft drone or an underwater drone can transmit in real time what it is detecting... which can be processed in real time and used for fast targeting.

    For instance a drone spots an enemy team setting up artillery rockets, the location information from the drone as well as the laser rangefinder information showing the location of the artillery position could be used immediately to launch a barrage of Grad rockets to that location, or an underwater drone coming across a WWII mine underwater could lead to that area of water being declared dangerous... the drone could release a smoke grenade to highlight the location of the danger so other ships don't sail in to it for instance.

    The problem for drones here is that even when searching for enemy subs or mines you need to stay relatively quiet and not attract attention or the enemy might engage you.

    Anti sub equipment is expensive and valuable and rarely available in enormous volumes so if you detect an enemy anti sub drone or helo or ship on its own it makes sense to try to take it out if you can... preferably before you are detected...
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    Post  Arrow on Sat May 16, 2020 11:57 am

    GarryB wrote:Why do they need to communicate?

    The Poseidon is not a drone used to locate enemy subs... it is effectively sent to a location and boom... it is more like an underwater cruise missile than a drone.

    To possibly change his programmed route, interrupt the mission, etc. How will poseidon know where he is? . The maneuvering missile communicates with GPS has some inertial system and TERCOM. Poseidon can only have a TERCOM equivalent. But he should have at least one-way communication options from some command center to the underwater missile.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat May 16, 2020 12:47 pm

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    Post  RTN on Sat May 16, 2020 1:16 pm

    This is what you are saying today:
    GarryB wrote:Drone models of it could be used for specific roles over much shorter distances and with controlling subs nearby to send and receive information.

    To be most useful a drone like an aircraft drone or an underwater drone can transmit in real time what it is detecting... which can be processed in real time and used for fast targeting.

    For instance a drone spots an enemy team setting up artillery rockets, the location information from the drone as well as the laser rangefinder information showing the location of the artillery position could be used immediately to launch a barrage of Grad rockets to that location, or an underwater drone coming across a WWII mine underwater could lead to that area of water being declared dangerous... the drone could release a smoke grenade to highlight the location of the danger so other ships don't sail in to it for instance.

    But, just yesterday, in another thread this is what you said about drones communicating underwater:

    GarryB wrote:In comparison an array of drones all communicating will be noisy... a few direction finding systems will quickly locate the drones which can be picked off well before they find your subs.

    So how are you ensuring safe, secure communication between underwater drones?
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    Post  GarryB on Sun May 17, 2020 2:34 am

    To possibly change his programmed route, interrupt the mission, etc. How will poseidon know where he is? . The maneuvering missile communicates with GPS has some inertial system and TERCOM. Poseidon can only have a TERCOM equivalent. But he should have at least one-way communication options from some command center to the underwater missile.

    The Poseidon is a dooms day weapon... most of the time when it has been launched WWIII has already started and is under way... all sides launching full scale nuclear attacks on each other... odds are there wont be satellites to send course corrections.

    That is not to say the Poseidon is fixed to a single route... it can be fitted with its own sensors to listen for the active sonars needed to find it and it will know where it is and be able to find its way to its target. Do you have a GPS navigation system in your car? Set a location and start driving and it will calculate an ideal route based on its database of roads and speed limits. If you take a wrong turn it doesn't crash and stop working. It doesn't ask you for help. It recalculates a new route based on your cars current location and the direction it is facing. If you are near a tipping point where there are two or three possible ways of going to get to your location it might pick the fastest or the shortest direct route, but that might be through the heaviest traffic so you might continue to disobey it till it is forced to go another route.

    The GPS system uses satellites to determine the current location of the car. Its maps are used to determine all the possible paths it could take and you enter the destination. With that information it can chart paths for you and rechart new paths if you deviate.

    With Poseidon... it could use passive sonar and its own engine noise to map the terrain it is travelling over... together with inertial guidance that should be accurate enough... basically with a cruise missile intertial guidance over thousands of kms gradually gets less and less accurate over time... but 20 minutes in to the flight if you programme the missile to fly over a specific set of crossroads by a large bridge, then as it flys past it can determine its location... if it was supposed to fly over the bridge but when it arrives the bridge is 500m to its left then it can recalibrate its actual current location based on the location of the bridge... the bridge is at x and y coordinates and we are 500m north or south of it now... our position is now accurate so manouver back on the flight path and continue.

    For an underwater vessel, you could have it follow underwater features and move from feature to feature determining its precise location each time with inertial navigation systems getting it from point to point... a bit like early pilots used to navigate across land masses by flying from land mark to land mark.

    Why would Poseidon not have an inertial navigation system?

    Poseidon is a doomsday weapon it needs to communicate with Moscow like the warhead of an SS-18 needs to... ie it does not.

    A modified Poseidon being used as a drone needs communication, but it wont be on a one way trip... it might be sent out to map the ocean floor around the world so that when it is needed it will have modern current accurate maps to enhance its accuracy. Or it might be used in a role where endurance and speed are important because it should have plenty of both...

    But, just yesterday, in another thread this is what you said about drones communicating underwater:

    That is perfectly consistent... the Poseidon is not really a drone... it is an underwater cruise missile, or ballistic missiles warhead... no need for communication.

    A drone used to hunt submarines however is more like that flying drone looking for terrorists... it uses a camera to look day and night for targets, but that only works if it transmits that video image continuously to the controller, who will be directing where the drone flys to find targets. All the time the drone is operating it is sending data on the video channel showing what the camera is seeing... all the time the drone is operating it is receiving signals from the drone control vehicle or building to tell it which direction to turn the camera and when to zoom in or out and when to change flight path to keep the target in view or to search new areas for targets. That means a datalink communication channel with the drone that is continuous.

    Do it over Syria and you are fine because there is really not much ISIS can do... try to fly drones over the Crimea and their communications will be detected immediately and it will be destroyed.

    A drone underwater has even greater need for communication, because there is an enormous variety of things in and on the water that make all sorts of noise and it is very much a game of cat and mouse... if you have a large number of drones searching an area for subs or torpedoes then to coordinate their actions they need to communicate.... triangulation only works when you have multiple known points detecting signals... plot the points where the detectors are and draw a line in the direction of detection... with three or more points detecting a target those lines should cross somewhere and then you have your target... or a target... but you need to analyse the sound to determine what it is... is it a torpedo in the water... is it elephant seals having sex... is it a spider crab fighting a spider crab for food or for sex... the drones might have a library of sounds, but the enemy also have a library of sounds so they might add noises to their subs to make them sound like something harmless, while launching decoys making all the right noises.

    In a sense ASW already uses enormous numbers of drones... they are called dispensable sonobuoys... but right now they are relatively cheap but not super cheap means of narrowing the location of a target. Using drones instead will probably make them orders of magnitude more expensive, and in doing so make them targets for the enemy to actively hunt to protect their underwater activities...

    The idea of a swarm of underwater drones to kill all the enemy subs is like the idea of a swarm of any drones doing anything... it is bunk.

    So how are you ensuring safe, secure communication between underwater drones?

    Keep their distances apart relatively small... which is the opposite of what you want to do in finding subs or mines, and perhaps have a tethered float bobbing above them on the surface for communication between drones and HQ and controlling vessels.

    For defensive use, where for example you might be looking for mines where there is unlikely to be enemy subs then such drones make sense, but keep in mind small drones means less endurance, speed, and range than a sub or a ship and much smaller sensors.

    A well equipped modern SSN could probably sweep an area much more effectively than a tiny drone, while a properly equipped ship could probably do better as well... and at the same time with the equipment to deal with anything they find... unlike a drone.

    I don't hate drones... they certainly have their place, but they are a long way away from replacing everything just yet.

    Jobs like travelling up and down underwater cables or pipes checking for damage or leaks is an ideal job for a drone for example...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun May 17, 2020 11:31 pm

    They can also investigate underwater slides, earthquakes, volcanoes, assist in the salvage ops & patrol approaches to bases/anchorages against underwater intruders.
    More details on the latest Mariana Trench dive:
    https://rg.ru/2020/05/12/avtonomnyj-vitiaz-d-ispytali-na-dne-marianskoj-vpadiny.html

    http://nvo.ng.ru/realty/2020-05-22/1_1093_ocean.html?print=Y


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri May 22, 2020 5:23 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    Post  dino00 on Wed May 27, 2020 11:04 am

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    Post  Arrow on Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:46 am

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=5CMgBijzm0M&feature=emb_title
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    Post  George1 on Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:45 pm

    Vityaz-D explored Mariana Trench according to preinstalled program — developer


    The deep submersion drone Vityaz was the first-ever crewless vehicle to have reached the deepest point of the world ocean on May 8 at 22:34 Moscow time, according to official data

    MOSCOW, June 10. /TASS/. The deep submergence vehicle Vityaz-D, which explored the bottom of the Mariana Trench a month ago, performed its mission automatically according to a program the operator had installed in advance, the CEO of the Central Design Bureau of Marine Engineering Rubin, Igor Vilnit, told TASS in an interview on Wednesday.

    "First, the operator keys in a task to perform a specific mission. After submersion the vehicle begins independent operation. The data it gathers is transmitted to the operator’s control board via a hydroacoustic channel," Vilnit said.

    The deep submersion drone Vityaz was the first-ever crewless vehicle to have reached the deepest point of the world ocean. It happened on May 8 at 22:34 Moscow time.

    The superdeep submersion vehicle Vityaz-D is capable of exploring the world ocean’s bed at extreme depths. The system consists of the crewless vehicle proper, a bottom grab station and a control and command center.

    Shipborne equipment maintains data exchange between the mother vessel and the bottom grab station via a hydroacoustic channel in the online mode. All components are of Russian manufacture.

    The Vityaz-D vehicle’s artificial intelligence resource enables it to steer clear of obstacles and find a way out of confined spaces.

    https://tass.com/defense/1166477
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    Post  George1 on Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:39 am

    The work of the Central Design Bureau MT Rubin in the field of uninhabited underwater vehicles


    TASS News Agency June 10, 2020 under the heading "The need for underwater robotics is growing." What sea drones are being created in the Russian Federation ?, published an interview with Igor Vilnit, Director General of TsKB MT Rubin JSC (St. Petersburg), on work in the field of uninhabited underwater vehicles.

    Underwater Drones of the Russian Navy - Page 4 81073410
    The complex of autonomous uninhabited underwater vehicles "Klavesin-2R-PM" developed by JSC TsKB MT Rubin :copyright: JSC TsKB MT Rubin


    TASS was told about the development prospects of underwater uninhabited vehicles, their unique capabilities and which devices will soon conquer the seas and oceans at the Central Design Bureau MT Rubin, one of the world leaders in the design of submarines and the leading design bureau of underwater shipbuilding in Russia.

    The first robot to reach the deepest point of the World Ocean, the bottom of the Mariana Trench in the Pacific, on May 9, 2020, was the Russian autonomous uninhabited underwater vehicle (ANPA) Vityaz-D. The depth of immersion was 10,028 m.

    He became the fifth of the devices that ever reached the "bottom of the Earth." But, unlike the Kaiko (Japan) complexes that worked in this area in 1995 and Nereus (USA) in 2009, ours functioned completely autonomously.

    Russian Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov has already called this event an outstanding achievement of the Russian defense industry and science, stressing that "a new research and development elite of the defense industry complex will grow on the implementation of just such projects." The Vityaz deep-sea UAV was created by the Rubin Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering (TsKB MT) (as part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation) in conjunction with the Advanced Research Foundation (FPI).

    "The market for underwater vehicles is actively developing"

    Large-scale work in the field of creating marine robotic complexes and systems for various purposes has been carried out by Rubin in the interests of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation since the beginning of the 1990s. A fundamental feature of the functioning of such technical means is the ability to solve tasks in extremely aggressive conditions of the marine environment in the entire range of depths of the World Ocean in all its regions - from the southernmost latitudes to the North Pole.

    “At present, Rubin is working on the creation of robotic systems based on light AUVs - Juno and Amulet. A major step in the bureau’s activities was the deployment in 2013 of the creation of a promising AUVA complex of the Klavaysin-2R-PM project . Complexes of heavy and superheavy AUVs are being developed that are designed to solve a number of complex complex tasks of both research and defense applications, "said Igor Vilnit, Director General of the Rubin Central Design Bureau in an interview with TASS.

    The competencies of the enterprise in this area are constantly expanding, he assured. The great scientific potential and accumulated practical experience of the team allow us to offer innovative, high-tech design and production solutions for creating uninhabited deep-sea equipment.

    According to Vilnit, the main directions in the creation of underwater robotics are to increase the autonomy of vehicles, the development and further improvement of automatic control algorithms using artificial intelligence elements, the development and production of the necessary materials, devices, and components capable of working at great depths.

    “As for the serial production of AUVs, this question is more likely for potential customers of underwater equipment. In many industries, various underwater vehicles are currently used, the need for underwater robotics is increasing,” said Igor Vilnit.

    Underwater vehicles "Juno" and "Amulet" were repeatedly shown at the Naval Salon in St. Petersburg, the military-technical forum "Army" and other specialized exhibitions. According to Vilnit, they aroused the genuine interest of various organizations and departments both for carrying out research and practical applications when conducting inspection work for underwater pipelines, communications and underwater structures.

    “Given the price / quality ratio of the underwater vehicles produced by TsKB MT Rubin, as well as the presence of a number of unique technical features, I think that our AUVs are quite competitive in the foreign market,” he said.

    The market for underwater vehicles is now developing mainly due to the offer of imported remote-controlled vehicles, Vilnit believes. According to him, the advantage of Rubin is that they are offered devices of their own production, created mainly using domestic components and materials. The head of the enterprise calls another important advantage of the Rubin Central Design Bureau - design and manufacture of not just autonomous or telecontrolled devices, but the creation of marine robotic systems (RTOs), which include uninhabited devices, communication and control equipment, delivery and basing facilities, and simulators and training tools for operating personnel.

    “When creating marine robotic systems, various methods and devices for the interaction of vehicles with various types of carriers of both underwater and surface class are also being developed. Considering that most of the work on creating mine action systems is carried out on the instructions of the Ministry of Defense, of course, the details of the ROC data are not for wide publication, ”says Igor Vilnit.

    However, it is known that a robot is being created that can simulate any submarine. The Rubin developed a concept project for the Surrogate marine robotic complex. As TASS previously reported, the modular design will allow changing its functionality - it can simulate both a nuclear and nuclear submarine, as well as conduct terrain mapping and reconnaissance.

    “At present, the Surrogat R&D carried out by us on an initiative basis has been completed. The results of this work have been brought to the attention of relevant organizations of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, consultations are ongoing,” Vilnit noted.

    To develop the Arctic shelf, the Iceberg project was created. "It has been fully completed and accepted by the customer - FPI. The further implementation of the project is currently being carried out in two main areas, which are identified as priority. The first is the creation of a full-scale prototype of an underwater complex of robotic seismic exploration based on the use of a group of seismic-recording AUVs and AUV-emitter of seismic "The second is the creation of a prototype demonstrator of an underwater robotic drilling module," Vilnit says. "The work is carried out as part of the innovative development program of the Central Design Bureau MT Rubin, in coordination with USC. Work in other areas will be organized later, after identifying funding sources."

    See the "bottom of the earth"

    In May of this year, another unique Rubin robot became known - the Vityaz-D drone, which became the first fully autonomous uninhabited underwater vehicle in the world to reach the deepest point in the oceans. Work on its creation began in 2017.

    According to the developers, the complex includes an autonomous uninhabited underwater vehicle (AUV) and a sonar bottom station (GDS). The main tactical and technical characteristics of ANPA SGP (super-deep dives): length - 5.7 m; diameter - 1.4 m; weight - 5600 kg; the maximum immersion depth is 12,000 m. The GDS has similar technical characteristics.

    The ANPA SPS “Vityaz-D” complex is designed to perform surveying and research tasks in the bottom layer and on the ground of the World Ocean in the entire depth range (up to 12,000 m) and to develop technologies for creating promising complexes of uninhabited underwater vehicles for operating in extreme conditions depths of immersion.

    "One of the most important tasks of the complex is also the development of technologies for the manufacture and operation of complex robotic systems at extreme depths," says Vilnit.

    “The main difficulties in creating the complex were related to ensuring the operability of devices and mechanisms under the influence of huge hydrostatic pressure,” says the head of the enterprise. “Therefore, when creating elements of hull structures, strong containers for placing equipment, systems and devices, the entire scientific and technical potential of the Central Design Bureau MT Rubin, the entire experience of creating habitable underwater equipment, as well as leading scientific organizations of the industry. "

    “When designing and manufacturing, the specialists of our company widely used the most advanced methods of 3D modeling, calculating finite element models, conducted a large number of experiments to confirm the operability of the equipment and the strength of structural elements when exposed to maximum hydrostatic pressure,” says Igor Vilnit.


    The development of the documentation was carried out according to the “paperless” technology, and the manufacture of components was carried out on numerically controlled machines (automated robotic machines that can perform operations on a given program without the direct involvement of a person, - note TASS), he adds.

    Rubin notes that such autonomous devices operate using an on-board control system that implements control algorithms without human intervention. “In preparation for work, the operator enters the task program for the implementation of a specific mission, after which the device sinks into the water and begins to operate autonomously under the program. At the same time, it transfers various information to the operator’s console via the sonar communication channel,” explains the head of Rubin.

    During the ANA tests, the control panels are staff of the Central Design Bureau MT "Rubin" and enterprises - the developer of the control system. “To train operators in operating organizations, our company offers the creation of integrated simulators that provide operators with sustainable practical management skills and a large amount of theoretical knowledge for operating AUVs,” says Vilnit.

    About the future of underwater robotics

    According to the head of the Rubin Central Design Bureau, in the near future there will be a deep integration of robotic means with various classes of carriers - submarines, surface ships providing ships.

    "The performance of work using manned technical means - underwater vehicles, especially in deep-sea areas, in the water column and on the bottom of the oceans is inextricably linked with the risk to the life of the operating personnel. The use of robotic systems based on autonomous and remote-controlled underwater vehicles allows you to remove a person from the zone increased risk and provide a more complete and comprehensive picture of the current situation for the effective completion of the task, "he says.

    The scientific and technological groundwork at Rubin and the wide experience of practical activity, according to Vilnit, make it possible to offer potential customers the creation of promising high-tech robotic complexes based on heterogeneous uninhabited vehicles.

    "In the long run, the bureau specialists have outlined the creation of a global network consisting of a large number of underwater deep-sea vehicles, light-class AUVs, gliders, underwater lighting equipment, UAVs, communications equipment and other components providing for large-scale scientific and research missions," he says .

    "The main vectors of the development of underwater robotics now are to increase the autonomy of ANPA swimming, increase the range and accuracy of positioning underwater, as well as further improve algorithms and control principles based on network algorithms, integrate heterogeneous technical and communications equipment into a single complex," said Igor Vilnit .

    "The application of network principles for creating complex robotic complexes, modern and promising technical solutions, new programming methods and algorithms will allow in the future to create systems that provide navigation, communication and control of heterogeneous robotic complexes operating in the depths of the oceans, in the open sea and in the airspace, “The Rubin general director Vilnit says at the end of the conversation.“ This will allow the creation of unified control centers for uninhabited underwater, surface and air vehicles, and provide the relevant organizations and departments with complete navigation and technical information in real time. ”

    Underwater Drones of the Russian Navy - Page 4 Model_10
    Model of the underwater vehicle "Juno" :copyright: Ladislav Karpov / TASS

    Underwater Drones of the Russian Navy - Page 4 81081610
    ANPA "Vityaz-D" after sinking to the bottom of the Mariana Trench in the Pacific :copyright: Press Service of the Advanced Research Foundation

    Underwater Drones of the Russian Navy - Page 4 81083710
    ANPA Vityaz-D on the deck of the Pacific Fleet rescue ship Fotiy Krylov :copyright: Press Service of the Advanced Research Foundation

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4054787.html
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    Post  Arrow on Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:22 pm

    Interesting how underwater INS works?
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:30 am

    The issue is what jobs are they doing... if they are just mapping the sea bed then you can write a programme that includes a bit of AI and send a drone down to do that and it can pretty much get on with that itself... it is effectively a case of it using sonar to range distances to underwater features and determine their size and shape and extent and to transmit that data up to the mothership. It doesn't need to be remotely manouvered around the place... it will basically swim in patterns to determine the shape of the sea bed in that area on its own.

    If instead you are trying to hunt a manned submarine operated by a human who knows what they are doing then your AI needs to be much smarter... and you need a lot more two way communication which might lead to the sub you are hunting sinking your mothership because it is continuously revealing its position with that communication.
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    Post  Arrow on Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:41 am

    GarryB So how will Poseidon work? Will he have seabed maps uploaded to his computer and compare them with his own sonar scan etc. and after that he will know where and where to go. Will he have any other navigation systems. Underwater INS magnetic geolocation? Will he be able to communicate with any command center? Communication and geolocation under water is very difficult. Another thing is the maneuvering missile is much easier to navigate
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:29 am


    Vityaz UUV dive in Mariana Trench

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