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    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:47 am

    Benya wrote:Kurganets and Boomerang will get a new heart


    Russia's Kurganets-25 and Bumerang infantry fighting vehicles to get new diesel engines

    The newest Kurganets-25 and Bumerang (Boomerang) infantry fighting vehicles (IFV) developed by the Tractor Plants Concern and the Military Industrial Company, respectively will get new diesel engines, according to a source in the Russian defense industry.

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2 - Page 14 Russia_Kurganets_25_and_Bumerang_infantry_fighting_vehicles_to_get_new_diesel_engines_640_001
    A K-17 Bumerang armored infantry fighting vehicle
    (Credit: Vitaly V. Kuzmin)

    "The YaMZ-780 diesel engine developed by the Yaroslavl Motor-Building Plant [a subsidiary of the GAZ Group] has already been installed on the Kurganets-25 IFV. At present, the updated vehicle is successfully passing the relevant trials. We have tested YaMZ-780 at the test rig, and the engine has confirmed its highest performance. The maneuver capabilities of the Kurganets-25 IFVs will be increased in a drastic manner," the source said. He did not specify the terms of the works. The BMP-2 and BMP-3 IFVs are powered by UTD20S1 (300 h.p.) and UTD29 (500 h.p.) diesel engines, he reminded.

    The source added that the original power output of the YaMZ-780 engine (1,000 h.p.) had been intentionally reduced in order to meet the terms of reference issued by the Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD). "The Yaroslavl Motor-Building Plant has reduced the YaMZ-780 power output upon the MoD`s requests. It can be increased to 900-1,100 h.p. any day of the week. We have integrated a backup control system, a backup air start system, and a preheater with the motor in order to shore up its reliability," the source said.

    The YaMZ-780 6-cylinder diesel engine was unveiled at the Army 2016 military-technical forum held outside Moscow in September 2016. According to the official specifications provided by the Yaroslavl Motor-Building Plant, it has a liter capacity of 12.6 l, a rated power output of 750 h.p., a rated engine speed of 2,300 rpm, a maximum torque of 260 kgf/m, a speed at maximum torque of 1,600 rpm, a specific fuel consumption of 165 g/hr/h.p., a base weight of 1,050 kg, a length of 1,274 mm, a width of 850 mm, a height of 1,334 mm, and a service life of 2,500 hours. The YaMZ-780 diesel engine is intended for cross-country vehicles.

    Source: Arrow http://www.armyrecognition.com/september_2016_global_defense_security_news_industry/russia_s_kurganets-25_and_bumerang_infantry_fighting_vehicles_to_get_new_diesel_engines_22009163_tass.html



    Nothing special, the Russians are just keeping the tradition. Back in World War 2, the Russian tanks used diesel engines, while the Germans were used petrol engines, and the Russian ones were more fuel efficient than the German "gas-guzzling monsters". Of course, we are talking about APC/IFV engines, and western adversaries are using diesel engines too. BTW it is nice to see some technical parameters.

    For a medium weight AFV to potentially get a 1,100 horse power diesel engine is pretty staggering! Let's put this in to perspective: T-90/1000 HP engine, and T-90MS/1130 HP engine. The question remains, is all that HP needed?
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    Post  kvs on Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:58 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Benya wrote:Kurganets and Boomerang will get a new heart


    Russia's Kurganets-25 and Bumerang infantry fighting vehicles to get new diesel engines

    The newest Kurganets-25 and Bumerang (Boomerang) infantry fighting vehicles (IFV) developed by the Tractor Plants Concern and the Military Industrial Company, respectively will get new diesel engines, according to a source in the Russian defense industry.

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2 - Page 14 Russia_Kurganets_25_and_Bumerang_infantry_fighting_vehicles_to_get_new_diesel_engines_640_001
    A K-17 Bumerang armored infantry fighting vehicle
    (Credit: Vitaly V. Kuzmin)

    "The YaMZ-780 diesel engine developed by the Yaroslavl Motor-Building Plant [a subsidiary of the GAZ Group] has already been installed on the Kurganets-25 IFV. At present, the updated vehicle is successfully passing the relevant trials. We have tested YaMZ-780 at the test rig, and the engine has confirmed its highest performance. The maneuver capabilities of the Kurganets-25 IFVs will be increased in a drastic manner," the source said. He did not specify the terms of the works. The BMP-2 and BMP-3 IFVs are powered by UTD20S1 (300 h.p.) and UTD29 (500 h.p.) diesel engines, he reminded.

    The source added that the original power output of the YaMZ-780 engine (1,000 h.p.) had been intentionally reduced in order to meet the terms of reference issued by the Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD). "The Yaroslavl Motor-Building Plant has reduced the YaMZ-780 power output upon the MoD`s requests. It can be increased to 900-1,100 h.p. any day of the week. We have integrated a backup control system, a backup air start system, and a preheater with the motor in order to shore up its reliability," the source said.

    The YaMZ-780 6-cylinder diesel engine was unveiled at the Army 2016 military-technical forum held outside Moscow in September 2016. According to the official specifications provided by the Yaroslavl Motor-Building Plant, it has a liter capacity of 12.6 l, a rated power output of 750 h.p., a rated engine speed of 2,300 rpm, a maximum torque of 260 kgf/m, a speed at maximum torque of 1,600 rpm, a specific fuel consumption of 165 g/hr/h.p., a base weight of 1,050 kg, a length of 1,274 mm, a width of 850 mm, a height of 1,334 mm, and a service life of 2,500 hours. The YaMZ-780 diesel engine is intended for cross-country vehicles.

    Source: Arrow http://www.armyrecognition.com/september_2016_global_defense_security_news_industry/russia_s_kurganets-25_and_bumerang_infantry_fighting_vehicles_to_get_new_diesel_engines_22009163_tass.html



    Nothing special, the Russians are just keeping the tradition. Back in World War 2, the Russian tanks used diesel engines, while the Germans were used petrol engines, and the Russian ones were more fuel efficient than the German "gas-guzzling monsters". Of course, we are talking about APC/IFV engines, and western adversaries are using diesel engines too. BTW it is nice to see some technical parameters.

    For a medium weight AFV to potentially get a 1,100 horse power diesel engine is pretty staggering! Let's put this in to perspective: T-90/1000 HP engine, and T-90MS/1130 HP engine. The question remains, is all that HP needed?

    I think off road it is needed. The thing is not all that light compared to a car. I wouldn't call a 110 hp engine impressive on a 2.5 ton car.

    Spare horsepower do not hurt. I think the concept of using a small engine to save fuel is BS. They should turn off cylinders to
    save fuel instead of shrinking the engine at the expense of utility.
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    Post  Werewolf on Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:40 am

    KVS got a point. No expert on engines but is that common technology to cut cylinders when needed to safe fuel?
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    Post  wilhelm on Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:16 pm

    Nice. So it is a powerful engine, that has been "governed" or depowered for normal use, but with the option of rapidly getting its full power when needed.
    In peacetime, the lesser power will mean less wear-and-tear and lower maintenance and fuel consumtion.
    At full power, when needed, that is a lot of power on tap for a vehicle of that weight. thumbsup
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:33 pm

    The Kurganets and Boomerang are vehicle families and over time added weight often reduces performance.

    Having a derated engine improves engine life and often reduces fuel consumption, but also allows growth potential for future weight increases.

    As long as the transmissions can take the extra power then there should be several benefits to using derated engines... including being able to use the same engine for vehicles in different weight classes, and also allowing longer term use of what is basically the same engine in a larger number of vehicle platforms.

    Certainly this engine would also be useful in a heavy prime mover truck as well... and I would think a light aircraft could probably use it too.
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    Post  hoom on Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:59 pm

    Hmm, originally quoted using 500hp.
    Does this mean its overweight -> needs more power, or is it just a bit of standardisation with Kurganets (originally quoted 800hp)?

    Spare horsepower do not hurt
    Potentially does. Running a more powerful engine at reduced power may not be as efficient as a smaller one at designed power -> could hurt range/runtime, or if the drivetrain wasn't designed for that kind of power it could hurt reliability (has happened to a bunch of historical vehicles).
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    Post  Guest on Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:50 pm

    Werewolf wrote:KVS got a point. No expert on engines but is that common technology to cut cylinders when needed to safe fuel?

    It is, but from what i am aware as of now it has been used only on commercial vehicles aka.. cars.

    Active Fuel Management is the system GM uses for Chevrolet and Cadillac.

    Technology itself is most often refered to as "variable displacement managament".

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    Post  kvs on Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:04 am

    Militarov wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:KVS got a point. No expert on engines but is that common technology to cut cylinders when needed to safe fuel?

    It is, but from what i am aware as of now it has been used only on commercial vehicles aka.. cars.

    Active Fuel Management is the system GM uses for Chevrolet and Cadillac.

    Technology itself is most often refered to as "variable displacement managament".


    I admit it is not the ultimate fuel saving since energy is wasted moving "dead" pistons. But these days pistons are made out of aluminum to reduce
    such losses.

    Another approach would be to use two 4 cylinder diesels to drive an electric motor or motors. One of these engines could be
    turned off to save 50% of the fuel when not needed. Electric motors have spectacular torque characteristics what is needed for
    off road. They use electric drive on the large mobile ICBM trucks.
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    Post  hoom on Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:13 pm

    robognus wrote:
    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2 - Page 14 Aa290b39f232b3c12f0ebb12cae3eb62
    I like that they are working on a more standardised side armor module.
    The Victory Day parade version looked like a bit of a logistical nightmare.

    Also I don't think its been mentioned around here but apparently the Victory Day parade versions had some kind of temporary engine mounted not where it's supposed to be.
    The newer ones that have shown up in some pics/vids have them in the correct places.
    On Victory Day parade the driver is just ahead of the turret in the center, with engine vents forward & left where the driver was supposed to be.
    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2 - Page 14 A46a2d0760ee75851991b245a6ab793c
    vs the 'Military Acceptance' vid where driver is forward & left where he should be.
    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2 - Page 14 INta6TX
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:54 pm

    hoom wrote:
    robognus wrote:
    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2 - Page 14 Aa290b39f232b3c12f0ebb12cae3eb62
    I like that they are working on a more standardised side armor module.
    The Victory Day parade version looked like a bit of a logistical nightmare.

    Also I don't think its been mentioned around here but apparently the Victory Day parade versions had some kind of temporary engine mounted not where it's supposed to be.
    The newer ones that have shown up in some pics/vids have them in the correct places.
    On Victory Day parade the driver is just ahead of the turret in the center, with engine vents forward & left where the driver was supposed to be.
    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2 - Page 14 A46a2d0760ee75851991b245a6ab793c
    vs the 'Military Acceptance' vid where driver is forward & left where he should be.
    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2 - Page 14 INta6TX

    Keep in mind they both have completely different turrets, and the Military Acceptance version has a much bigger armament in comparison, and thus will have a much larger turret ring, meaning the crew openings will likely need to be moved forward.
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    Post  zg18 on Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:45 am

    New video

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    Post  Benya on Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:10 am

    First pictures of the Kurganets-25 BREM armored recovery variant of the Kurganets-25 family.

    A video from a Russian Auto magazine releases first images of the Kurganets-25 BREM, the armoured recovery vehicle variant of the Kurganets-25 family. It looks similar to the Kurganets-25 BTR and BMP in appearance but with some specific features to repair or evacuate damaged vehicles.

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2 - Page 14 Kurganets-25_BREM_ARV_variant_armoured_recovery_vehicle_Russia_Russian_army_defense_industry_military_equipment_640_001
    Print Screen video footage of Russian auto magazine showing Kurganets-25 BREM armoured recovery vehicle.

    The standard turret of the Kurganets-25 BTR and BMP has been replaced without the missile and the active protection system but the vehicle uses the same the same unmanned fighting module armed with a 12.7 mm machinegun. There is six smoke grenade dischargers at teh front of the turret.

    The upper part of the hull is modified to accommodate a swivelling jib crane mounted to the right side of the vehicle. It is also fitted with a towing winch and extra armored containers for tools and spares. Using the winch and cables, the Kurganets-25 BREM will tow damaged vehicles, while the crane will be used by its crew in replacing damaged units with brand-new ones carried on board.

    A large dozer blade is mounted at the front of the hull.

    According the manufacturer, the Kurganetsd-25 BREM is superior to its predecessors, the BMP-3 recovery vehicle BREM-L, in terms of a higher lifting capacity of its crane and a higher pull of its winch.

    The Kurganets-25 BREM uses same components of the Kurganets-25 BTR and BMP for the suspension and power pack. It has also the same level of protection with passive armour on each side of the hull.

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2 - Page 14 Kurganets-25_BREM_ARV_variant_armoured_recovery_vehicle_Russia_Russian_army_defense_industry_military_equipment_001

    Source: Arrow http://www.armyrecognition.com/weapons_defence_industry_military_technology_uk/first_pictures_of_the_kurganets-25_brem_armored_recovery_variant_of_the_kurganets-25_family_12012165.html



    Nice thumbsup

    However, maybe its just me, but I don't like those ERA bricks, they are ruining the sleek lines of the vehicle. I know that this is an ARV, and there are no sensors for any APS, like on the IFV model, and those were additional armor blocks, not ERA bricks, but I think that those (ERA bricks) should be somehow integrated into the add-on armor blocks on the "main combat" (APC, IFV, ARV, SHORAD) models of the Kurganets vehicle family.

    It should look like this, but without the "Boomerang-BM" combat module and without the "Afghanit" APS.
    robognus wrote:Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2 - Page 14 INta6TX
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    Post  0nillie0 on Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:21 am

    The add-on armor modules as seen on the IFV seem to have a much larger surface area and most of them do not appear to be interchangeable with each other, as there are varying shapes and sizes. Al tough they look better on the vehicle, from a logistical point of view, this option is far less attractive than the modules we see on the recovery variant. The small blocks are likely lower in weight and therefor easier to handle, transport and replace in the field. The blocks all seem to be of the same shape and size, and are therefor likely interchangeable.

    The main issue with the ERA bricks as seen on the recovery variant is that they can possibly reduce the mobility of the vehicle, although the same can be argued for the add-on armor seen on the IFV. The era bricks do have reduced coverage when compared to the add-on armor modules.

    Another factor is multi-hit capability, which may be why the IFV modules are larger in the first place : The ability to take multiple hits means that in the field replacement is not as much of a factor to consider.

    I think we will see a number of varying designs in the years to come. Large scale adoption of a single uniform kit is highly unlikely.

    Unless the add-on armor is essential for keeping the vehicle afloat off course. But i think a basic add-on flotation kit will be designed for this in the future.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:56 pm

    Oui I hope that was crew error to miss at such range while taking so long to aim.
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    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:35 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Oui I hope that was crew error to miss at such range while taking so long to aim.

    What miss?
    All I see in that 3 second clip is the Boomerang firing a Kornet ATGM. Nothing more nothing less.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:57 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Oui I hope that was crew error to miss at such range while taking so long to aim.

    What miss?
    All I see in that 3 second clip is the Boomerang firing a Kornet ATGM. Nothing more nothing less.

    I assume it was trying to hit that Gun next to it?. The gray one you can see in the clip.

    Perhaps I am wrong.
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    Post  KoTeMoRe on Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:25 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Oui I hope that was crew error to miss at such range while taking so long to aim.

    What miss?
    All I see in that 3 second clip is the Boomerang firing a Kornet ATGM. Nothing more nothing less.

    I assume it was trying to hit that Gun next to it?. The gray one you can see in the clip.

    Perhaps I am wrong.
    With Atgm? £¤£.
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    Post  Benya on Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:45 pm

    Russia’s Bumerang armored personnel carrier to have wheeled IFVs’ firepower

    Russia’s K-17 Bumerang armored personnel carrier (APC) will be on a par with wheeled infantry fighting vehicles (IFVs) in terms of firepower, Russian Army Commander-in-Chief Colonel-General Oleg Salyukov said in an interview with RIA Novosti news agency.

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2 - Page 14 Russia_s_Bumerang_armored_personnel_carrier_to_have_wheeled_IFVs__firepower_640_001
    The K-17 Bumerang APC (Photo V. Kuzmin)

    The K-17 Bumerang APC is being developed for Russia’s Army, he added.

    "In addition to the upgraded BTR-82AM armored personnel carrier, we are developing the advanced K-17 Bumerang APC with a big number of cutting-edge solutions and technologies," Salyukov said.

    "The K-17 Bumerang armored personnel carrier can be regarded as a wheeled infantry fighting vehicle in terms of firepower," he added.

    The Bumerang armored personnel carrier is an amphibious vehicle designed to replace its predecessors, the old BTR family used by the Russian armed forces. During the International exhibition of arms and military equipment RAE 2013 in Nizhny Tagil, the project of the vehicle was showed only for the Prime Minister of Russia. The first prototype of the Bumerang was delivered in 2013. According to Sputnik News, large production of the Boomerang started in 2015, to replace the BTR-82A and BTR-80 APCs currently in service with the Russian army, with a total of for 2,000 vehicles, in various configurations.

    The armored personnel carrier was unveiled at the Victory Day Parade on May 9, 2015. It is expected to be made operational in 2017. There are two variants of the Bumerang vehicle, the K-16 APC and K-17 IFV.

    Source: Arrow http://www.armyrecognition.com/january_2017_global_defense_security_army_news_industry/russias_bumerang_armored_personnel_carrier_to_have_wheeled_ifvs_firepower_51301172.html



    Great, but not really fresh news. I'm looking forward to see the mortar carrier and SPAAG variant to be unveiled this year (at least one of them) , but I think that a command vehicle, signal vehicle, ARV and/or MEDEVAC vehicle (one of them for sure) could be also built and tested.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:34 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Oui I hope that was crew error to miss at such range while taking so long to aim.

    What miss?
    All I see in that 3 second clip is the Boomerang firing a Kornet ATGM. Nothing more nothing less.

    I assume it was trying to hit that Gun next to it?. The gray one you can see in the clip.

    Perhaps I am wrong.
    With Atgm? £¤£.

    I've seen weirder things in the field.
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    Post  Guest on Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:35 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Oui I hope that was crew error to miss at such range while taking so long to aim.

    What miss?
    All I see in that 3 second clip is the Boomerang firing a Kornet ATGM. Nothing more nothing less.

    I assume it was trying to hit that Gun next to it?. The gray one you can see in the clip.

    Perhaps I am wrong.

    You are for sure Smile That gun seems to be there as some sort of monument
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:13 am

    Is there any info if the Kurganets will mount the 45mm autocannon? Also why doesnt the proposed 57mm turret have ATGM mountings?

    And finally what was the reason to change the designation to both the kurganets and boomerang families to 'K'? Why not just continue the designations BTR(BK(колесах)TR for wheeled boomerang) and BMP?
    The new designations are awefully ambiguous and noncontinuous. I hope Russia isnt going down the US path where every weapon is named M(insert random number here).
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    Post  ult on Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:45 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Oui I hope that was crew error to miss at such range while taking so long to aim.

    What miss?
    All I see in that 3 second clip is the Boomerang firing a Kornet ATGM. Nothing more nothing less.

    I assume it was trying to hit that Gun next to it?. The gray one you can see in the clip.

    Perhaps I am wrong.

    I haven't laughed that hard in a week. How could anyone think of that? Laughing
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:50 am

    I assume it was trying to hit that Gun next to it?. The gray one you can see in the clip.

    Perhaps I am wrong.

    That gun is about 30 degrees off the point of aim... if it was trying to hit that (BTW a 10km range missile would be a totally inappropriate weapon to use against such a target at such a short range) it would have at least be pointed at it.

    The Kornet is supersonic... only an R-73 with vectored thrust could turn 30 degrees on launch and hit such a target.

    Russia’s K-17 Bumerang armored personnel carrier (APC) will be on a par with wheeled infantry fighting vehicles (IFVs) in terms of firepower, Russian Army Commander-in-Chief Colonel-General Oleg Salyukov said in an interview with RIA Novosti news agency.

    They will have the same turret, so that is a given.

    Is there any info if the Kurganets will mount the 45mm autocannon? Also why doesnt the proposed 57mm turret have ATGM mountings?

    AFAIK the 45mm gun lost so wont be introduced into service.

    Also AFAIK the 57mm gun turrets seen so far are prototypes... the final turrets likely will have ATGMs and also probably automatic grenade launchers of 30mm, 40mm, or 57mm calibre.

    And finally what was the reason to change the designation to both the kurganets and boomerang families to 'K'? Why not just continue the designations BTR(BK(колесах)TR for wheeled boomerang) and BMP?

    AFAIK the K means not operational... just like K-77 for the R-77 before it entered service.

    The new designations are awefully ambiguous and noncontinuous. I hope Russia isnt going down the US path where every weapon is named M(insert random number here).

    Based on the Armata designation of T-14 and T-15, I would suspect BMP-14 and BMP-15 for Kurganets and BTR-14 and BTR-15 for Boomerang... which would mean BRDM-14 and BRDM-15 for Typhoon.

    The alternative is another letter for medium tracked and medium wheeled vehicles and light wheeled vehicles.

    KomissarBojanchev
    KomissarBojanchev

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    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:46 am

    Why can't armata MBT be named T-97, KURGANETS IFV be named BMP-4 and bumerang be named BTR-100(for kord equipped AFV, BTR=101 for 30mm equipped, BTR-103 for 57mm equiped BTR)?
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:50 am

    I really hope grenade launchers on the kurganets will be next gen 40-57mm AGLs. There is no reason for a next gen AFV to have AGLs designed in the 70s. Please give confirmation for the 40mm balkan AGL or 57mm syste to be installed on all 5th gen BTR and IFV  families.

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