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    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    zg18
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    Post  zg18 Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:29 am

    Hi-res

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2 - Page 8 ZzHuT8X
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:33 am

    A model of the Kurganets-25 recovery vehicle:

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2 - Page 8 DSC_0384
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    Post  Vann7 Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:29 pm


    does have been said how much is the armor protection of Boomerang frontal and sides?

    can it sustain 30mm gun attacks on all sides?
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    Post  ult Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:44 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    does have been said how much is the armor protection of Boomerang frontal and sides?

    can it sustain 30mm gun attacks on all sides?

    Yeah, and they've shown all of the weak spots too!
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    Post  Vann7 Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:50 pm

    ult wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:
    does have been said how much is the armor protection of Boomerang frontal and sides?

    can it sustain 30mm gun attacks on all sides?

    Yeah, and they've shown all of the weak spots too!

    Does the Armata builder have made available official information of Boomerang protection?
    any link ?
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:49 pm

    zg18 wrote:Hi-res


    I wonder in era of digital cameras - driver´s head still over the hatch?  should not be better view on display with view all-around and form turret height?
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    Post  Neutrality Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:14 pm

    We've seen alot about the T-14 and the Kurganets. Why aren't we getting anything on the Boomerang yet? Personally, I'm more interested in that beast than the Kurganets.
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    Post  Guest Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:17 pm

    Neutrality wrote:We've seen alot about the T-14 and the Kurganets. Why aren't we getting anything on the Boomerang yet? Personally, I'm more interested in that beast than the Kurganets.

    Probably it will end up in this show soon, tho they also might have pushed Armata and K25 abit more ahead in terms of pre production batches, BTR82As are coming still into service in decent numbers while they havent really bought significant number of tanks or IFVs in decade or even more. Gief them some time Smile
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:59 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    zg18 wrote:Hi-res


    I wonder in era of digital cameras - driver´s head still over the hatch?  should not be better view on display with view all-around and form turret height?

    Eyeball mk.1 still safest optical system.
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    Post  Ranxerox71 Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:47 pm

    I see that some kind of arguing was take on sighting capability's of Kurganec etc, First that we clear one for all, All what is need is look at quality of IR,Night Zooming etc kind of image processing which for example have in all others thing failed Project called F35,Really people no body can denial that Russian taking huge step forward into making new and fully modernized Armored vehicle, but quality of Image processing isn't yet on the quality which provide Western manufacturers, I will said that Russians probably will be on the same level for 5 years,But Russians obviously in this moment have one quality which west is lost during the years, it's called extremely serious taking every feedback from people which do testing and "torturing" of new machinery,and also final user of those same machines, and they take that whit full dedication to make needed adjustment, when Putin was asking those VDV commander after Center 2015,what he think about Armored vehicle for VDV weapons systems, he was on first place mention needs for better Image processing, Night and IR, which will have simply better performance, to see further and faster, Putin was said that his comments is most valuable , because he talks like somebody which will used those machine in war if will needed and that he (putin) know for that problem which is induced one half whit long time almost total stagnation in scientific and engineering work for the army, and other half that some agreements which was signed , about licenced manufacturing western solution , because of sanction is non valid anymore, but that several Russian company which was specialised for particular systems working 24/7 on solution which actually need to erased need for any kind of import or licenced manufacturing of those particular systems, next thing is That many of you forgot one simple fact, all those new Armor, need to pass "torture" which would not started yet in full swing ,and at list will endure one year, just after that, those vehicles will get final shape and adjustment of many smaller systems and electronic.Proof that feed back from actual users of weapon systems wasn't taken lightly is brand new Image system for Ka52 helicopter, Pilots was simply wasn't satisfy whit old one. And First testing of new Image targeting pods was get Marine version(how new image processing pods look like can be seen on photos from maks 2015) But All new Ka52 will get it those new image targeting pods.I think that is extremely good thing in process of modernization of Russian Army, Especially engineers and constructors not wait for years to made those change.
    Greetings
    P.S
    I think that KRET corporation is one of the most promising Russian corporation which produce various brand new systems(much faster then any body was expect)exactly in the field of electronic(Radars, Jamming system, Avionics, and opto electronic and image targeting and processing systems), because of that i do not have any doubt that all those new Machines until come into full operational use, will get fully satisfying various image targeting and processing systems.
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    Post  Werewolf Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:30 pm

    Had to smile on this one...

    Which non russian tank has image processing build in their TIS?

    AFAIK, there isn't a single tank of western that uses image processing, the americans are stuck with their image filteration of two sepctrums to highlight objects in predetermined and prerendered IR spectrum to show up aka BHOT and WHOT, no image processing there. The Leopard 2 has neither image processing, do not know about Leclerc, they have been the among the best when it comes to FLIR/TIS but no info on Leclerc the only tank i can imagine that has image processing that would be Merkawa other than that there is no tank with that technology, hell there is only so far one non russian attack helicopter that has image processing that is the AH-1Z Viper and next one is ARH-129 italian modified with Hoplite 3 FLIR of Rafael.

    The T-14 and even the T-90MS catapult themselfs out of any comparision capability for their FCS and image processing, because they have no rivals in that regard.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:36 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Had to smile on this one...

    Which non russian tank has image processing build in their TIS?

    AFAIK, there isn't a single tank of western that uses image processing, the americans are stuck with their image filteration of two sepctrums to highlight objects in predetermined and prerendered IR spectrum to show up aka BHOT and WHOT, no image processing there. The Leopard 2 has neither image processing, do not know about Leclerc, they have been the among the best when it comes to FLIR/TIS but no info on Leclerc the only tank i can imagine that has image processing that would be Merkawa other than that there is no tank with that technology, hell there is only so far one non russian attack helicopter that has image processing that is the AH-1Z Viper and next one is ARH-129 italian modified with Hoplite 3 FLIR of Rafael.

    The T-14 and even the T-90MS catapult themselfs out of any comparision capability for their FCS and image processing, because they have no rivals in that regard.

    Let's not forget T-14 was reported to have plasma screens, and combined with image processing, which together will make a crystal-clear picture. Optical tracking of human targets takes the cake as well! Very Happy
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    Post  Guest Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:46 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Had to smile on this one...

    Which non russian tank has image processing build in their TIS?

    AFAIK, there isn't a single tank of western that uses image processing, the americans are stuck with their image filteration of two sepctrums to highlight objects in predetermined and prerendered IR spectrum to show up aka BHOT and WHOT, no image processing there. The Leopard 2 has neither image processing, do not know about Leclerc, they have been the among the best when it comes to FLIR/TIS but no info on Leclerc the only tank i can imagine that has image processing that would be Merkawa other than that there is no tank with that technology, hell there is only so far one non russian attack helicopter that has image processing that is the AH-1Z Viper and next one is ARH-129 italian modified with Hoplite 3 FLIR of Rafael.

    The T-14 and even the T-90MS catapult themselfs out of any comparision capability for their FCS and image processing, because they have no rivals in that regard.

    Israelis claim their 4th generation Knight FCS uses advanced image processing based on civilian technology http://elbitsystems.com/Elbitmain/files/Fire-Control-Systems.pdf
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    Post  Werewolf Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:58 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:Had to smile on this one...

    Which non russian tank has image processing build in their TIS?

    AFAIK, there isn't a single tank of western that uses image processing, the americans are stuck with their image filteration of two sepctrums to highlight objects in predetermined and prerendered IR spectrum to show up aka BHOT and WHOT, no image processing there. The Leopard 2 has neither image processing, do not know about Leclerc, they have been the among the best when it comes to FLIR/TIS but no info on Leclerc the only tank i can imagine that has image processing that would be Merkawa other than that there is no tank with that technology, hell there is only so far one non russian attack helicopter that has image processing that is the AH-1Z Viper and next one is ARH-129 italian modified with Hoplite 3 FLIR of Rafael.

    The T-14 and even the T-90MS catapult themselfs out of any comparision capability for their FCS and image processing, because they have no rivals in that regard.

    Israelis claim their 4th generation Knight FCS uses advanced image processing based on civilian technology http://elbitsystems.com/Elbitmain/files/Fire-Control-Systems.pdf

    Well that is the only tank i expected to have it besides russian, the question is what kind and to what degree is image processing on Merkawa. Image processing is just a term that can include alot of methods and additional features like autotrack and autolockon. Do they process image for identification in TV spectrum for their shapes? Because at the time the Ka-50 was there in developemnt it had no FLIR and the Radar for it was complex to be solved so they installed Okhotnik, an image processing system that scans from left to right like a radar the frontal sphere for objects it can identify from its Image processing capability, the good think for that kind of "radar" "OLS" like scanning is that it was used on Shkval, it was fixed EO sight system meaning it could scan relative fast because of a relative narrow coverage of the frontal sphere which would be a little bit more complicated in todays FLIR EO balls that can turn at least 200° maybe even 360° which will make it harder to make it useful, however they can be used for preset narrowed angles of expected directions where enemy can engage from.
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    Post  Guest Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:12 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:Had to smile on this one...

    Which non russian tank has image processing build in their TIS?

    AFAIK, there isn't a single tank of western that uses image processing, the americans are stuck with their image filteration of two sepctrums to highlight objects in predetermined and prerendered IR spectrum to show up aka BHOT and WHOT, no image processing there. The Leopard 2 has neither image processing, do not know about Leclerc, they have been the among the best when it comes to FLIR/TIS but no info on Leclerc the only tank i can imagine that has image processing that would be Merkawa other than that there is no tank with that technology, hell there is only so far one non russian attack helicopter that has image processing that is the AH-1Z Viper and next one is ARH-129 italian modified with Hoplite 3 FLIR of Rafael.

    The T-14 and even the T-90MS catapult themselfs out of any comparision capability for their FCS and image processing, because they have no rivals in that regard.

    Israelis claim their 4th generation Knight FCS uses advanced image processing based on civilian technology http://elbitsystems.com/Elbitmain/files/Fire-Control-Systems.pdf

    Well that is the only tank i expected to have it besides russian, the question is what kind and to what degree is image processing on Merkawa. Image processing is just a term that can include alot of methods and additional features like autotrack and autolockon. Do they process image for identification in TV spectrum for their shapes? Because at the time the Ka-50 was there in developemnt it had no FLIR and the Radar for it was complex to be solved so they installed Okhotnik, an image processing system that scans from left to right like a radar the frontal sphere for objects it can identify from its Image processing capability, the good think for that kind of "radar" "OLS" like scanning is that it was used on Shkval, it was fixed EO sight system meaning it could scan relative fast because of a relative narrow coverage of the frontal sphere which would be a little bit more complicated in todays FLIR EO balls that can turn at least 200° maybe even 360° which will make it harder to make it useful, however they can be used for preset narrowed angles of expected directions where enemy can engage from.

    I know i worked myself with image processing during my AI studies, funny enough alot of "image processing" is based on what common people call "artificial intelligence", basically very neat algorithms. One of the most popular for stuff like this i assume would be A* used for pathfinding in video games for an example, and managing vectors.

    When its about Knight not much is really known, but most of its components are available on market for right price i guess with enough digging and few connections in Elbit one could figure everything out.

    "A laser rangefinder and target tracker are integrated into the gunner's sight. The Elbit automatic target tracker is able to automatically aim at the target using the image data presented on the day or night sights." - this line caught my attention tho few months ago. Source: http://www.army-technology.com/projects/merkava/

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2 - Page 8 Merkava-knigh
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    Post  victor1985 Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:41 pm

    because normally the enemy tank cannot be far away , a warning system based on sound of the gun could work? same could be done with bases , aircrafts and other military things... for example a triangulation system for a own aircraft (but ofcourse would be the problem of own noise ) or a sound radar
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    Post  victor1985 Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:49 pm

    and ofcourse not to activate countermeasures when own troops shoot
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    Post  victor1985 Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:09 pm

    also a smell system may work
    some telescopes can be used on tanks with maximize lens and automatic recognition of shapes
    a very small drone could go in front of tanks with automatic back to tank of drone
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    Post  Guest Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:23 pm

    victor1985 wrote:because normally the enemy tank cannot be far away , a warning system based on sound of the gun could work?

    No particular reason not to, its called sound ranging. For now its being used quite alot on sniper detection devices and counter battery artillery detection systems.

    One of the most famous systems of this kind:

    http://www.roke.co.uk/resources/datasheets/halo_dsh35.pdf

    http://www.epicos.com/EPCompanyProfileWeb/Content/MICROFLOWN_TECHNOLOGIES/artillerylocalisationsystem.pdf

    http://www.selex-es.com/documents/737448/22802027/body_Copia+di+mm07667_HALO_LQ_.pdf

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2 - Page 8 3tHksXk


    Some literature on detection of small arms fire, can be applied on tanks too with certain modifications: http://microflown-avisa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Acoustic-detection-and-localisation-of-small-arms-influence-of-urban-conditions.pdf

    Regarding it you have devices like Boomerang II Mobile Acoustic Shooter Detection System, there are plenty of such systems but this one is quite common:

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2 - Page 8 Rtn13_bbn_boomerang_img

    Issue with acoustic systems is that they work better if there are multiple sources, basically microphones, so you will need good network arhitecture for that, having sensors on many vehicles around, tanks , IFVs etc and filter that data to Battle managament system. Naturally you need mechanism to sort out incoming threats so you can make system to report at certain point only threats of certain profile, like only artillery fire not gunfire etc. Issue with such systems is that in full scale war its hard to isolate actual threats and secondary explosions, friendly fire etc etc, technical term would be MUltiple SIgnal Classification (MUSIC).

    Little known devices built with such technology is Serbian MIP 11, multisensor platform which can be equiped with acoustic detection sensors.

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2 - Page 8 MIP+11

    http://www.vti.mod.gov.rs/index.php?view=actuality&type=projects&category=1&id=76

    And somewhat more serious platform developed also by Serbian Military Technical Insitute - HEMERA:

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2 - Page 8 Posetioci%20ispred%20sistema%20Himera

    Source: http://www.vti.mod.gov.rs/index.php?view=actuality&type=projects&category=1&id=73&page=2
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:14 pm

    A spokesman from Kurganmash is saying the price for K-25's will be less than 300 million Roubles:

    Named the price of BMP on the platform "Kurganets-25"
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    Post  Mike E Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:27 am

    Does anyone have the Ruble cost of a BMP-3 or 3M? Can't seem to find it.

    Going off of memory, if it is less than 300 million Rubles, the Kurga will not be significantly more expensive than the BMP-3.
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    Post  Book. Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:11 am

    Mike E wrote:Does anyone have the Ruble cost of a BMP-3 or 3M? Can't seem to find it.

    Going off of memory, if it is less than 300 million Rubles, the Kurga will not be significantly more expensive than the BMP-3.

    Indo pay $100 millon the 60 BMP 3.

    $1.6 millon unit.
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    Post  Mike E Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:13 am

    We need a Ruble figure to be accurate; and one from a Russian order.

    Thanks though, $1.6 is an interesting figure.
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:21 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:Had to smile on this one...

    Which non russian tank has image processing build in their TIS?

    AFAIK, there isn't a single tank of western that uses image processing, the americans are stuck with their image filteration of two sepctrums to highlight objects in predetermined and prerendered IR spectrum to show up aka BHOT and WHOT, no image processing there. The Leopard 2 has neither image processing, do not know about Leclerc, they have been the among the best when it comes to FLIR/TIS but no info on Leclerc the only tank i can imagine that has image processing that would be Merkawa other than that there is no tank with that technology, hell there is only so far one non russian attack helicopter that has image processing that is the AH-1Z Viper and next one is ARH-129 italian modified with Hoplite 3 FLIR of Rafael.

    The T-14 and even the T-90MS catapult themselfs out of any comparision capability for their FCS and image processing, because they have no rivals in that regard.

    Israelis claim their 4th generation Knight FCS uses advanced image processing based on civilian technology http://elbitsystems.com/Elbitmain/files/Fire-Control-Systems.pdf

    Well that is the only tank i expected to have it besides russian, the question is what kind and to what degree is image processing on Merkawa. Image processing is just a term that can include alot of methods and additional features like autotrack and autolockon. Do they process image for identification in TV spectrum for their shapes? Because at the time the Ka-50 was there in developemnt it had no FLIR and the Radar for it was complex to be solved so they installed Okhotnik, an image processing system that scans from left to right like a radar the frontal sphere for objects it can identify from its Image processing capability, the good think for that kind of "radar" "OLS" like scanning is that it was used on Shkval, it was fixed EO sight system meaning it could scan relative fast because of a relative narrow coverage of the frontal sphere which would be a little bit more complicated in todays FLIR EO balls that can turn at least 200° maybe even 360° which will make it harder to make it useful, however they can be used for preset narrowed angles of expected directions where enemy can engage from.

    I know i worked myself with image processing during my AI studies, funny enough alot of "image processing" is based on what common people call "artificial intelligence", basically very neat algorithms. One of the most popular for stuff like this i assume would be A* used for pathfinding in video games for an example, and managing vectors.

    When its about Knight not much is really known, but most of its components are available on market for right price i guess with enough digging and few connections in Elbit one could figure everything out.

    "A laser rangefinder and target tracker are integrated into the gunner's sight. The Elbit automatic target tracker is able to automatically aim at the target using the image data presented on the day or night sights." - this line caught my attention tho few months ago. Source: http://www.army-technology.com/projects/merkava/

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2 - Page 8 Merkava-knigh

    That's the initial Knight. The current Kight4 has been actually fully enslaved to the Trophy APS which makes it really a sensible choice. Half the current fleet has the full spectrum Tadiran suite, many mk3 Baz don't have it. Don't forget Israel makes very good products, but like Russia, sometimes the finest is introduced in limited number or doesn't get spread around the automotive/AFV park.
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    Post  Guest Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:15 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:Had to smile on this one...

    Which non russian tank has image processing build in their TIS?

    AFAIK, there isn't a single tank of western that uses image processing, the americans are stuck with their image filteration of two sepctrums to highlight objects in predetermined and prerendered IR spectrum to show up aka BHOT and WHOT, no image processing there. The Leopard 2 has neither image processing, do not know about Leclerc, they have been the among the best when it comes to FLIR/TIS but no info on Leclerc the only tank i can imagine that has image processing that would be Merkawa other than that there is no tank with that technology, hell there is only so far one non russian attack helicopter that has image processing that is the AH-1Z Viper and next one is ARH-129 italian modified with Hoplite 3 FLIR of Rafael.

    The T-14 and even the T-90MS catapult themselfs out of any comparision capability for their FCS and image processing, because they have no rivals in that regard.

    Israelis claim their 4th generation Knight FCS uses advanced image processing based on civilian technology http://elbitsystems.com/Elbitmain/files/Fire-Control-Systems.pdf

    Well that is the only tank i expected to have it besides russian, the question is what kind and to what degree is image processing on Merkawa. Image processing is just a term that can include alot of methods and additional features like autotrack and autolockon. Do they process image for identification in TV spectrum for their shapes? Because at the time the Ka-50 was there in developemnt it had no FLIR and the Radar for it was complex to be solved so they installed Okhotnik, an image processing system that scans from left to right like a radar the frontal sphere for objects it can identify from its Image processing capability, the good think for that kind of "radar" "OLS" like scanning is that it was used on Shkval, it was fixed EO sight system meaning it could scan relative fast because of a relative narrow coverage of the frontal sphere which would be a little bit more complicated in todays FLIR EO balls that can turn at least 200° maybe even 360° which will make it harder to make it useful, however they can be used for preset narrowed angles of expected directions where enemy can engage from.

    I know i worked myself with image processing during my AI studies, funny enough alot of "image processing" is based on what common people call "artificial intelligence", basically very neat algorithms. One of the most popular for stuff like this i assume would be A* used for pathfinding in video games for an example, and managing vectors.

    When its about Knight not much is really known, but most of its components are available on market for right price i guess with enough digging and few connections in Elbit one could figure everything out.

    "A laser rangefinder and target tracker are integrated into the gunner's sight. The Elbit automatic target tracker is able to automatically aim at the target using the image data presented on the day or night sights." - this line caught my attention tho few months ago. Source: http://www.army-technology.com/projects/merkava/

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2 - Page 8 Merkava-knigh

    That's the initial Knight. The current Kight4 has been actually fully enslaved to the Trophy APS which makes it really a sensible choice. Half the current fleet has the full spectrum Tadiran suite, many mk3 Baz don't have it. Don't forget Israel makes very good products, but like Russia, sometimes the finest is introduced in limited number or doesn't get spread around the automotive/AFV park.

    Note that not all Mekravas have Trophy, its still being handed out to the units, but yes you are right about that, this is Initial Knight installed on Merkava 4s not post Trophy version. Still we kinda just talked about image processing software and hardware not capabilities overall.

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