The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

Ok, what the hell is going on here, seriously guys the only ones missing from this "discussion" are TR1 and Vann, then we'll have total ClusterF#ck.

sepheronx wrote:

Neutrality wrote:sephernox help me understand a thing. You call up on every Russian to wake up and realize what's happening on their soil. You hold Putin accountable for what's happening on Russia's doorstep. Please tell me why you're not so hard for the people of Eastern Ukraine, who up to this day allow the atrocities to happen in their country. Why do Russians living in Russia have to be more concerned about Ukraine than the people of Ukraine themselves?

In all honesty dude, I am terribly disappointed in you. You always seemed as a calculated person in your replies. I've been reading your posts long before I decided to join on MP.net. I'm shocked at these unintelligent and emotional outbursts that you're writing.

Because I disagree with you people about Putin and how I see he is doing squat, compared to everyone else claiming he is doing things behind the scenes, makes me unintelligent and miscalculated? Eastern Ukraine is doing something about it, hence the Donetsk and Lugansk regions being their own territory. They are fighting off a regime who is funded by US while these guys are getting scraps. But they have asked for help to Russia initially and got nothing while Crimea got it all. As a Ukrainian ethnic myself, I find it sad and very much a betrayal. Add to that, Putin has shown support to Kiev by giving cheap gas, over looked the stealing of gas and not demand compensation, sold it cheap coal, and has not called in the $3B debts early since Kiev broke the agreements held on it. Add to this, he allowed civillians in his own territory to be killed By another nations army and did nothing about it. No retalitory strike. All of this points out to me a different story than what many here think. This shows to me he has gotten cold feet over the sanctions and is more worried about the supposed 2-3% gdp drop this year and potential growth next year, and wants it all to go back to way it was before.

One must understand, that if you show weakness, people will take advantage of that. Putin has shown weakness on Ukraine affair, and after Ukraine, US will attempt further.

Another thing I see is that he has not gone after NGO's within his own country as some of them openly refused to register properly, that is breaking the law. Yet, they still opperate freely in Russia, no one arrested Or the NGO not kicked out. And they have enough evidence that where money is coming from and going to. They know all of this and doing nothing (was said in media). Even Venezuela reduced US embassy to a couple of people and started kicking out the foreign NGO's causing problems. Putin has not, at all, except USAid. So why just one NGO, when many others are doing the same as USAid and even worst, breaking the law.

I have my beliefes, and something tells me he is being paid off or someone is threatening him.

You continue to talk out of your ass. Today's world order is crumbling, economic model is not working but the ruling classes are desperate to save it to save themselves. As it stands the future that awaits the world is either major war, civil war in the US or elsewhere in the West, hyperinflation or changing the economic model into something better and more human. What do you think is the favorite scenario for the bankers and their servants? I'm pretty sure a major war in which Russia is the key participant. Putin knows this and that's why he was saying that he will not allow anyone to push Russia into war. That's also the reason for the very pacifist stetements that he makes, because it's clear by reading and watching the western media that they want people to hate Russia so as to accept war as something inevitable if it happens. Russia and Putin are beating this trap very well till now with their calm and calculated actions, working the media very well and yes even that annoying thing that everyone hates when they call anyone in the West their partners and friends is part of the same game. If Russia acted as Strelkov wanted and you obviously, not only would they lose friends in the East but the warmongers in the West would get everything they want to put their plan into action. Because the neoliberal elite wants war Putin needs to do everything that it doesn't happen, and that means delaying it as much as possible to give Russia a chance to be more ready for it if it happens, give antiwar forces in the West to stop it and also hope that situation changes in the Ukraine herself.

It seems to me there is media blackout in Russia regarding what's happening in Ukraine. The putch regime continues shelling the people of Donbas every single day and committing genocide, yet there is nothing in Russian news about that. It seems, Putin is trying to make the public think there is nothing happening in Ukraine so he can later stop humanitarian aid to Donbas.   Any thoughts?

Flagship Victory wrote:It seems to me there is media blackout in Russia regarding what's happening in Ukraine. The putch regime continues to shell the people of Donbas every single day and committing genocide yet there is nothing in Russian news about that. It seems, Putin is trying to make the public think there is nothing happening in Ukraine so he can later stop humanitarian aid to Donbas. Any thoughts?

I think that you're a paid troll who is lying constantly and is spreading panic and defeatism on purpose. Till now only one guy is buying the shit you're selling and hopefully it stays that way

Erk wrote:

kvs wrote:

Erk wrote:

sepheronx wrote:No, when you cant pay your bills, you get cut off. So effectively, Ukraine should have been cut off, but instead, Russia allowed contract to be overwritten and they now sell it at a discount. That is keeping kiev alive. Debt was supposed to be dealt with last year, and this year, Ukraine went past debt agreement on how much debt they can collect from IMF, which of course kiev broke and Russia once again did not call in the debt.

Russia have cut off gas to Ukraine several times, last year is was for something like 5months until they finally coughed up some money.

This is western media BS.   In both 2006 and 2009 it was the Yuschenko regime that cut off flow.   Gazprom had an independent Swiss
firm monitoring the meters and valves on the Russian side of the border.   But the western media chorus bleated "blackmail" over and
over.

As for recently, Ukraine was getting "reverse" flow of Gazprom's gas via Poland and Slovakia and it was Ukraine that decided to "live
without Russian gas".   So at no stage did Gazprom ever cut off Ukraine's supply.

Russia has turned off gas supplies through Ukraine twice, in the winters of 2006 and 2009, after Kiev was late paying. Halting natural gas supplies not only hurt Ukraine, but also squeezed European neighbors, as prices shot up and millions of European homes were left without heat. Both periods lasted about three weeks.

http://rt.com/business/165328-russia-turn-off-gas/  RT must be one of those western media BS outlets too I guess by your logic.

You really think that is proof?  

RT, English RIAN repeat NATO propaganda tropes on a routine basis.  Maybe it is a strategy not to cause too much
cognitive dissonance in the western consumer of this information.  Maybe it is just 5th column BS like Liz Wahl.

http://www.icmrindia.org/casestudies/catalogue/Business%20Environment/Gazprom-Naftogaz%20Ukrainy%20Dispute-Business%20or%20Politics-Case%20Study.htm

Gazprom had Switzerland based SGS inspect the shipment.  Ukraine refused to let the observers verify flows through
its territory.   According to you this is proof of Gazprom's blackmail.   Take your smug sanctimony and shove it.

sepheronx wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:It seems to me there is media blackout in Russia regarding what's happening in Ukraine. The putch regime continues shelling the people of Donbas every single day and committing genocide, yet there is nothing in Russian news about that. It seems, Putin is trying to make the public think there is nothing happening in Ukraine so he can later stop humanitarian aid to Donbas.   Any thoughts?

http://tass.ru/en/world/795120
http://tass.ru/en/world/795163

Both Today.  Itar Tass is Russian a news agency.

I stand corrected. Here in Canada we get RT which used to have lots of Ukraine related news. Nowadays hardly any.

I suppose the people of Donbas now have a choice to make. Fight on and risk getting killed by Maidanists, or submit and allow American tanks to be parked right on Russia's border. Putin still does not see that these common folks are fighting for Russia, that they fight so there isn't a Maidan in Moscow, so Russia isn't broken up into tiny little pieces by that traitor Navalny. Putin needs to understand, Navalny would kill Putin if there is a Maidan in Moscow, which would almost surely happen if Maidanists take over Donbas. Putin needs to understand that he cannot afford to be soft like Yanukovych who would have lost his life to Maidanists had he not escaped to Russia.

The US knows the US cannot fight a hot war with Russia, so the US tries to use internal conflict and traitors to beat Russia. Sun Tzu once said, the war that defeats the enemy without shedding a drop of blood is the best war.

sepheronx wrote:

Nikander wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Neutrality wrote:sephernox help me understand a thing. You call up on every Russian to wake up and realize what's happening on their soil. You hold Putin accountable for what's happening on Russia's doorstep. Please tell me why you're not so hard for the people of Eastern Ukraine, who up to this day allow the atrocities to happen in their country. Why do Russians living in Russia have to be more concerned about Ukraine than the people of Ukraine themselves?

In all honesty dude, I am terribly disappointed in you. You always seemed as a calculated person in your replies. I've been reading your posts long before I decided to join on MP.net. I'm shocked at these unintelligent and emotional outbursts that you're writing.

Because I disagree with you people about Putin and how I see he is doing squat, compared to everyone else claiming he is doing things behind the scenes, makes me unintelligent and miscalculated? Eastern Ukraine is doing something about it, hence the Donetsk and Lugansk regions being their own territory. They are fighting off a regime who is funded by US while these guys are getting scraps. But they have asked for help to Russia initially and got nothing while Crimea got it all. As a Ukrainian ethnic myself, I find it sad and very much a betrayal. Add to that, Putin has shown support to Kiev by giving cheap gas, over looked the stealing of gas and not demand compensation, sold it cheap coal, and has not called in the $3B debts early since Kiev broke the agreements held on it. Add to this, he allowed civillians in his own territory to be killed By another nations army and did nothing about it. No retalitory strike. All of this points out to me a different story than what many here think. This shows to me he has gotten cold feet over the sanctions and is more worried about the supposed 2-3% gdp drop this year and potential growth next year, and wants it all to go back to way it was before.

One must understand, that if you show weakness, people will take advantage of that. Putin has shown weakness on Ukraine affair, and after Ukraine, US will attempt further.

Another thing I see is that he has not gone after NGO's within his own country as some of them openly refused to register properly, that is breaking the law. Yet, they still opperate freely in Russia, no one arrested Or the NGO not kicked out. And they have enough evidence that where money is coming from and going to. They know all of this and doing nothing (was said in media). Even Venezuela reduced US embassy to a couple of people and started kicking out the foreign NGO's causing problems. Putin has not, at all, except USAid. So why just one NGO, when many others are doing the same as USAid and even worst, breaking the law.

I have my beliefes, and something tells me he is being paid off or someone is threatening him.

You continue to talk out of your ass. Today's world order is crumbling, economic model is not working but the ruling classes are desperate to save it to save themselves. As it stands the future that awaits the world is either major war, civil war in the US or elsewhere in the West, hyperinflation or changing the economic model into something better and more human. What do you think is the favorite scenario for the bankers and their servants? I'm pretty sure a major war in which Russia is the key participant. Putin knows this and that's why he was saying that he will not allow anyone to push Russia into war. That's also the reason for the very pacifist stetements that he makes, because it's clear by reading and watching the western media that they want people to hate Russia so as to accept war as something inevitable if it happens. Russia and Putin are beating this trap very well till now with their calm and calculated actions, working the media very well and yes even that annoying thing that everyone hates when they call anyone in the West their partners and friends is part of the same game. If Russia acted as Strelkov wanted and you obviously, not only would they lose friends in the East but the warmongers in the West would get everything  they want to put their plan into action. Because the neoliberal elite wants war Putin needs to do everything  that it doesn't happen, and that means delaying it as much as possible to give Russia a chance to be more ready for it if it happens, give antiwar forces in the West to stop it and also hope that situation changes in the Ukraine herself.

So what constitutes not getting Russia into war?  So if USA attacked tomorrow, Russia wont bother defending itself cause it doesn't want to get into a war?  Are you serious?  Already Russians are getting snuffed off.  If I was talking out of my ass, you would be simply taking each point I am saying and disproving it.  Pray tell, how am I wrong?  Should I present links for you of the cheap gas and cheap coal?  Or how part of the $3B purchases in Eurobonds was that Ukraine cannot contain more than 70% debt to GDP, which they already have, and thus would require for Russia to call in that debt?  I am not talking out of my ass son, I am just pointing out facts that were present in media.

- Cheap Gas March 31 2015: http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-pushing-gazprom-to-provide-discount-gas-to-ukraine-2015-3
- Cheap Coal/Electricity Dec 27,2014: http://article.wn.com/view/2014/12/27/Russia_to_supply_coal_electricity_to_Ukraine/
- Ukraine breaks $3B Eurobond Debt Agreement: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-10/thank-you-western-taxpayer-russia-accelerate-3bn-ukraine-debt

Of course that Russia would defend herself but US won't attack tomorrow. They must have a reason for their actions, so when Crimea happened they did what? More troops in the East, spearhead forces, control centers. They could do it because they had a reason which could be sold to the public. If Russia invaded Nato could do whatever they wanted, propaganda would be enormous and people in the West would applaud Nato actions whatever they might be. I already disapproved your points. Cheap gas and coal are linked with lack of water and electricity in Crimea. Also lets remember Transnistria, there was bargaining with Ukraine also. For the bonds I have also answered you but you want to believe the worst and that Putin is some kind of traitor, so what can I say to you. Believe what you want

Flagship Victory wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:It seems to me there is media blackout in Russia regarding what's happening in Ukraine. The putch regime continues shelling the people of Donbas every single day and committing genocide, yet there is nothing in Russian news about that. It seems, Putin is trying to make the public think there is nothing happening in Ukraine so he can later stop humanitarian aid to Donbas.   Any thoughts?

http://tass.ru/en/world/795120
http://tass.ru/en/world/795163

Both Today.  Itar Tass is Russian a news agency.

I stand corrected. Here in Canada we get RT which used to have lots of Ukraine related news. Nowadays hardly any.

Selective interpretation of facts there. Russian journalists have been terrorized out of Ukraine.

After reading that RT piece "rebutting" my recollection of the 2006 and 2009 gas "cut off" by Gazprom, I can
see the Novorussian rebels being wary of them too.

Okey, now...

http://uatoday.tv/politics/victims-of-soviet-political-repression-honoured-at-kyiv-ceremony-427730.

Poroshenko expressed confidence in now clearing Ukraine of communist symbols

Petro Poroshenko has led commemorations in Kyiv honoring the victims of Soviet-era political repression. The Ukrainian president said that Ukraine will never allow another 'red' genocide and that decommunisation was the correct way forward for the country.  

Okay let's take a look at the "crimes" of the Commie

Flagship Victory wrote:It seems to me there is media blackout in Russia regarding what's happening in Ukraine. The putch regime continues shelling the people of Donbas every single day and committing genocide, yet there is nothing in Russian news about that. It seems, Putin is trying to make the public think there is nothing happening in Ukraine so he can later stop humanitarian aid to Donbas.   Any thoughts?

It seems to me ,you just jumped recently in the Ukraine conflict.. and you get all your information from CNN and BBC.. The Russian media have been every day speaking about Ukraine conflict.. i have no idea what "blackout" you talk..  if any the real blackout is in western media that do not report ,or barely do..about the warcrimes of kiev and major repression and killing of any citizen or journalist who critisize kiev government.

here is about the so called "captured russian soldiers"

The Lugansk rebel command reports that the two captured soldiers are local militia members from Ukraine and are not Russians. Kiev, according the rebels, is engaging in provocative misrepresentation of the facts.

About Strelkov.. please ignore him already.. he is past history..
He is a great military leader ,but very terrible in politics.. he wanted to drive with tanks
to kiev..  risking the mother of all proxy wars between US and Russia ,since Korean war .

People who wants to see Russia invading all the way to kiev ,needs to understand ,that this is
exactly what the Americans and kiev wants.. What do they know that you don't know is the question..?    NATO military could literary create a proxy war in Ukraine that will last decades
if RUssia invade. This not only dramatically damage Russia economy having its army there ,not mentioning the isolation from Europe too.. but will have major unrest in Russian cities ,demanding Russia to stop the invasion.. as soon a few Russian soldiers killed by a road side bomb..  Even americans lost near 10,000 soldiers in IRAQ war after "winning" and lost 1 $trillion
dollars in that conflict.  and in the end they did not managed to take control of IRAQ.. it was a big waste of money for nothing..

for any official interference in Ukraine , Russia needs no less than vast majority of Ukrainians
support.. something Crimea style.. and the support of Europe too.. otherwise Russia will end
fighting civilians who are pro Europe..and do not want to be part of Russia.. then the western agencies will have a field day with false flags ,and holywood videos of Russian soldiers raping Ukrainians womens and or killing children.. then you have the 5-6 Nuclear reactors ,that kiev
ultra radicals already threatened to blow up if the Rebels continue advancing.

Officially Ukraine is Hostage ,of the world most Dangerous terrorist organization called United States of America ,and with full control of their media ,and with NATO allies helping them .so effectively it will be  proxy war between Russia and NATO ,that will not achieve the objectives
the invasion original goals that it was defending ethnic Russians.. instead it will do the opposite.
If Russia invades and major ethnic cleansing of Russians will start in all cities ,to force Russia to invade all Ukraine.. and Russia will be there in the role of Police until their economy cripple and collapse.. I don't think Strelkov ever ,saw that ..and this is why he believe invading kiev is a good option.. but is not..  

The changes in Ukraine can only happen withing its own people.. and there is no
other way.. Russia only role needs to be to keep the conflict away of Russia territory (by not allowing them to move to Crimea and keeping them busy in donetsk) and help the Cities who rebelled to hold ,to pressure Ukraine to give them an autonomy..  

Ukrainians are brainwashed and you need to let them eat dust and see their own mistakes for
supporting a coup in kiev and then allowing Obamanazis to take control of kiev and split the society.  When Ukraine economy collapse ,the patriotism bullshit will end and even the banderas
will be asking for Russia to invade and take ukraine ,after they notice no one in Europe wants them.

You will see how US will lose total control of kiev and the entire revolution ,when Ukraine economy collapse and people start to flee the nation and no more jobs.. the loyalty and patriotism will mean shit ,and only then is when the real revolution will start.. and the Ultra Nationalist parties will be crushed and the people pro Russia and neutral to Russia will siege control.. without Russia firing a single shot. This is why the americans are now trying to negotiate with RUssia the end of the crisis.. not even them have the economy to maintain 40 millions of jobless ukrainians. and Russia help will be required to keep the country alive for americans private companies to continue looting.

Vann7 wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:It seems to me there is media blackout in Russia regarding what's happening in Ukraine. The putch regime continues shelling the people of Donbas every single day and committing genocide, yet there is nothing in Russian news about that. It seems, Putin is trying to make the public think there is nothing happening in Ukraine so he can later stop humanitarian aid to Donbas.   Any thoughts?

It seems to me ,you just jumped recently in the Ukraine conflict.. and you get all your information from CNN and BBC.. The Russian media have been every day speaking about Ukraine conflict.. i have no idea what "blackout" you talk..  if any the real blackout is in western media that do not report ,or barely do..about the warcrimes of kiev and major repression and killing of any citizen or journalist who critisize kiev government.

here is about the so called "captured russian soldiers"

The Lugansk rebel command reports that the two captured soldiers are local militia members from Ukraine and are not Russians. Kiev, according the rebels, is engaging in provocative misrepresentation of the facts.

About Strelkov.. please ignore him already.. he is past history..
He is a great military leader ,but very terrible in politics.. he wanted to drive with tanks
to kiev..  risking the mother of all proxy wars between US and Russia ,since Korean war .

People who wants to see Russia invading all the way to kiev ,needs to understand ,that this is
exactly what the Americans and kiev wants.. What do they know that you don't know is the question..?    NATO military could literary create a proxy war in Ukraine that will last decades
if RUssia invade. This not only dramatically damage Russia economy having its army there ,not mentioning the isolation from Europe too.. but will have major unrest in Russian cities ,demanding Russia to stop the invasion.. as soon a few Russian soldiers killed by a road side bomb..  Even americans lost near 10,000 soldiers in IRAQ war after "winning" and lost 1 $trillion
dollars in that conflict.  and in the end they did not managed to take control of IRAQ.. it was a big waste of money for nothing..

for any official interference in Ukraine , Russia needs no less than vast majority of Ukrainians
support.. something Crimea style.. and the support of Europe too.. otherwise Russia will end
fighting civilians who are pro Europe..and do not want to be part of Russia.. then the western agencies will have a field day with false flags ,and holywood videos of Russian soldiers raping Ukrainians womens and or killing children.. then you have the 5-6 Nuclear reactors ,that kiev
ultra radicals already threatened to blow up if the Rebels continue advancing.

Officially Ukraine is Hostage ,of the world most Dangerous terrorist organization called United States of America ,and with full control of their media ,and with NATO allies helping them .so effectively it will be  proxy war between Russia and NATO ,that will not achieve the objectives
the invasion original goals that it was defending ethnic Russians.. instead it will do the opposite.
If Russia invades and major ethnic cleansing of Russians will start in all cities ,to force Russia to invade all Ukraine.. and Russia will be there in the role of Police until their economy cripple and collapse.. I don't think Strelkov ever ,saw that ..and this is why he believe invading kiev is a good option.. but is not..  

The changes in Ukraine can only happen withing its own people.. and there is no
other way.. Russia only role needs to be to keep the conflict away of Russia territory (by not allowing them to move to Crimea and keeping them busy in donetsk) and help the Cities who rebelled to hold ,to pressure Ukraine to give them an autonomy..  

Ukrainians are brainwashed and you need to let them eat dust and see their own mistakes for
supporting a coup in kiev and then allowing Obamanazis to take control of kiev and split the society.  When Ukraine economy collapse ,the patriotism bullshit will end and even the banderas
will be asking for Russia to invade and take ukraine ,after they notice no one in Europe wants them.

 

Iraq is a different scenario. Iraqis are hardly Americans. They do not want Americans in their country. Plus they were armed by neighboring Iran. Ukraine is a whole different ball game. Other than western Ukrainians whose population is small, most Ukrainians are Russian speakers and can be considered ethnic Russian. After all, Ukraine did not exist until after the Bolshevik revolution. When Germany took over Austria, was there resistance? No. If Russia takes over Ukraine, the people of Ukraine would rejoice because life for them would become much more prosperous. Ukranian road side bombs killing Russian invaders is nothing but a boogeyman story straight out of CIA to scare Putin.

Flagship Victory wrote:

Iraq is a different scenario. Iraqis are hardly Americans. They do not want Americans in their country. Plus they were armed by neighboring Iran. Ukraine is a whole different ball game. Other than western Ukrainians whose population is small, most Ukrainians are Russian speakers and can be considered ethnic Russian. After all, Ukraine did not exist until after the Bolshevik revolution. When Germany took over Austria, was there resistance? No. If Russia takes over Ukraine, the people of Ukraine would rejoice because life for them would become much more prosperous. Ukranian road side bombs killing Russian invaders is nothing but a boogeyman story straight out of CIA to scare Putin.

It will be very similar.. because just like americans in IRAQ.. .Russia will not be able to hold control and loyalty of ukraine.. if they invade... the american and NATO media will direct the anger of all ukrainians to Russia ,(instead of kiev) and will give kiev the unity that kiev needs to fight Russia...and Russia will be blamed for their economy problems..  So while in IRAQ
people do not wanted to see Americans in their land..  when Ukraine economy collapse.. people will be jobless and the Ukraine currency will be worthless ,people will lose the savings of all their life.. it will be much worse than soviet union economy collapse.. because you have a civil war in Ukraine that see no end...  Russia survived thanks to people solving their difference in short time.. and creating a unity government.. this will not happen in Ukraine as long the ultra nationals and US is not kicked from control of their government and a democracy Restored again.. with the rights of minorities respected.  In other words a Pro Russian faction or Neutral one.will need to take control of kiev.. otherwise Ukraine will disband in many countries... and it
will be the end of Ukraine.. Russia will get control of all the black sea coastal zones and the Rusophobic factions landlocked.

Is a war of influence ,what Russia needs to win vs USA.
If Russia invades Donetsk and Lugansk ,and split it from Ukraine ,that will help kiev to unite people against Russia.  If Russia keeps a low profile and shows they want to help ukrainians ,and shows is ready to cooperate.. then people will see Kiev war is completely out of place and
the anger of people will be not against Russia but against Kiev but also USA..for fueling the divisions on their society.. Which is exactly what americans have been doing since the coup..
So this is why Russia helps Ukraine.. even after the government in kiev is killing civilians.. because Russia nows the government in kiev is not popular ,do not represent majority of Ukrainians and only got in power by force and by jailing any opposition to thegovernment that is friendly to Russia. Poroshenko won ,only by banning any pro Russian party to participate ..and threatening anyone with jail if show support for Russia. That is not a democracy ,and neither kiev represent all ukrainians . but a minority . the elections were rigged to allow a western puppet to get in control in kiev.

Vann7 wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:

Iraq is a different scenario. Iraqis are hardly Americans. They do not want Americans in their country. Plus they were armed by neighboring Iran. Ukraine is a whole different ball game. Other than western Ukrainians whose population is small, most Ukrainians are Russian speakers and can be considered ethnic Russian. After all, Ukraine did not exist until after the Bolshevik revolution. When Germany took over Austria, was there resistance? No. If Russia takes over Ukraine, the people of Ukraine would rejoice because life for them would become much more prosperous. Ukranian road side bombs killing Russian invaders is nothing but a boogeyman story straight out of CIA to scare Putin.

It will be very similar.. because just like americans in IRAQ.. .Russia will not be able to hold control and loyalty of ukraine.. if they invade... the american and NATO media will direct the anger of all ukrainians to Russia ,(instead of kiev) and will give kiev the unity that kiev needs to fight Russia...and Russia will be blamed for their economy problems..  So while in IRAQ
people do not wanted to see Americans in their land..  when Ukraine economy collapse.. people will be jobless and the Ukraine currency will be worthless ,people will lose the savings of all their life.. it will be much worse than soviet union economy collapse.. because you have a civil war in Ukraine that see no end...  Russia survived thanks to people solving their difference in short time.. and creating a unity government.. this will not happen in Ukraine as long the ultra nationals and US is not kicked from control of their government and a democracy Restored again.. with the rights of minorities respected.  In other words a Pro Russian faction or Neutral one.will need to take control of kiev.. otherwise Ukraine will disband in many countries... and it
will be the end of Ukraine.. Russia will get control of all the black sea coastal zones and the Rusophobic factions landlocked.

Is a war of influence ,what Russia needs to win vs USA.
If Russia invades Donetsk and Lugansk ,and split it from Ukraine ,that will help kiev to unite people against Russia.  If Russia keeps a low profile and shows they want to help ukrainians ,and shows is ready to cooperate.. then people will see Kiev war is completely out of place and
the anger of people will be not against Russia but against Kiev but also USA..for fueling the divisions on their society..

Not so. You see Dutch people and German people are very similar ethnically. Germany took over the Netherlands with hardly any resistance. Since take over, Dutch people have welcomed being part of Germany. Only in 1944 / 1945 did the US invade and took the Netherlands out of Germany again. I do not believe Ukrainians would resist much, if at all, even western Ukrainians won't IMO. Plus, if western Ukrainians do resist because they are Catholic rather than Orthodox, then they are welcome to splinter off into their own state like how Catholic Ireland splintered off from Protestant Britain.

On the contrary, if Putin ignores the situation, then it is only a matter of time, and it won't be long, before Americans set up military bases in Kharkov right on Russia's border.

Flagship Victory wrote:


Not so. You see Dutch people and German people are very similar ethnically. Germany took over the Netherlands with hardly any resistance. Since take over, Dutch people have welcomed being part of Germany. Only in 1944 / 1945 did the US invade and took the Netherlands out of Germany again. I do not believe Ukrainians would resist much, if at all, even western Ukrainians won't IMO. Plus, if western Ukrainians do resist because they are Catholic rather than Orthodox, then they are welcome to splinter off into their own state like how Catholic Ireland splintered off from Protestant Britain.

As i told before.. Ukraine is literary hostage from a criminal organization in kiev and sponsored
by USA and NATO allies.  Similar to Beslan school crisis in Russia.. where terrorist with explosives took control of the school with hundreds of children and they warned to blow everyone if their
request are not full filled.

But is much worse because in this case kiev is the terrorist..and instead of bomb they have
nuclear reactors..and then have US and NATO backing them.. so Russia cannot take by force
kiev without risking a major catastrophe there . This is not mentioning how Poland and Lithuane will keep sending weapons to the resistance in Ukraine to fight Russia.. like afgan war they did.. just this time not using Islamic jihadist  ..but Ukrainians radicals. And RUssia understand well the game..

The only way out of the crisis in Ukraine is Russia to get most of Europe help to pressure Americans to end their proxy war.. (or let Ukraine economy collapse and observe how the nation divide and bring down the regime in kiev without Russia firing a shot..,(which is exactly what Russian government is doing).

Time is on the side of Russia.. and not in the side of Kiev and USA.. both need Russia help..
to keep Ukraine alive.. There is no possibility for Ukraine as a nation to exist without Russia..
and Putin understand this very well..  Americans do not have the economy to finance 40 millions jobless ukrainians.. so they will need to reverse the coup somehow and reinstall a democracy
there ,where all minorities respected and seen as equals ,if they want to have a chance to keep
Ukraine as a nation and not disband.

The minsk-2 agreement is a monumental victory for Putin and Russia.. It was the death sentence for the nulandNAZI revolution in kiev.. Because the Rebels agreed.. and poroshenko signed it.. and its backed by United Nations resolution too..

So the Rebels said ,, alright we surrender our independence and allow to continue in Ukraine
but only after kiev give us an special status and respect our languages and basic rights.. So all Kiev and Poroshenko needs to do , to retake Donetsk and Lugansk is restore Democracy in Ukraine constitution and allow DOnetsk and Lugansk to have so kind of autonomy where they can supply their own security and elect their own leaders.. This is democratic and fair indeed.. but it have a major problem.. that essentially ends the dictatorship in kiev if implemented and Pro RUssian factions will have to be installed again in kiev.. essentially a reverse of the coup.. and restore of the democracy..

Then the separatist will be able to say.. that they cooperated and agreed to remain part of kiev ,but kiev did not stopped bombing them. So kiev risk to lose the support of Europe ,germany
and France if they do not implement the minsk2 agreement. And is a big victory for Russia..
Because Russia can say.. hey ..we agreed that Kiev recovers their territories ,don't blame us..if they do not do the reforms they agreed to do but never did.

So from my point of view.. Russia already won the Ukraine conflict.. at the political level..
and US is the one becoming isolated.. The only thing now Russia needs to do now ,is to freeze
the conflict.. in a stalemate.. and see how the collapse of Ukraine economy finally put the last nail in kiev coffin and disband.. This is brilliant because give kiev the option to choose what way they prefer.. if Becoming a democracy again ,respecting rights of minorities or if disbanding Ukraine.

Vann7 wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:


Not so. You see Dutch people and German people are very similar ethnically. Germany took over the Netherlands with hardly any resistance. Since take over, Dutch people have welcomed being part of Germany. Only in 1944 / 1945 did the US invade and took the Netherlands out of Germany again. I do not believe Ukrainians would resist much, if at all, even western Ukrainians won't IMO. Plus, if western Ukrainians do resist because they are Catholic rather than Orthodox, then they are welcome to splinter off into their own state like how Catholic Ireland splintered off from Protestant Britain.

As i told before.. Ukraine is literary hostage from a criminal organization in kiev and sponsored
by USA and NATO allies.  Similar to Beslan school crisis in Russia.. where terrorist with explosives took control of the school with hundreds of children and they warned to blow everyone if their
request are not full filled.

But is much worse because in this case kiev is the terrorist..and instead of bomb they have
nuclear reactors..and then have US and NATO backing them.. so Russia cannot take by force
kiev without risking a major catastrophe there . This is not mentioning how Poland and Lithuane will keep sending weapons to the resistance in Ukraine to fight Russia.. like afgan war they did.. just this time not using Islamic jihadist  ..but Ukrainians radicals. And RUssia understand well the game..

The only way out of the crisis in Ukraine is Russia to get most of Europe help to pressure Americans to end their proxy war.. (or let Ukraine economy collapse and observe how the nation divide and bring down the regime in kiev without Russia firing a shot..,(which is exactly what Russian government is doing).

Time is on the side of Russia.. and not in the side of Kiev and USA.. both need Russia help..
to keep Ukraine alive.. There is no possibility for Ukraine as a nation to exist without Russia..
and Putin understand this very well..  Americans do not have the economy to finance 40 millions jobless ukrainians.. so they will need to reverse the coup somehow and reinstall a democracy
there ,where all minorities respected and seen as equals ,if they want to have a chance to keep
Ukraine as a nation and not disband.

Americans do not care about financing a state of 40 million. They only care about parking Abrams tanks right on the border with Russia. They can already do this in places like Kharkov oblast. Time is the essense. The early bird catches the worm. Putin cannot afford to play the long game. American troops are already in Ukraine. The only way to prevent Abrams tanks parked right on Russia's border would be to arm NAF and fight to Kiev. That's the only way.

As for Minsk 2, let's not even go there. It is a farce. Every day, Maidanists shell Donbas with LARGE caliber artillery and blatantly carries out what UN defines as a genocide. Who even speaks a word about it? No one.

That's a very good point, Vann, about the bogus elections in Ukraine. Where are all the reports on how "free and fair"
and "corresponding to democratic norms" were the elections of 2014 when the kangaroo Rada banned "unacceptable"
parties. It is routine for the NATO media to bitch about some fringe liberast not getting on the presidential ballot in
Russia as if that "proves" it is a tyranny. Yet in Ukraine you had 50% of the population disenfranchised by a coup regime
and NATO treats the clown elections as right and proper.

Flagship Victory wrote:
Americans do not care about financing a state of 40 million. They only care about parking Abrams tanks right on the border with Russia. They can already do this in places like Kharkov oblast. Time is the essense. The early bird catches the worm. Putin cannot afford to play the long game. American troops are already in Ukraine. The only way to prevent Abrams tanks parked right on Russia's border would be to arm NAF and fight to Kiev. That's the only way.

Russia is already giving help to the rebels.. and no ..NATO will not be able to install any military
base in Ukraine with so many pro Russian resistance in all Ukraine..and with an army armed with tanks ready to fight them.. a simple Kornet-D missile will wipe any Abram tank from 8km away.. or an apache helicopter at same distance..so US cannot operate freely in Ukraine..there is too much resistance loyal to Russia and that will be very well armed .It will be another vietnam war for the americans..but the resistance this time armed with modern weapons.. What they have done is move to western Ukraine.. and send hundreds of mercenaries undercover to help kiev..  

Really NATO army is not a threat for Russia.. you cannot invade Russia with an army... a simply tactical nuke will wipe it.. Baltic states are much near to Moscow than Ukraine..and if they wanted to suicide ,they could have done it.. decades ago..what is a threat for RUssia is the ABM missile shield.. because can be armed with nuclear weapons its warheads and used as missiles against Russia for a first strike preventive attack.

But Ukraine will never be a NATO member because that will force NATO to fight a war with Russia that cannot win , and allow Ukraine to get NATO best equipment that Russia easily later can steal through spies.. there is too many support for Russia in Ukraine ,to become a NATO state. it will never happen. and it will not happen because americans will not want it..

If a NATO member is attacked ,,and Americans do nothing ,that will destroy the credibility of the organization .and disband it.. so the possibilities of Ukraine being a NATO member is zero. Because no one will form in line to fight directly a nuclear powered nation like Russia..

Vann7 wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:
Americans do not care about financing a state of 40 million. They only care about parking Abrams tanks right on the border with Russia. They can already do this in places like Kharkov oblast. Time is the essense. The early bird catches the worm. Putin cannot afford to play the long game. American troops are already in Ukraine. The only way to prevent Abrams tanks parked right on Russia's border would be to arm NAF and fight to Kiev. That's the only way.

Russia is already giving help to the rebels.. and no ..NATO will not be able to install any military
base in Ukraine with so many pro Russian resistance in Ukraine.. a simple Kornet missile will wipe
any Abram tank from 5km away.. so US cannot operate freely in Ukraine..there is too much
resistance .. What they have done is move to western Ukraine.. and send some mercenaries to help kiev..  

Really NATO army is not a threat for Russia.. you cannot invade Russia with an army... a simply tactical nuke will wipe it.. Baltic states are much near to Moscow than Ukraine.. and already NATO is there. what is a threat is the ABM missile shield.. because can be armed with nuclear weapons its warheads and used as missiles against Russia.

But Ukraine will never be a NATO member because that will force them to fight Russia and allow Ukraine to get NATO best equipment that Russia easily later can steal through spies.. there is too many support for Russia in Ukraine ,to become a NATO state. it will never happen.

Certainly not enough help to NAF. What does Obama give to FSA? Thousands of the latest TOW anti tank missiles. Russia has tens of thousands of Kornet anti tank missiles. Not one is given to NAF. No wonder why FSA is taking over Syria whereas Minsk 2 allows Maidanists to bomb Donbas with impunity.

As for Minsk 2. It's a farce. Even 1 year from now the people of Donbas will still be bombed day and night by Maidanists. Putin will still speak not a word about it.

Flagship Victory wrote:

Certainly not enough help to NAF. What does Obama give to FSA? Thousands of the latest TOW anti tank missiles. Russia has tens of thousands of Kornet anti tank missiles. Not one is given to NAF. No wonder why FSA is taking over Syria whereas Minsk 2 allows Maidanists to bomb Donbas with impunity.

The Rebels are well armed no worries about that.. you don't need advanced weapons to shutdown old T-80 and T-72 tanks.. and then you have artillery..can crush any tank modern or not.. Russia is not interested in anexxation of Donetsk and Lugansk.. but neither will allow
a major ethnic cleansing there of ethnic Russians by kiev.

Vann7 wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:
Americans do not care about financing a state of 40 million. They only care about parking Abrams tanks right on the border with Russia. They can already do this in places like Kharkov oblast. Time is the essense. The early bird catches the worm. Putin cannot afford to play the long game. American troops are already in Ukraine. The only way to prevent Abrams tanks parked right on Russia's border would be to arm NAF and fight to Kiev. That's the only way.

Russia is already giving help to the rebels.. and no ..NATO will not be able to install any military
base in Ukraine with so many pro Russian resistance in all Ukraine..and with an army armed with tanks ready to fight them.. a simple Kornet-D missile will wipe any Abram tank from 8km away.. or an apache helicopter at same distance..so US cannot operate freely in Ukraine..there is too much resistance loyal to Russia and that will be very well armed .It will be another vietnam war for the americans..but the resistance this time armed with modern weapons.. What they have done is move to western Ukraine.. and send hundreds of mercenaries undercover to help kiev..  

Really NATO army is not a threat for Russia.. you cannot invade Russia with an army... a simply tactical nuke will wipe it.. Baltic states are much near to Moscow than Ukraine..and if they wanted to suicide ,they could have done it.. decades ago..what is a threat for RUssia is the ABM missile shield.. because can be armed with nuclear weapons its warheads and used as missiles against Russia for a first strike preventive attack.

But Ukraine will never be a NATO member because that will force NATO to fight a war with Russia that cannot win , and allow Ukraine to get NATO best equipment that Russia easily later can steal through spies.. there is too many support for Russia in Ukraine ,to become a NATO state. it will never happen. and it will not happen because americans will not want it..

If a NATO member is attacked ,,and Americans do nothing ,that will destroy the credibility of the organization .and disband it.. so the possibilities of Ukraine being a NATO member is zero. Because no one will form in line to fight directly a nuclear powered nation like Russia..  

Don't even have to go nuclear. An FAE will wipe out everyone in a marshalling area, or take a good-sized chunk out of just about any formation.

Neutrality wrote:

sepheronx wrote:No, when you cant pay your bills, you get cut off. So effectively, Ukraine should have been cut off, but instead, Russia allowed contract to be overwritten and they now sell it at a discount. That is keeping kiev alive. Debt was supposed to be dealt with last year, and this year, Ukraine went past debt agreement on how much debt they can collect from IMF, which of course kiev broke and Russia once again did not call in the debt.

If they had cut off the gas completely, Kiev would simply steal gas that was meant for Europe (transit gas) and Moscow wouldn't be able to do anything at all. Let's hope Turkish Stream is on schedule and is finished on time so Moscow can get rid off this fucking headache for good.

Let's hope nothing happens with participants of Turkish stream - Turkey, Greece, Serbia, Makedonia and Hungary... Oh wait...