PAK-TA Supersonic Transport aircraft

Yeah, he'll be building it bare chested while riding a Bear

Firebird wrote:Garry, the Tu-244 had a 13ft diameter fuselage. A 1970s design to carry 300 passengers.
The Il-76 has a 16ft diameter fuselage. So they're already in the same ballpark.
BTW the Tu-244 was to use cryogenic fuel.

Moving into the far more exotic spaceplane designs.:-
One  Tu-2000 variant was started in 1986 and had a t/o weight of 360 tons and top speed Mach 24.
I *think* there was an even heavier variant (I can't find the page currently).

Taking all this cumulatively ie the ability to get extreme speed, Tu-160 lines reopening and the Tu-244's supersonic size, well I think a fast, fuel +cost efficient, large plane must be achievable in 2016.

Energiya had an alternative proposal for a spaceplane
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,220.0.html
8.3m fuselage width.

My wild guess is that conventional engines could get a slightly broader Tu-244 variant in the air.
And modern cryogenic fuel/scramjets could boost it and keep it at supersonic speeds.

They won't build dozens of these to transport sandbags and rations for 100,000 troops etc.
Just a few based on the Tu160M2 for absolute cutting edge equipment and some manpower.

Look how sending S-400s to Syria fucked up the Turks shitty ideas. It basically means turning selected sections of most of the world into no fly zones in a matter of hours. Beyond that, I suspect the doctrine/application will be much like Russia in Syria is today.

PS not totally relevant (as I'd go the Tu244 route) but this talks about weight, speed and fuel usage in spaceplanes etc

http://bit.ly/1MrpYbh

It is curious to see how some people that habitually is in the side of the American air superiority, tend to think that if something is not done by the Americans first is not doable, and tend to think that the state of the art remains the same since the 1980s (basically because the Americans did nothing better except in the stealth technologies).

Well I'm sure they will see something different by 2025. Russia is developing now 3 outstanding projects:

Tu-PAK-DA
MiG-41- PAK-DP
Il-PAK-TA

after to finnish successfully the Su-PAK-FA.

Taking all this cumulatively ie the ability to get extreme speed, Tu-160 lines reopening and the Tu-244's supersonic size, well I think a fast, fuel +cost efficient, large plane must be achievable in 2016.

In design terms there is not much that is difficult in making a supersonic large aircraft.

The Soviets had the Tu-144 and with a new generation engine based on the NK-32 they would likely have a very efficient aircraft... the problem is that it still would not be cheap and that is what the main bulk of passengers want... the lowest airfare... and to survive of course.

The point is that they have to make a choice... the F-22 could have been made a mach 3 fighter... as indeed could the the PAK FA.

The reason they weren't make mach 3 capable aircraft is because that would have greatly increased their development and purchase prices and made their operational costs horrendous without actually making them more effective in their primary role.

Being fast makes all sorts of problems like cooling electronics and human compartments much much harder.

For a large bomber having a supersonic dash capability could be very useful. A long range supercruise capability would be even better as it dramatically increases range and speed to target without greatly increasing cost or fuel consumption.

For an interceptor high speed is very useful so if we are going to see a very fast aircraft it will almost certainly not be a transport... it wont be a bomber either... it is most likely to be an interceptor... manned or otherwise.

This is a very interesting project. I expect to see the design of this project included in the State Armament Program 2018-2025. This project means to explore a new area and would not be a problem if the design stage is done in longer timeline than habitual.

As I understand it, this is a project for a different purpose than the habitual subsonic air transport. It means the work in subsonic air transport projects must continue in the succesful (demanded) cathegories.

For me, the Il-PAK-TA project of supersonic transport aircraft would be more interesting from a military point than the Tu-164 project of supersonic airliner.

eehnie wrote:For me, the Il-PAK-TA project of supersonic transport aircraft would be more interesting from a military point than the Tu-164 project of supersonic airliner.

Yes of course, militarily the first is relevant and the second not necessarily...

Honestly I do not see future for this project. I do not understand the pressing need for a supersonic transport (though I can understand that speed is good, especially in a country as big as Russia) and also think the volume required for a transport plane does not fit the aerodynamic requirements of efficient supersonic flight. The economic case of operating a fleet of supersonic PAK-TA has everything IMO to be a disaster:

1. Very high procurement costs per unit
2. Low payload and volume per unit
3. Derived from 2., high number of units needed
4. Huge operational costs when compared to conventional, high capacity airlifters moved by high-bypass engines.
5. Due to 4., no use except in case of emergency and need to have a parallel fleet of conventional transport planes.

As far as I can see, the ongoing transport aircraft and engine projects at the RF will offer a comprehensive and up-to-date fleet without the need of the PAK-TA

The way I see it what they most need is a comprehensively new plane at least Il-76 size, maybe about 1/2 way between Il-76 & An-124 to replace both.
Faffing around with supersonic seems nonsense, unless its somehow tied in with a new bomber, bunch of shared components.

This project would not be competence of the subsonic fleet of transport aircrafts that have an independent work in safe areas.

The main purpose of an aircraft like the supersonic Il-PAK-TA would be to become a tool, key tool, for fast deployment to friendly but contested areas. This kind of aircraft is unlikely to engage in rutine air transport operations.

At this point surely is more important to finish the development of the remaining subsonic transport and airliner aircrafts to complete the new generation of auxiliary aircrafts by 2025, to asure a renovation of the fleet, but the IL-PAK-TA project remains of interest in my view.

eehnie wrote:
This project would not be competence of the subsonic fleet of transport aircrafts that have an independent work in safe areas.

The main purpose of an aircraft like the supersonic Il-PAK-TA would be to become a tool, key tool, for fast deployment to friendly but contested areas. This kind of aircraft is unlikely to engage in rutine air transport operations.

At this point surely is more important to finish the development of the remaining subsonic transport and airliner aircrafts to complete the new generation of auxiliary aircrafts by 2025, to asure a renovation of the fleet, but the IL-PAK-TA project remains of interest in my view.

I see. Yeah, it may make sense to have a speed differential in order to attack points and gain a critical advantage before the enemy can protect them or avoid them overwhelming of the own under-protected sectors. But in that case it would be as you say complementary to the conventional transport fleet and therefore much smaller in scope than all the ongoing projects in the area. I think the realization of such initiative will follow the same fate as the renewed efforts to create supersonic commercial transports, since both depend on similar technologies in the end. Maybe variable-cycle engines, which shouldn't be very far away, would allow such a plane greater flexibility and therefore make a stronger economic case. But nevertheless by its own aerodynamic constraints, a supersonic plane will IMO not be capable in the mid term to reach the economy of use and mass / volume capability of a conventional airlifter and so will remain a niche-aircraft.

In any case, I find such figures as were made public in the past (200 tons payload, 2,000 km/h, 80 units in 2024) and the accompanying BWB hybrid concept totally out of touch with reality. Probably amidst modernization in the armed forces at the beginning of this decade, an initiative was started or at least discussed, contemplating the different shortcomings of the VTA in those days: need to modernize the outdated planes, substitute airframes running out of flying hours, avoid dependence from Ukraine and several other issues, with the aim of solving them through the creation of a new platform, the PAK-TA. From what we see many of those lines are still being pursued, even when no official requirements for a "PAK-TA" have been reported (or at least I am not aware of them). None of them until now is related to a supersonic transport from what we know, but there has been some insistence in versions of the Tu-160 and commercial supersonic planes, so maybe in the future those efforts can materialize and find some application in a military transport... will not hold my breath for it though