Is Putin a neocon?

This might sound preposterous at first, since we equate neocons with a specific faction with very specific goals against only few other factions , and we often ignore the fact that this is in fact an entire ideology of imperialist strategy. As I analyse United russia's ideological development and standpoints, I find some wierd and worrisome ideological analogies with our common enemy from the other side of the antlantic.
When I write check , it means both neocons and putin have directly(or indirectly expressed the same views)

1. Hatred for enviromentalists - they're percieved propagandized to be subverters used by the enemy faction or communists to destroy thier(in thier eyes) great bastion of capitalism. Check(Reagan's anti-green propaganda in the 80s, today's russian arrests of greenpeace, russian weariness of everything that has "green" in its name)

2. Constant praise of the "good ol' days"- an imperialistic past they percieve as to have been the pinnacle of their countries, ideological, military and cultural history(guilded age, roaring 20s, 1950s for US neocons, late russian empire by putin), ignoring all possible flaws of said times. Check

3. Belief of communist "stab in the back" subversion by opposing imperialist faction to have caused of end of said "good ol' days". Check(praise that McCarthy's actions were necessary by US neocons, Claims that germans used Bolsheviks to defeat russia in WW1 by Putin)Check

4. "Spreading democracy"(or atleast thier kind of what they percieve as democracy) to save the world from communism, liberalism(or whatever other scapegoat) is one of the main purpose of life for member of the ideology. Check.

5. Many members of neocon ideology formerly expressed leftist views or were part of leftist organisations(many jewish and US neocons were formerly trotskyists, Putin formerly served the USSR)check

6. Claims that their nation is(or will be) the last bastion of of their religious conservative values and free market while the rest of world is savagely overrun by communism, gay rights, atheism, muslims(Or any other percieved enemy) i.e. They're (or their bloc is) the current "Free World". Check

7. Subtle expressions that their country has the one true religion, or is favored by god, while their enemies are cursed or have abandoned their religious morality in favor of leftist "decadence" (God bless america and the perception of europe about go communist during Reagans, The ideal of the russian bastion of orthodoxy). While I haven' seen Putin directly expressing these views, a great many of members and voters of United Russia hold this claim dear.

This what through(my anticapitalist) perception has managed to sum up after for quite some time of observing the behavior of United Russia. Of course that doesn't remove my great respect for Putin's foreign polcy and his fight for corruption, I'm just expressing some of my doubts that haven't been cleared up.

You're welcome to rationally explain or show evidence that Putin and United Russia don't hold these analogous views. Please don't make this into a "you're attacking russia thread" since, as I say again this is about a politicians views, not russia itself.

kvs wrote:You lack actual examples to back up your thesis.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:
1. Hatred for enviromentalists - they're percieved propagandized to be subverters used by the enemy faction or communists to destroy thier(in thier eyes) great bastion of capitalism. Check(Reagan's anti-green propaganda in the 80s, today's russian arrests of greenpeace, russian weariness of everything that has "green" in its name)

Not checked.  The stink about some forest being cut for a highway near Moscow was a pure liberast hysteria operation.
They quickly forgot about the forest once they failed riding this pony to power in local elections.   I see no evidence that
environmentalism is somehow against "state dogma" in Russia.   I do not consider Belona and Greenpeace to be honest
environmentalists in the case of Russia.   They deliberately target Russian military and industrial assets and development.
I see no similar organized action from these "NGOs" aimed at western states.   Where is Belona in the USA?  When has
Greenpeace sent its ship to raid a US, British or Norwegian oil platform?

Fair enough(BTW don't mistake me for a greenpeace supporter, I have my own views on the enviromental situation and how it should be solved

It's checked only in your mind.  There is no official praise for the good old days in the Russian media.   That someone point out that there
have been high costs in the name of monetarist voodoo foisted on Russia by the Yeltsin regime does not back your point.

I'm not talking about the good ol' days of the USSR(those WERE, by the current standards of the working class caused by neoliberalism, good days) but the "good ol' days" of Czar Nikolai II's Russian empire(which were some of the worst days for russia).

What?!

Putin openly implied this year in front of a united russia youth organisation that the communists were traitors to russia because of stopping russia's participation in WW1.

What is Russia spreading?

Constant talk of how the rise of reactionary parties(UKIP and Le Pen) in europe are an example of how russia is influencing europe with its moral "superiority"

Weak and not valid.  The neocons were Trotskyist true believers.   Putin and everyone else of any rank in the USSR had to be a party member.
This says zero about their personal convictions.

Fair enough but keep in mind in the USSR it wasn't necessary at all to be a party member to make a living(many of my family members and friends weren't party members then but still got respectable jobs, some of them connected to the military)

You are confusing chatter by the western media and assorted nutjobs as official government policy.   It is a fictional narrative concocted by the
professional Russia hating western media that Putin is using the Orthodox Church in Russia to prop himself up.   This comes in the wake of the
Pussy Riot case.   These liberast maggots waved their asses at the iconostasis in a cathedral and disrupted service.   They were trespassing hooligans
and nothing more.   During all of their previous stunts the worst they got was a $17 fine.   They crossed the line and got the book thrown at them
so cry me a river.

Fair enough.

See above.  Is Putin not allowed to express his opinions.  Is he supposed to be like the Communist Party Genera Secretary?

The president of russia isn't allowed to express his opinions? What, is he like the queen of england?

Neocon's actually had an ideology about the fundamentalism of the free market system, and governnance.

Putin's ideology is steal steal until you can't steal no mo.

TR1 wrote:Neocon's actually had an ideology about the fundamentalism of the free market system, and governnance.

Putin's ideology is steal steal until you can't steal no mo.

Remind me again what he is stealing?

sepheronx wrote:

TR1 wrote:Neocon's actually had an ideology about the fundamentalism of the free market system, and governnance.

Putin's ideology is steal steal until you can't steal no mo.

Remind me again what he is stealing?

Money.

Ownership in state enterprises.

Jailing a few oligarchs while cozying up to the rest isn't a neocon governnance strategy.

TR1 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

TR1 wrote:Neocon's actually had an ideology about the fundamentalism of the free market system, and governnance.

Putin's ideology is steal steal until you can't steal no mo.

Remind me again what he is stealing?

Money.

Ownership in state enterprises.

Jailing a few oligarchs while cozying up to the rest isn't a neocon governnance strategy.

Well, jailing oligarches that had dirt on them isn't so bad.

Ownership of state enterprises? You mean state run organizations? How is this different than any other country that runs state enterprises?

But your right. He should jail all oligarches that actually have dirt on them. Not just select few.

sepheronx wrote:

TR1 wrote:Neocon's actually had an ideology about the fundamentalism of the free market system, and governnance.

Putin's ideology is steal steal until you can't steal no mo.

Remind me again what he is stealing?

BMW X3's

Has TR1 been watching too much Dozhd lately? Because if so that explains a lot of things, since that rain may have washed away some braincells...

I find it funny that people are interested more in what others are picking out of their nose rather to stick to their own findings.

TR1 wrote:Neocon's actually had an ideology about the fundamentalism of the free market system, and governnance.

Putin's ideology is steal steal until you can't steal no mo.

I know empirical observation is way above your cognitive faculties, but the neocon's ideology was the very definition of kleptocracy. Some Prima Facie cases of kleptocracy under the neocon's:

1.) Henry Paulson, the Secretary of the Treasury under the neocon Bush administration, and how he managed to gather the majority of the TARP bailout money meant and directed for AIG, and had it siphoned off to his former company none other than the infamous Goldman Sachs, the company that he held the position of CEO for:



2.) Dick Cheney gave no-bid contracts to Haliburton, his former company and they made $40 billion dollars from Cheney's slavish obedience:

Cheney's Halliburton Made $39.5 Billion on Iraq War


3.) The Chevron oil tanker named after the neocon Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice:

Chevron redubs ship named for Bush aide / Condoleezza Rice drew too much attention

...LOL oh please do posture more about how the neocon's aren't about rent-seeking lmao!

Putin is the worst thief through entire human history, he is so bad at thieving that the pensions rose, the statebudged rose, the average income of russians is still growing, most of the companies that were sold to western kleptocrats were returned, russia today earns money from its own oil, the taxes are freeking low, but TR1 says Putin steals steals and steals...you may have some respect for your military knowledge but in politics you are beyond biased it is just brainwashed.

Your analysis has a fundamental flaw... US Neocons rarely say what they actually think... remember most talk about spreading democracy and peace and security but we all know what BS that is... they are rich and in power and they will do anything and everything to keep things that way... no matter who they have to kill or how many countries they have to destroy.

1. Hatred for enviromentalists - they're percieved propagandized to be subverters used by the enemy faction or communists to destroy thier(in thier eyes) great bastion of capitalism. Check(Reagan's anti-green propaganda in the 80s, today's russian arrests of greenpeace, russian weariness of everything that has "green" in its name)

Putin doesn't hate the environment... he enjoys it. What he hates are puppets used by western powers to subvert and embarrass Russia through the international media.

Neocons don't hate greenies and the commies love them... they are like watermelon... green on the outside and red on the inside and mouth watering...

So uncheck.

2. Constant praise of the "good ol' days"- an imperialistic past they percieve as to have been the pinnacle of their countries, ideological, military and cultural history(guilded age, roaring 20s, 1950s for US neocons, late russian empire by putin), ignoring all possible flaws of said times. Check

Everyone over the age of about 30 pines for the good old days when things seemed simpler/better... even when they weren't.

Uncheck again.

Claims that germans used Bolsheviks to defeat russia in WW1 by Putin)Check

the Germans allowed Lenin to pass through their territory to get back to Russia when the time was right... they could have stopped him, but it was in their interests at the time to let him move through their territory.... remember he was a Russian and they were at war with Russia yet they didn't detain him... Uncheck again.

4. "Spreading democracy"(or atleast thier kind of what they percieve as democracy) to save the world from communism, liberalism(or whatever other scapegoat) is one of the main purpose of life for member of the ideology. Check.

US neocons have invaded multiple countries with the express wish to bring democracy... what has Putin done to impose democracy on other countries?

The conflict with georgia had nothing to do with bringing democracy to anyone and the same could be said about the crimea... they already had democracy in the crimea and used it to vote to join Russia. In South Ossetia Georgia attacked Russian peacekeepers.

uncheck.

5. Many members of neocon ideology formerly expressed leftist views or were part of leftist organisations(many jewish and US neocons were formerly trotskyists, Putin formerly served the USSR)check

Neoconservatives leftists? Are you drunk!

UNCHECK.

6. Claims that their nation is(or will be) the last bastion of of their religious conservative values and free market while the rest of world is savagely overrun by communism, gay rights, atheism, muslims(Or any other percieved enemy) i.e. They're (or their bloc is) the current "Free World". Check

That describes every elected or nonelected leader in every country on Earth... uncheck.

While I haven' seen Putin directly expressing these views, a great many of members and voters of United Russia hold this claim dear.

Your argument is that Putin is a neocon so this doesn't even register a check to uncheck.

Putin openly implied this year in front of a united russia youth organisation that the communists were traitors to russia because of stopping russia's participation in WW1.

Russia lost a large amount of western territory at the end of WWI... who would you blame?

Constant talk of how the rise of reactionary parties(UKIP and Le Pen) in europe are an example of how russia is influencing europe with its moral "superiority"

Is that because of Putin and Russia, or is it because the west is going too far in its imperial crap and even those within the system are realising it is no force for good like it claims it is and in many cases it is actively working to undermine the principles it claims to have.

But your right. He should jail all oligarches that actually have dirt on them. Not just select few.

Imagine what would happen if the first act of Hilary Clinton when she becomes the first female US president is to go around and have every person in charge of all the biggest companies in the US and all major land owners... ie the 1 percent in the US put in prison. The system would collapse. And likely none of them would end up in jail for long... she certainly would not remain in office long either.

GarryB wrote:Your analysis has a fundamental flaw... US Neocons rarely say what they actually think... remember most talk about spreading democracy and peace and security but we all know what BS that is... they are rich and in power and they will do anything and everything to keep things that way... no matter who they have to kill or how many countries they have to destroy.


Putin doesn't hate the environment... he enjoys it. What he hates are puppets used by western powers to subvert and embarrass Russia through the international media.

Neocons don't hate greenies and the commies love them... they are like watermelon... green on the outside and red on the inside and mouth watering...

So uncheck.

So you're into the green communist conspiracy too? Why is there such a mantra that it's so bad to be anticapitalist and enviromentalist at the same time? Oh wait the neocons spreaded this mantra. IDK how you connect neocons with envirmental organisations.

the Germans allowed Lenin to pass through their territory to get back to Russia when the time was right... they could have stopped him, but it was in their interests at the time to let him move through their territory.... remember he was a Russian and they were at war with Russia yet they didn't detain him... Uncheck again.

So you continue with this reactionary conspiracy theory. Lenin came to power because THE OVEWHELMING MAJORITY OF THE RUSSIAN POPULATION WAS FED UP WITH CAPITALISM AND USELESS WAR.

Russia lost a large amount of western territory at the end of WWI... who would you blame?

The Germans, the Poles, the western colonial empires. Russain capitalist reactionaries love to ignore the fact that before brest litovsk most of the territories ceded were already occupied by the german army as a result of the disastrous performance of the russian army commanded by it's mostly incompetent dvoryan generals.

sepheronx wrote:

TR1 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

TR1 wrote:Neocon's actually had an ideology about the fundamentalism of the free market system, and governnance.

Putin's ideology is steal steal until you can't steal no mo.

Remind me again what he is stealing?

Money.

Ownership in state enterprises.

Jailing a few oligarchs while cozying up to the rest isn't a neocon governnance strategy.

Well, jailing oligarches that had dirt on them isn't so bad.

Ownership of state enterprises?  You mean state run organizations?  How is this different than any other country that runs state enterprises?

But your right.  He should jail all oligarches that actually have dirt on them.  Not just select few.

If someones called an oligarch he automatically has dirt on him, he's an oligarch after.All Oligarchs haven't done a single good thing to russia, but United Russia is still into the mantra that they're the main driving force behind the economy(job creators) and should be pampered and given state influence(as long as they aren't openly treasonous like khodorkovsky), kind of like neocons do for the multinational megacorporations in the west.

The only problem is that he doesn't jail all dirty oligarchs and keeps quite a bunch of them in cozy places. But then again I doubt he is the one calling all the shots like western media claims. There is elite of siloviki in Russia and there are untouchable and powerful people. I even think that people who control Russian natural resources are not really interested in making Russia less dependent of export.

As I said, if an oligarch doesn't have have dirt then he wouldn't be an oligarch.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:As I said, if an oligarch doesn't have have dirt then he wouldn't be an oligarch.

x2
There is certainly a limit where person can earn money honestly by business. We are started with nothing after Soviet Union fell. Some of us got rich by hard work and some of us got mega rich by "luck".. 
I grew up with first oligarchs and their kids. I can say that there is not much difference between them and a gopnik.  
One Jewish oligarch(or gentlemen of luck) my family knew was an exception. He supported our basketball club where I was playing. From trips to abroad to basketballs(they were hard to get) to matching uniforms. Even food for poorer families of kids who were playing basketball. Probably he and his family what makes me sometimes to stand up for jews. He was shot in Russia in 2009. It only shows You that all your money has a long shadow.

So you're into the green communist conspiracy too? Why is there such a mantra that it's so bad to be anticapitalist and enviromentalist at the same time? Oh wait the neocons spreaded this mantra. IDK how you connect neocons with envirmental organisations.

I don't give a shit about the greenies... most of them live in big cities and express opinions on saving this or that animal because its cute. Half of them think animal "rights" are more important that the rights of humans. the communists loved the greenies because they were so easy to manipulate... all those stupid women protesting at greenham common against US cruise missiles was funded by all sorts of sources, but you can be sure the KGB certainly supported and encouraged their protests.

these days most large powerful green groups have become corporations... big business and are no better.

Putin doesn't like Greenpeace because they are not Green and have nothing to do with peace... they are a tool the US uses, along with other NGOs to destroy countries they want to plunder the resources of.

What I don't know is how Putin being portrayed in a bad light by Greenpeace somehow makes him a Neocon.

So you continue with this reactionary conspiracy theory. Lenin came to power because THE OVEWHELMING MAJORITY OF THE RUSSIAN POPULATION WAS FED UP WITH CAPITALISM AND USELESS WAR.

What would Russians know about capitalism? Under the Tsars they lived in a Feudal system and were either bound to the land owner that owned the land they worked or they were serfs.

Lenin got the chance to take power because the Germans allowed him to return to Russia.

The Germans, the Poles, the western colonial empires. Russain capitalist reactionaries love to ignore the fact that before brest litovsk most of the territories ceded were already occupied by the german army as a result of the disastrous performance of the russian army commanded by it's mostly incompetent dvoryan generals.

But if the Tsars were still in charge and nominally allies with teh UK, France, and the US, they would have been at the table for the carve up of Europe and Poland would not have escaped the Russian empire... remember it was the empires of the losing side that were dismembered.. france retained its empire... including what is now Vietnam, and of course so did the UK, so there is no reason to think Russia would not have retained Poland and other areas lost in the fighting.

If someones called an oligarch he automatically has dirt on him, he's an oligarch after.All Oligarchs haven't done a single good thing to russia, but United Russia is still into the mantra that they're the main driving force behind the economy(job creators) and should be pampered and given state influence(as long as they aren't openly treasonous like khodorkovsky), kind of like neocons do for the multinational megacorporations in the west.

You either have every company as being state run, or you allow people to become very rich and therefore powerful... there is no alternative at the moment. You can't arrest people for being too rich.

You can introduce and enforce anti monopoly laws.

The only problem is that he doesn't jail all dirty oligarchs and keeps quite a bunch of them in cozy places.

He does all this does he?

Personally?

Last time I looked there was a judicial system in Russia whose job it is to arrest people who have broken laws. Lots of US gangsters of the past and present try to hide their criminal activity and therefore stay out of jail... I would expect Russian criminals... especially very rich ones would likely do the same. Should Putin start putting people in jail personally without trial?

Funny that the people who call him a super mafia boss and demand he act like one... letting some female musicians go... like he arrested them personally or something.

But then again I doubt he is the one calling all the shots like western media claims. There is elite of siloviki in Russia and there are untouchable and powerful people. I even think that people who control Russian natural resources are not really interested in making Russia less dependent of export.

Western oil companies have made lots of money making the west a dependent customer of oil based products...

When the oil runs out, or becomes unviable, they will find another way to make money and it will become the new oil. Hopefully it will be cleaner and renewable.

We are started with nothing after Soviet Union fell. Some of us got rich by hard work and some of us got mega rich by "luck"..

There were people with power and money under communism... not all of them were communists, but when Soviet assets were sold for peanuts they were in a position to buy them up and strip them of assets and funds and then sell them on.

Buy a factory... take all the pensions for the workers, sell the tools and equipment worth selling and then fire all the workers and sell the land to developers... buy dirt cheap and sell for enormous profit... it is pretty obvious why some of these people are hated today.

In the Ukraine one of the claims was that the coup was to get rid of the oligarchs... and yet other oligarchs are elected to power.

Let me post a picture of the Tzar

the western media is truly Orwellian in its distortion of reality.

Indeed, I remember a US journalist who had 30 or 40 years experience who made the fundamental mistake of saying in public that she had some sympathy for the Palestinians... it made front page news and she was fired... talk about a thought crime... and it wasn't 1984 either... in many ways it is worse, but the apathy of the masses allows it to happen. What you gonna do?

Funny thing is so many of my friends say to me that if I love Russia so much why don't I move there... if I could speak Russian properly I would seriously consider it... Hell, if I was 25 years younger I would be thinking of joining the Russian Army...

GarryB wrote:

the western media is truly Orwellian in its distortion of reality.

Indeed, I remember a US journalist who had 30 or 40 years experience who made the fundamental mistake of saying in public that she had some sympathy for the Palestinians... it made front page news and she was fired... talk about a thought crime... and it wasn't 1984 either... in many ways it is worse, but the apathy of the masses allows it to happen.  What you gonna do?

Funny thing is so many of my friends say to me that if I love Russia so much why don't I move there... if I could speak Russian properly I would seriously consider it... Hell, if I was 25 years younger I would be thinking of joining the Russian Army...

That is the only "argument" people can bring and only for russia. When someone is day dreaming and loving US nobody says that. Westerners are so indoctrinated to believe it is such a bad place filled with only evil pevil communists and you would most probably die there 10 minutes after arriving. People are idiots, period.

VVP and rest of the country went through a very rapid transformation in last year, with UA crisis being the driver behind it.

Even with sanctions , rouble damn near hitting 50/$ (from ~32), it was all well worth it.

Like Russian Emperors of old, Putin and rest of us came to realize that West will always dislike, if not outright hate, Russia - it's been the case for centuries now, no matter the form of governance.

But West's most cynical support of Junta of Ukraine, total disregard for people's right to determine their future (Crimea, Donbass), ignoring war crimes with thousands of civilians killed by Junta troops and rise of Neo-Nazis - that was straw that broke the camel's back.

One word that sums our reaction is: "Really ?????!!!!".

Must revive the industrial base, bring back the key manufacturing, stop importing stuff that could be made better and cheaper at home. Punish the f*ck out EU for being mindless slaves of US by redirecting imports to Far East and Latin America (meats, fruits etc). Wait till summer vacation season comes around and Russians, instead of spending billion$ in EU, explore and enjoy vast country of their own - both due to high exchange rates and patriotism (very real).

We're secure militarily. The deterrence Triad assures that. Russia is the only country that can turn all of the West into nuclear wasteland.

All we want is for West to stop trying to turn our neighboring countries/allies/ex-USSR republics into Libya/Syria/Iraq. West can still have the rest of the world (at least those too dumb/weak to resist) to itself.

Sounds like a good & fair deal, no ?

GarryB wrote:

What would Russians know about capitalism? Under the Tsars they lived in a Feudal system and were either bound to the land owner that owned the land they worked or they were serfs.

Lenin got the chance to take power because the Germans allowed him to return to Russia.

The feudal system was largely abolished back in 1862. During WW1 the  peasents and working class were living under predatory domestic bourgeois or western investor capitalist system and orthodox church extortion.

If Lenin wasn't there some other anticapitalist would've taken power. The populace was fed up with the disgusting aristocracy, church , the anglosaxon war and the capitalists.

But if the Tsars were still in charge and nominally allies with teh UK, France, and the US, they would have been at the table for the carve up of Europe and Poland would not have escaped the Russian empire... remember it was the empires of the losing side that were dismembered.. france retained its empire... including what is now Vietnam, and of course so did the UK, so there is no reason to think Russia would not have retained Poland and other areas lost in the fighting.

Look at happened to italy after the war. Were they compensated fairly? Also didn't you say one time that the anglosaxons always percieved Russia as a threat to their empire. Would you seriously believe they would've held up to their promises to the russians?

If someones called an oligarch he automatically has dirt on him, he's an oligarch after.All Oligarchs haven't done a single good thing to russia, but United Russia is still into the mantra that they're the main driving force behind the economy(job creators) and should be pampered and given state influence(as long as they aren't openly treasonous like khodorkovsky), kind of like neocons do for the multinational megacorporations in the west.

You either have every company as being state run, or you allow people to become very rich and therefore powerful... there is no alternative at the moment. You can't arrest people for being too rich.[/quote]

You can introduce and enforce anti monopoly laws.[/quote]
That's because russia is a capitalist oligarchy. If the government started being controlled by Russia's  99%, we would immediately see the rich shock therapy 90's dogshit(be them pro- or anti- russian including Putin, they will always have their personal profit not the working class or russia's less able which are the majority)

Last time I looked there was a judicial system in Russia whose job it is to arrest people who have broken laws. Lots of US gangsters of the past and present try to hide their criminal activity and therefore stay out of jail... I would expect Russian criminals... especially very rich ones would likely do the same. Should Putin start putting people in jail personally without trial?

Anyone who participated, supported or benefited from  the neoliberal anglosuxon shitstain governemnt of Yeltsin(including all of united russia's capitalist siloviks and Putin)  shouldn't be only charged, they should be shot in the head a la Yezhovshtina. Nobody who participated in policies ruining the lives of dozens of millions of people, supporting imperialism and genocide of the empire of chaos, acting 300% contrary to national interests, and causing several times more destruction to the country's economy and population  than caused during a war that wiped out 15% of your population.