Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

sepheronx wrote:Dunno what to say, at least they are trying.  Workstations are probably the biggest need as they are used for multitude of things from basic servers, to VM, CAD, research, etc.  These are what companies use.  I use them from time to time and love workstations, all types of them.  These are what will be making MCST the most money is sales of processors for workstation system, and for servers.  Personal desktop use, well, the Elbrus 8C may be exactly what they need but they need to have much better x86 emulation cause well, Windows has full control and since they own the market, it will become nearly impossible to compete.  So in other words, if they can create a processor that is good at x86, which is important for Windows, then they can also get into the basic desktop market.  There is the concept that they could end up lets say creating a game console with even the 8C (although, that would be totally overkill, so maybe a different processor could suffice) and tap into the video game market.  I mean, making a game console would not be challenging and since game consoles rely on heavy integration of software to hardware translation (making as efficient as possible), then it may not be a problem developing games for it, especially since the hardware does not change.  But I think that even the ARM processor may be better inclined for that type of task than the VLIW processor.

Yes, I agree, they need more end products using these processors.  But even major companies like Motorola have now gone to ARM development as well, since their CISC processor development has not changed since the 90's.

Vann7 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Dunno what to say, at least they are trying.  Workstations are probably the biggest need as they are used for multitude of things from basic servers, to VM, CAD, research, etc.  These are what companies use.  I use them from time to time and love workstations, all types of them.  These are what will be making MCST the most money is sales of processors for workstation system, and for servers.  Personal desktop use, well, the Elbrus 8C may be exactly what they need but they need to have much better x86 emulation cause well, Windows has full control and since they own the market, it will become nearly impossible to compete.  So in other words, if they can create a processor that is good at x86, which is important for Windows, then they can also get into the basic desktop market.  There is the concept that they could end up lets say creating a game console with even the 8C (although, that would be totally overkill, so maybe a different processor could suffice) and tap into the video game market.  I mean, making a game console would not be challenging and since game consoles rely on heavy integration of software to hardware translation (making as efficient as possible), then it may not be a problem developing games for it, especially since the hardware does not change.  But I think that even the ARM processor may be better inclined for that type of task than the VLIW processor.

Yes, I agree, they need more end products using these processors.  But even major companies like Motorola have now gone to ARM development as well, since their CISC processor development has not changed since the 90's.

Sales are important.. but perception is the most.  Russia needs to create the perception they can provide an
very good alternative at least or totally replace USA for the needs of any nation..  

That Russia not only can sell them energy they need or the military weapons.. but also that Russia can provide
the needs of its society too..

IF Russia for example..
1)Develop a very decent computer with its software an alternative that what US offers..
it doesn't need to be the fastest ,just a decent one..
2)Goes to mars in a manned program and or deploy a base in the moon years earlier than anyone else.
3)become stronger in movie industry and game industry..
4)Release a Smart phone that people camp in front of stores for weeks to get it..

All those things are not impossible for Russia but very doable things that Russia could do if they spend the same
energy they used in Sochi to achieve all those things. Such things will be very powerful and extremely influential ..and will effectively replace USA ,as the technology leader. and will drive away many nations from Europe ,away of NATO and EU and attract a massive invasion of Investors to Russia,mayor business will start and a wave of scientist and engineers ,but also students talent..that will want to work with Russia.  Imagine if Russia develop space tourism to the moon at affordable prices? wouldn't something like that eclipse disney world?   as the #1 tourist attraction?      Absolutely.. People will travel to the space center in Russia in the millions just to see the space flights to the moon and follow everything on realtime on TV. thats what Russia needs.. to show the world they are much more than a gas station and weapons store. The more developed and modern is Russia..the more easier for others will be to switch from the west to the east.

Revenue of the electronic industry will increase by 9 times
Held a government meeting on the prospects of domestic microelectronics



Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev held a meeting "Status and prospects of the domestic microelectronics." The meeting discussed measures to promote domestic production of microelectronics special and civil development program up to 2015, as well as issues of state regulation of the Russian market of electronics.

The meeting was also attended by Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation Arkady Dvorkovich and Dmitry Rogozin, Russian presidential aide on economy Andrei Belousov, head of Industry and Trade Denis Manturov, the Ministry of Health Veronika Skvortsov, Russian Academy of Sciences Vladimir forts and the Federal Agency Mikhail Kotyukov scientific organizations, representatives of the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Communications and the mayor of Moscow, Sergei Sobyanin, and CEO "Roselektronika" , member of the Public Chamber of the Russian Federation, Chairman of the Public Council under the Ministry of Industry Andrei Zverev.

Today, the development of electronic industry is carried out in accordance with the Strategy for the development of electronic industry in Russia for the period up to 2025 and the state program "Development of electronic and electronic industry in the years 2013-2025", as well as scientific and technical programs of the Union State.

The main goal of the state policy in the field of electronic industry - increasing its level of technology to the world, the growth of competitiveness of products in the domestic and global markets, the press service of the holding "Roselektronika."

According to the program in 2025 is planned to achieve the following main indicators of the level of 2011:

- 2.7-fold increase in the share of domestic products in the world market and by 2.5 times - in the domestic market
- the growth of labor productivity by 6.5 times;
- increase by 3 times the amount of jobs created;
- increase by 6.4 times the volume of production of the domestic electronic products in monetary terms;
- increase 9 times earnings enterprises of electronic industry;
- increase in exports by 3.9 times.

Funding for the program from the federal budget is 175.1 billion rubles, extrabudgetary funding - 315.9 billion rubles.

In a special segment electronics focuses on the development of strategically important technologies that define the appearance of promising models of weapons. In this case, the priority areas of development include: design and manufacture of radiation resistant electronic components; development and manufacture of microwave components; development of the design components that determine the key characteristics of weapons systems; microelectronic technology levels up to 0,022 / 0,020 nm; technology of three-dimensional integrated circuits.

Discussed measures to support domestic microelectronics dealt mainly with customs procedures.

Dmitry Medvedev at the meeting said that we can talk about simplifying import and export of spare parts and consumables microelectronics, instrumentation, process equipment, as well as, perhaps, and the abolition of import duties on the materials and equipment.

In order to stimulate the Russian sector of the market will need to focus on the promotion of Russian civilian goods. "First of all we are talking about using them in the passport and visa documents, migration, transport, payment and other cards that Russian production of microchips used," - said Dmitry Medvedev.

CEO of the holding "Roselektronika" Andrei Zverev said that increased production and tax incentives will help reduce the cost, and if the domestic industry will be able to compete successfully in a civil demand, for example by producing elements for medical equipment and communications equipment.

http://rostec.ru/news/4514722

sepheronx wrote:BTW, russia now has the abilitay (or at least soon) to build machinery that makes semiconductors with a topology of 10nm. So in other words, they could effectively build a FAB that can build these processors. It is of course a rusnano/dutch jv.

sepheronx wrote:Why do I care? TMSC makes Russian processors too. MCST is a fabless facility hence it is about architecture. Your views of microprocessor technology is barbaric as you think more transistors is all that counts. Which isnt the case. Like I said, look up Elbrus 4C performance against core i7 in terms of GOST performance. Clearly gost was designed around elbrus processor and hence it outperformed a more transistor processor as i7, at only 700mhz.

Just so you know, there is a reason why Fujitsu still makes processors, loongsong and VIA.  Specialization. But you probably already knew that.

BTW, Elbrus wont have much competition once Intel is forced to stop selling in Russia. So MCST will have a full market available. As well, Epbrus architecture has many security features apparently that others dont, and can be used for other purposes. Hence why its used for military applications.

s well: http://m.rbth.com/science_and_tech/2014/07/10/russian_microprocessor_firms_to_challenge_intel_and_amd_on_d_38095.html after 8C, they are working on a 16core processor below 20nm tech. So that should make you happy.

As well: http://zoom.cnews.ru/publication/item/51820/3

This proves that if a peice of software is optimized around a specific.architecture, that the processor can do better in performance than its raw power counterpart.

sepheronx wrote:Nah, that was 2C+ which uses dsp cores as well that a full system cost was a wopping $3000 but that is due to the fact the CPU itself is made in low numbers and only for radar technology.

Btw, read that other article I posted about history of Elbrus. You will get a good understanding on how it works and where they came from and were they are going.

As for Intel. I wouldnt put too much faith in its performance claims as neither they or amd ever give accurate measurements. Actually, mcst is the same. Cause their measurements are based upon their tests and specific software that may be programmed around that architecture. You see this for years.

The article also goes around the cisc and risc. And as you may happen to know, vliw is another risk type, not cisc. So comparing intel and amd to mcst is comparing them to intel, loongsong, fujitsu, oracle... it is different ballpark. So it is MCST aiming to conpete with those groups rather than intel and amd. But that is also because you may never see mcst past cis countries or in west.

sepheronx wrote:It is apples to oranges.

It hasto compete against Itanium and the like. In its field, these processors are just different. RISC but with two instructions - x86 and some sort of proprietary security.

Price? God knows. Probably a lot unless they mass produce them. It will be used for hpc and workstations for various enterprises and goverenment. Like how Synergy OS is being built by various Russian companies.

Intel will still reign supreme on the common consumer market as these may not be available only to specifics. That is the drawback of mcst.

I myself prefer AMD. If only they just decided to drop bulldozer... but in the end, my next workstation will probabaly be a sparc. I worked with them before and prefered them over amd/intel. Also, boo windows. No real alternative though.

If MCST would aim at basic consumer market, then chances are they would have just developed a CISC processor or arm instead. Baikal will be basic consumer market and it will just be an arm like you mentioned.

No real major innovation, which sucks imo.

sepheronx wrote:I know Russian developers have been looking into carbon and well, alternatives to silicon. But it seems they are more interested in 3d designs. So things may be interesting in the future.

What AMD has going for them is their APU. They played that very smart.

magnumcromagnon wrote:

sepheronx wrote:BTW, russia now has the abilitay (or at least soon) to build machinery that makes semiconductors with a topology of 10nm. So in other words, they could effectively build a FAB that can build these processors. It is of course a rusnano/dutch jv.

What's your thoughts about the article I posted on the previous page?

HT-R1000 - MCST Elbrus laptop

CPU - R1000
Clock - 760-1000 MHz
RAM - 4 GB
VideoRAM - 16 MB
Display - 15",1024x768
2,5" SSD SATA - 32 GB or better
Military hardware group - 1.10 (GOST RV 20.39.304-98)
Class 2 protection against unauthorized access to the information
GLONASS receiver integrated
Power - integrated battery 8.8Ah, 7,4 V
Dimensions - 372x338x82
Weight - 10 kg or less