Promising destroyer "Lider-class"

14 000 ton nuclear monster coming up from 2017


Russia will provide a new type of destroyer "Leader" in 2017

Big_Gazza wrote:An artists impression of the latest Leader design.



wait a sec...  where have I seen this before?....  

Looks like one of those ghost ships in movies, traveling through the oceans since hundreds of years, some monterosity..

Werewolf wrote:Looks like one of those ghost ships in movies, traveling through the oceans since hundreds of years, some monterosity..

The ship shown was the IJN Kirishima, a WW1 era Kongo-class battlecruiser rebuilt as a fast battleship in the 1930s, and sunk in Guadalcanal in the last battleship duel of WW2.

I posted it in a (lame) attempt at humour to equate the old "pagoda" superstructure with modern stealth designs depicting high masts. I guess the intent was lost... oh well... such is life

Hopefully if it is successful it might encourage them to consider other upgrades with new NPPs... that will bypass the bottleneck of gas turbine production/development with the loss of Ukrainian GTs and encourage the development of new more powerful NPPs for ships and subs.

Big_Gazza wrote:

Werewolf wrote:Looks like one of those ghost ships in movies, traveling through the oceans since hundreds of years, some monterosity..

The ship shown was the IJN Kirishima, a WW1 era Kongo-class battlecruiser rebuilt as a fast battleship in the 1930s, and sunk in Guadalcanal in the last battleship duel of WW2.

I posted it in a (lame) attempt at humour to equate the old "pagoda" superstructure with modern stealth designs depicting high masts.  I guess the intent was lost...  oh well... such is life

The pagoda looks much more tame than on the Lider model. But it sure looks scary from the front.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:Why is such a big mast necessary anyway, except making a ship with one incredibly hideous? Will russian future radars really be so bulky that they need this big christmas tree thingy to carry them?

The higher the mast is the further away you can see in the horizon.

Mast are generally bulky of you want all the Big Aperture for AESA , the bigger mast is directional propotional to the size of AESA array , if you need more number of arrays for a wider scan of view the size would be bigger.

Check the latest Indian Destroyer P-15A mast size

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Ix86hW_4iHA/U7-2Og5P4LI/AAAAAAAAWyk/F-jNASX025g/s1600/IMG_7772.JPG

Another photo of an unique and unconventional concept model taken from the Krylov State Research Centre last month. Although it's still very early to tell I see two ways in which the design of the Leader class might be. As a lower estimate, it will probably be a destroyer with a displacement of at least 7000+ tons, armed with 60+ VLS cells and 150+ meters long. The characteristics of this destroyer design would be conventionally similar to India's Kolkata-class and China's Type 052D class destroyers which are both armed with 64 VLS cells. These destroyers were designed to complement their modern Shivalik-class and the Type 054A frigates which both navies respectively operate, and they share similar dimensions to the Gorshkov-class frigate such as all three have 32 VLS cells and have a similar displacement of 4000 tons. India's and China's destroyers are also more heavily armed than contemporary European destroyers which most are only armed with around 40+ VLS cells, as their destroyers are designed according to the capabilities of their frigates. Should the future Russian Navy or budget require the Leader class destroyer to follow similar principles then it'll likely have similar characteristics to the Koltata class and the Type 052D.

The higher estimate is that the Leader-class will be designed as modern heavily armed cruiser-esque destroyer. If this is the criteria then it will very likely have a displacement of 9000+ tons, armed with 90+ VLS cells, and 155+ meters long. From this estimate, it's quite possible that the design criteria will follow elements with other similar modern heavy destroyer classes that are in development or completed, such as Sejong the Great, Arleigh Burke flight III, Zumwalt, or the Type 055 which are blurring the line between destroyers and cruisers for their large size and armament.

From this, I think the class is likely going for either the lower or higher estimates or somewhere between both depending on the requirements, budgeting, and priorities. From official details already given, the Leader-class will either have a strong air defence capability like those prioritised on contemporary western destroyers or the traditional focus on anti ship/submarine warfare as prioritised on Russia's older large surface combatants, or a balance between both depending on the future naval doctrine. Which ever is the true dimensions and characteristic are in the future, the class is symbolic of the new forth generation large surface ships for the Russian Navy.

I think nuclear power is a must for these new destroyers.
Russia would be able to project power for a longer time further away from home.

If you want carrier groups for power projection then it is critical that each component is able to keep up with the rest of the fleet.

No point having a carrier that can do 30knts if your air defence frigates can only do 30knts for 3,000 nautical miles and then need to be refuelled.

Russian destroyer design revealed

http://www.janes.com/article/51453/russian-destroyer-design-revealed

A new class of destroyer for the Russian Navy is currently under development by the Krylov State Research Center (KSRC), IHS Jane's was told during a visit to the company.

The new design is called Project 23560E or Shkval (Squall), KSRC's deputy director, Valery Polyakov, who added that a scale model of the design is going to be exhibited for the first time during the International Maritime Defence Show 2015 in St Petersburg from 1-5 July.

"The Project 23560E destroyer is intended to conduct operations in off-shore maritime and oceanic zones, to destroy land and naval targets, to provide combat stability to naval forces, to maintain area anti-air and anti-missile defence, and to complete peacetime tasks in all zones of the world's oceans," said Polyakov.

The Project 23560E destroyer has full-load displacement of 15,000-18,000 tons, a length of 200 m, beam of 23 m, draft of 6.6 m, high speed of 32 kt, cruise speed of 20 kt, endurance of 90 days, and a crew of 250-300.

The destroyer is intended to be powered by a gas turbine engine (although Russia currently lacks any adequate sources for naval gas turbines). It is proposed to be fitted with a battle management system integrated with tactical and operational-tactical ACSs.

The destroyer's armament comprises 60-70 anti-ship or anti-land cruise missiles, 128 surface-to-air missiles (SAMs), and 16-24 anti-submarine missiles. The ship is also equipped with a 130 mm multipurpose naval gun.

The destroyer's integrated electronic package includes a multi-functional phased array radar, electronic warfare subsystem, communications suite, underwater reconnaissance system. The aviation wing consists of two utility helicopters. These specifications could all be changed to suit customer requirements however, Polyakov stated.

Would've been extremely cool if the shitty looking pagoda mast had the form of the gorshkov or kirov classes... BTW there doesn't seem to be much room for many CIWS turrets. I'll be very dissapointed if there are less than 6 Kashtan turrets without pantsir...

I suspect for future vessels a more stealthy Pantsir and perhaps klintock replacement Morfei system might be used... the latter being an ASRAAM like vertical launch lock on after launch weapon effectively functionally similar to Sea RAM but with vertical launch.

KSRC is only making destroyer/cruiser design proposals since a set of requirements haven't been issued yet by the navy. This is not the final design or its final requirements since other proposed models were showcased. I highly doubt the armament is going to be like that of Kirov if there's a plan for 10 or more units. If the class, as a next generation large combatant vessel, is aimed to slowly replace older destroyers and is required for mass production, then its design criteria is likely still subjected to change and debate. As of now, the possible requirements for nuclear propulsion, integration of the Poliment-Redut air defense system and Pantsir-M and Palash weapon systems, are the only things we know of this project.

Gents, i'm trying to educate myself on this subject (future VMF destroyers i mean). So if i may pick your brains, what is the relation between the Severnoe DB project 21956 and the KSRC project 23560? Would they be competing or complementary projects? Or perhaps VMF is interested in only the 23560 (i know the E is for export, but presumably it's been designed aimed at the Leader program)?

To me, based on what i can read, they sound very complementary, you have the top tier Shkval at 15-18,000 tons which may be equipped with naval version of S-500 in addition to long range AShMs and other systems, while the 21956 at 9,000 tons would fit perfectly between it and the Gorshkovs, it looks like the version proposed for export would be fitted with the Rif-M SAM system, but perhaps  a russian version would have  a naval version of S-400 system in it's place?

They're both likely competing proposals, along with other concept designs shown before, aimed for a future destroyer program like the Leader-class project. But for now none of the designs seem to have officially been chosen. And it'll be a while until the Navy starts the program since the current priority for surface ship acquisition is getting the new frigates constructed and commissioned for the next 5 years or so. This mean there might be more design proposals down the line, if there are specific requirements given such as its potential mission suite, tonnage, dimension, or cost limit.

If the VMF has already started examining designs for the Leader program then a design like Project 21956 proposal seems like a realistic option to construct 10+ units from, and a fitting successor to the Udoloy, Sov destroyers and Slava cruisers. At 9000+ tonnes its very likely a less burden on spending and can easily allow intergration of modern systems from the Gorshkov and Grigorovich frigate classes. By the time the destroyer program starts, the new frigate's systems and technologies  will be matured.

In comparison, a class like 23560 will likely lead to a very expensive program and you might be able to afford two 9000 ton destroyers for the price of one cruiser or heavy destroyer. Technologies and systems to support 23560 likely needs extensive time for testing as well. Unless there's another long term program for a Kirov successor, a 15-18000 ton destroyer design can only be built for a few units and not a sufficient number to succeed the older vessels. The Zumwalt program and the cancellation of the DD-21 is an example how running costs can bite on such over-demanding naval projects. The U.S wanted the DD-21 to replace the Tico cruisers and the Zumwalt to replace the Arleigh Burkes, but ultimately those plans ended until the construction of only 3 units of Zumwalt destroyers.

In RN Leaders are to replace Slavas, Kirovs so this consitutes min number of ships.

My educated guess is that the role of Leaders  will be to :
a) create marine Arctic ABM
b) Being core of Russian Task Force at least until Aircraft Carriers appear

So upper range of series depends on Imperial needs of power projection - like peace operations saving Afro-Americans from police in Fort Ross or penguins near  Newfoundland or just ensuring a fair referendum to return to Argentina


I wonder why no 152mm gun/guns mentioned?

Austin wrote:Russian destroyer design revealed

http://www.janes.com/article/51453/russian-destroyer-design-revealed

A new class of destroyer for the Russian Navy is currently under development by the Krylov State Research Center (KSRC), IHS Jane's was told during a visit to the company.

....

They just improved and modernized the design

TheArmenian wrote:

Austin wrote:Russian destroyer design revealed

http://www.janes.com/article/51453/russian-destroyer-design-revealed

A new class of destroyer for the Russian Navy is currently under development by the Krylov State Research Center (KSRC), IHS Jane's was told during a visit to the company.

....

They just improved and modernized the design

That is simply absurd....

The vessel clearly requires a catamaran hull.... /sarc off

it's clearly a photoshop on the original image

Tyloe wrote:it's clearly a photoshop on the original image

What preposterous claim, don't you see this ship was designed to be commanded by 6 admirals!

According to Tass, the MoD confirmed that nuclear propulsion is now an official requirement thanks to the latest changes to the technical assignment for the destroyer program. The option for gas-turbine engines appears to be cancelled. Severnoye design bureau is currently working on a new concept following the technical requirements given and plan to complete it by next year. Whether the bureau is assigned for the final design is not known. Meanwhile the navy plans to order at least 12 units and slowly replace the Sovremennyy and Udaloy class destroyers, firstly those of Northern and Pacific Fleets. The need for nuclear power may show the class is required to have unlimited endurance so it can be deployed for maritime operations further abroad. Range appears to be an important aspect of the program.

http://tass.ru/en/russia/795458