The Situation in the Ukraine. #4

Stop dispute Vladimir the Great. They have a plan. What do you think that he is an afromonkey or something?

sepheronx wrote:

Strizh wrote:Now the west will act even more aggressive against Russia. Because hey the sanctions worked we can control Russia now.

I bet Central Bank put pressure. Because sanctions would have helped domestic enterprises big time.

Screw him. He really screwed up big time here. And Sanctions would have barely hurt Russia besides banking sector. I really bet it is them.

We dont know whats the deal about just jet. Have patience young padawan    for few more days before you decide about Putins fate

Hannibal Barca wrote:Stop dispute Vladimir the Great. They have a plan. What do you think that he is an afromonkey or something?

This is not the time for some backdoor plans Sepheronx explained it very well. He simply betrays the people in the east.

etaepsilonk wrote: 
Merkel angry because parades on May 9 in the Crimea

German Chancellor Angela Merkel expressed regret scheduled for May 9 military parade in the Crimea. "Several years ago, on May 9, I was in Moscow to demonstrate that history can teach us anything. Therefore, it seems to me a sad fact that in the region, located in the middle of a crisis, the parade will take place," - said Merkel journalists agency EFE.

"History can teach us anything".. WTF. One fucked up bitch. In other words, that bitch will try and teach "any kind of (false) history".

You know with those bastards in Germany, its almost like they consider the Great Patriotic War/WW2 a "spent conviction".
ie because it was a while ago, it never existed "any more".

Old Germans, I used to find were vile. Then younger ones... *generally* became more tolerable.
Now you've got a new lot, probably led by older scum like Merkel. THey deny the atrocities of the Germans and have started weaving some alternate history.

That wrinkle faced hag needs to watch its ugly mouth...  

Viktor wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Strizh wrote:Now the west will act even more aggressive against Russia. Because hey the sanctions worked we can control Russia now.

I bet Central Bank put pressure. Because sanctions would have helped domestic enterprises big time.

Screw him. He really screwed up big time here. And Sanctions would have barely hurt Russia besides banking sector. I really bet it is them.

We dont know whats the deal about just jet. Have patience young padawan    for few more days before you decide about Putins fate

I doubt there is anything. He got pressured and thats all. He backed down. He supports Assad but not his own people or relatives in Ukraine? No deal is good until those in power in Ukraine is gone, and US admits to their bullshit. All other deals are simply put, ignorable as they will be.

Remember, NATO eastsrn expansion. Just remember that.

I hope Putin changes his mind and puts even more pressure on west and Ukraine.

sepheronx wrote:

Strizh wrote:Now the west will act even more aggressive against Russia. Because hey the sanctions worked we can control Russia now.

I bet Central Bank put pressure. Because sanctions would have helped domestic enterprises big time.

Screw him. He really screwed up big time here. And Sanctions would have barely hurt Russia besides banking sector. I really bet it is them.

He's either gonna end up as "Vladimir the Great" or "Vladimir the Chicken".

I sure as hell hope it wont be the latter...

PS if he's really motivated by sanctions threats, he needs to take a step back... and resign, IMO.
Sanctions cant do fuck all, IMO.

sepheronx wrote:I doubt there is anything. He got pressured and thats all. He backed down. He supports Assad but not his own people or relatives in Ukraine? No deal is good until those in power in Ukraine is gone, and US admits to their bullshit. All other deals are simply put, ignorable as they will be.

Remember, NATO eastsrn expansion. Just remember that.

I hope Putin changes his mind and puts even more pressure on west and Ukraine.

Nothing ?

In EP required to recognize "the right sector" terrorist organization

much will be said about this deal in the next few days maybe even several but Putin position in Ukraine was strong and that position would not be compromised for nothing.

Putin struck an aragment with the Europeans not Americans - dont forget that and remember that we dont have any info to conclude what happened!

Firebird wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Strizh wrote:Now the west will act even more aggressive against Russia. Because hey the sanctions worked we can control Russia now.

I bet Central Bank put pressure. Because sanctions would have helped domestic enterprises big time.

Screw him. He really screwed up big time here. And Sanctions would have barely hurt Russia besides banking sector. I really bet it is them.

He's either gonna end up as "Vladimir the Great" or "Vladimir the Chicken".

I sure as hell hope it wont be the latter...

PS if he's really motivated by sanctions threats, he needs to take a step back... and resign, IMO.
Sanctions cant do fuck all, IMO.

Sanctions mean nothing. He is a coward.

He better come up with some surprise or I am betting a lot of Russians will be mad. Im mad that he abandoned people in the region where some of my family comes from.

I really hope that he comes up with something!!! This is not the president I want.

Viktor wrote:

sepheronx wrote:I doubt there is anything. He got pressured and thats all. He backed down. He supports Assad but not his own people or relatives in Ukraine? No deal is good until those in power in Ukraine is gone, and US admits to their bullshit. All other deals are simply put, ignorable as they will be.

Remember, NATO eastsrn expansion. Just remember that.

I hope Putin changes his mind and puts even more pressure on west and Ukraine.

Nothing ?

In EP required to recognize "the right sector" terrorist organization

much will be said about this deal in the next few days maybe even several but Putin position in Ukraine was strong and that position would not be compromised for nothing.

Putin struck an aragment with the Europeans not Americans - dont forget that and remember that we dont have any info to conclude what happened!

And? So the agreements can be what? Lets see:
- no more sanctions and reversal of current ones? Oh boy, thats great. Then that shows they were pressured and anyway, samctions would have boosted Russuan trade with other countries as well as create a new economy, far away from natural resources.
- no expansion of NATO in Ukraine? I heard that before....
- seeing RS as terror group? What good does that do? Regardless, everyone will hate Russia anyway, no matter if they are terror group or not.

Most to every deal can be chucked away at a later date. Losing Ukraine is usually a done deal for a long time, longer than the use of these agreements.

The "Terror group" thing is BS it was suggested by one person.

In the meantime :/ when Putin abounds his people, Shabia thugs are patrolling Mariupol and shooting people in their feet.
youtube.com/v/zTOF5mH0AIs

Ps:
Could somebody give me the right to post links, Thanks?

That, and any gov that is in Ukraine soon that is part of a deal in being neutral, can be overthrown again by anotger colored revolution.

Too many gullible people.

I know, we need to wait and see. But any respect for Putin on my end is all gone.

Russia never had Ukraine. From 2003/4 Orange revolution to pro-EU Janukovic to nazi Maidan USA sponsored terrorist government.

There where never Russian option in the Ukraine. Dont get me wrong, perhaps you are right and perhaps you are not but Im just saying that we must wait few more days to fully

understand what happened there.

People shouldn't jump to conclusions with little evidence to back them up, countless people said Putin was looking weak before the Crimean referendum and during the Sochi Olympics, then we saw massive defections, let's wait to see what happens after the Victory Day parade because there's a chance that a event happens in the same pattern. Who's to say that Russia didn't strike a deal with China to come in as a neutral party with soft power, like offering to finance a fast rail network through South/East Ukraine where there's manufacturing and the ports to boost it's economy with jobs, with pre-conditions that there's a peaceful settlement, with the only likely solution if they were given autonomy to maintain peace. Kiev can be ran by West Ukrainians while South/East Ukraine could be ran by Pro-Russians, I mean who seriously believe the EU has the money to prop up Ukraine? Just recently China was in Europe clinching deals left and right, many of the countries who were instigating trouble in Ukraine were amongst the Euro countries where China was gaining traction in, a fast rail network through Asia to Europe will allow China to boost economies in the eurozone where their economies are stagnating, and propels a positive image in Europe where China is demonized for "stealing their jobs". This is a far better solution than the one's mentioned before.

sepheronx wrote:

Firebird wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Strizh wrote:Now the west will act even more aggressive against Russia. Because hey the sanctions worked we can control Russia now.

I bet Central Bank put pressure. Because sanctions would have helped domestic enterprises big time.

Screw him. He really screwed up big time here. And Sanctions would have barely hurt Russia besides banking sector. I really bet it is them.

He's either gonna end up as "Vladimir the Great" or "Vladimir the Chicken".

I sure as hell hope it wont be the latter...

PS if he's really motivated by sanctions threats, he needs to take a step back... and resign, IMO.
Sanctions cant do fuck all, IMO.

Sanctions mean nothing. He is a coward.

He better come up with some surprise or I am betting a lot of Russians will be mad. Im mad that he abandoned people in the region where some of my family comes from.

We'll find out sooner or later.
Its just over a day til Victory Day.

What does he want to be remembered for?
Shaking hands with the leaders of the Nazi Spring?

Surely that cant be the case can it...?

My guess is he feels the East is Russian any time he wants it.
I reckon the issue for him is how far West he can go as a part of the Eurasian Union ie how many regions of the Ukraine can be taken onboard.

The devil is always in the detail. Maybe he's saying "You have to agree to (whatever level of..) federalisation before the election.
And after then, a president might be an utterly irrelevant figurehead. We're speculating.

USA said that referendum must not be postponed, but cancelled completely. I think that Ukrainian rebels get the message


Oh, in addition, Yats said that this postponement is "a pointless affair".
As of now, he appears to not want to recognize the referendum, regardless of date.

etaepsilonk wrote:USA said that referendum must not be postponed, but cancelled completely. I think that Ukrainian rebels get the message

Thats why it is important that this deal is between Russia and EU.  Fuck the USA - as opposed to, "fuck the EU" !  

Putin need to act  there are Russians live in risk, he is the Russian president.
Don´t negociate, demand!!!

The Ukraine adventure is a turning point for central Europe and Russia . Mainly Russia.
is the end of the elusions.. the hope that the protestand dominated West .. with their closed  financial club.. will treat Russia aw an equal partner.

Some years ago  Putin said  for NATO
"when the wolf eats .. does not hear"..

well it is time that the Russian  society  realise that the NATO  is a cultural enemy . Not europe.. but the Protestand Europe.The cultural boarder line passes through the DNEIPER RIVER.
THATS THE MISTAKE OF THE RUSSIAN LEADERSHIP. THEY SHOULD HAVE ESTIMATED THAT BORDER EARLIER.

Any way.

NATO was building  a wasp nest all these years in Ukraine . What happened now is that the nest is kicked .. and probably destroyed .. but the wasp now are flying around and stinging ..

Russian society has to understand .. that must not expect any recognition and respect from the Protestands. There is a cultural canyon in between.
But  in parallel have to realise .. that they are Europe too. Russia is the 50% of Europe. But not the NATO protestand dominated Europe.  They must stop trying follow like parots what the west is doing and focus on Russia. Focus on their own identity  and derive self respect and confidence out of it..

Fuck Eurovision..
}an event that all the followers of the empire sing in english .. english  pop like songs..
It is not erelevent that Ukraine become orginiser of EUROVISION .. It was the begining of the wasp nest building

So the positive shock wave inside Russia must be used to create a new ideology for Russia ,  a view of what is thwe posision of Russia in the world. Russia is too large to luck its own ideology .. wether based on Dostoyefsky or any one else .. Cannot go on with the bilioners spending Russian money on english scoccer teams..

As for \Ukrain now.. The wasp nest is kicked and destroyed. All wasps are in the air stinging almost any one. Thats good.
It was not a good idea spending money and shaking hands and smile with people like Timosenko or Yianoukovits.. That was a waste of money and time.

A new era begings for Ukraine .  An era that the east and south  know exactly what NATO and EU is and are able to take their decisions. Their elutions of a united Ukraine is crashed.
Odessa  jolly good old boys .. now know what RS is  and what can do to them.

Russia has to deal with new born political figures .. more scocialy reliable , especialy in Donbas.

========================================
What has to be done

my opinion is that the S.East must not enter the election with a candidate , but abstain mainly and for th rest of the country scilendly vote for the chocolate king.

This will have two benifites.
1. They can always claim that the results are not representative and valid
2. Porosenko gets a strong majority .. to kick the ass of Yaros oleg Turchinof, Timosenko and all the other parots.

Of course .. the new FEDERAl  constitution will be the next demand just after the presidential elections. And here is where the main batle will be given

BUT MAKE NO MISTAKES..
THE ARMS  MUST NOT BE GIVEN AWAY..  because the arms and  the local militsia is the only quaranty that any agreement will be kept.
==================================
I would be obliged for your opinion on my position

Putin have to wait to times after 25th May elections day. In that day elections will not be only in Ukraine, but also in EU. Results of elections will show, in which directions situation will heading. You so easily talk about war. Believe me, there will be more than enough time for people to die and it is better for them to die in peace than in war. If Russia intervene now, it will be a catastrophe. Russia will be trapped for years in war in Ukraine, where millions of Ukrainians as well as Russians will die, West will make large profits from this and Russia will have at the end to leave the Ukraine. Russia have to intervene in right time to quickly end the war and stop killing.

Crucial will be the will of Ukrainian population. How many will not go to elections, for whom they will vote, etc. If southeastern region will not vote, than this will also be a kind of referendum, which will show, that citizens don't want to have anything with Kiev regime. They could also vote on that day their own government and leadership, to unite their front, that not every village or town fight for itself. Elected government will also have a mandate to ask Russia for help. In the mean time, Russian government have to prepare all needed for successful intervention.

Interesting that Yahoo is now allowing this view to be aired, by a Russian who desribed the US as a troublemaker.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/view-moscow-whats-us-endgame-ukraine-114715356.html#OLTFe6q

Heh

This is a PR show for Europe.
It may be that Putin is sincere, it may be that he isn't - but there's one thing he knows; his decelerations don't have much influence in the Ukrainian south-east; the people living there do. He can say say all he wants in front of the cameras, but he himself knows that it will change nothing on the ground, even if the US and EU are too hysterical to realize it or don't want to hear it.
SO keep that in mind when you judge his actions.

And the people of the south-east have certain demands that will need to be fulfilled, before they will agree to push-back any referendum, or agree to participate in any election; it's the MINIMUM required. Tsarev summed it up pretty nicely; he's not calling the shots as such - but he does know what's neccessery; namely:
1). Immediate cancellation of the CTO and withdrawing of all Ukr. units to their areas of permanent deployment/garrisons.
2). Disbandment of all police, paramilitary, military formations that have been formed by order of the new government since February 20th.
3). Russian language as state language
4). Immediate release all political prisoners taken since Feburary 20th, adjourning cases on Berkut members, Party of Regions MPs and others under false pretexts or lustration charges.

Now there are plenty of other things that can be demanded too, but those are the minimum for negotiations to even open between the rebels and the government, to work out some sort of plan to stabilize the country or whatever and other compromises.

And of course Kiev has no intention of doing any of this. Kiev has just said today that it doesn't intend to call off the CTO. Poroshenko has stated he's ready for a referendum? So what? That's the least of the demands, it's nowhere near enough. And what kind of referendum, has he explained? Because if it's an "all-Ukrainian" referendum, or a referendum only on decentralization then that's not good enough.

Bottom line - there are a few things that Putin can do in order to put the hurt on the rebels. Closing down all borders and preventing volunteers, supplies from crossing, cutting off all contacts with them, even sharply denouncing them and putting demands.
So far he's not doing anything, some soft declerations or wishes expressed will change absolutely nothing apart from maybe that they're bad for morale and would hit his popularity at home.
This is just another Geneva; the last one had no bearing on anything, this latest talk won't either.

Until Putin actually does something concrete against the rebels, I wouldn't worry. Just a couple of days ago we saw how several military trucks full of armed Cossack volunteers seemingly crossed into Ukrainian territory unchallenged and occupied/liberated a town in Lugansk.
This says more than any press conference.

What it does mean though is that Putin isn't preparing for any military strike, which on the one hand is disappointing, but on the other hand it buys some time for the rebels to strengthen their position, and for the Europeans to realize that reigning in Kiev is a precondition for peace.
I'm pessimistic personally, Europeans are too dumb and hypocrtical to realize this is a people's movement, and the Ukraine is finished as a country anyway, over the coming months it will fragment more and more until all sides realise that they don't want a new Yugoslavia in Europe and simply agree to seperate the 2 sides.

All of the ukrainian operations so far failed.
I mean what did they really achive? NOTHING.

They captured an important building in mariopol, a few hours later the pro-russian forces recaptured it!

If the Ukrainians keep failing like this the russians dont need much work to capture eastern-ukraine.

medo wrote:Putin have to wait to times after 25th May elections day. In that day elections will not be only in Ukraine, but also in EU. Results of elections will show, in which directions situation will heading. You so easily talk about war. Believe me, there will be more than enough time for people to die and it is better for them to die in peace than in war. If Russia intervene now, it will be a catastrophe. Russia will be trapped for years in war in Ukraine, where millions of Ukrainians as well as Russians will die, West will make large profits from this and Russia will have at the end to leave the Ukraine. Russia have to intervene in right time to quickly end the war and stop killing.

Crucial will be the will of Ukrainian population. How many will not go to elections, for whom they will vote, etc. If southeastern region will not vote, than this will also be a kind of referendum, which will show, that citizens don't want to have anything with Kiev regime. They could also vote on that day their own government and leadership, to unite their front, that not every village or town fight for itself. Elected government will also have a mandate to ask Russia for help. In the mean time, Russian government have to prepare all needed for successful intervention.

This is indeed my thought also. The uprising is still too weak for a successful intervention. At today Russia would achieve only two oblast, which isn't a valuable option if we think at the sanctions. Let's hope for the best.

flamming_python wrote:Heh

This is a PR show for Europe.
It may be that Putin is sincere, it may be that he isn't - but there's one thing he knows; his decelerations don't have much influence in the Ukrainian south-east; the people living there do. He can say say all he wants in front of the cameras, but he himself knows that it will change nothing on the ground, even if the US and EU are too hysterical to realize it or don't want to hear it.
SO keep that in mind when you judge his actions.

And the people of the south-east have certain demands that will need to be fulfilled, before they will agree to push-back any referendum, or agree to participate in any election; it's the MINIMUM required. Tsarev summed it up pretty nicely; he's not calling the shots as such - but he does know what's neccessery; namely:
1). Immediate cancellation of the CTO and withdrawing of all Ukr. units to their areas of permanent deployment/garrisons.
2). Disbandment of all police, paramilitary, military formations that have been formed by order of the new government since February 20th.
3). Russian language as state language
4). Immediate release all political prisoners taken since Feburary 20th, adjourning cases on Berkut members, Party of Regions MPs and others under false pretexts or lustration charges.

Now there are plenty of other things that can be demanded too, but those are the minimum for negotiations to even open between the rebels and the government, to work out some sort of plan to stabilize the country or whatever and other compromises.

And of course Kiev has no intention of doing any of this. Kiev has just said today that it doesn't intend to call off the CTO. Poroshenko has stated he's ready for a referendum? So what? That's the least of the demands, it's nowhere near enough. And what kind of referendum, has he explained? Because if it's an "all-Ukrainian" referendum, or a referendum only on decentralization then that's not good enough.

Bottom line - there are a few things that Putin can do in order to put the hurt on the rebels. Closing down all borders and preventing volunteers, supplies from crossing, cutting off all contacts with them, even sharply denouncing them and putting demands.
So far he's not doing anything, some soft declerations or wishes expressed will change absolutely nothing apart from maybe that they're bad for morale and would hit his popularity at home.
This is just another Geneva; the last one had no bearing on anything, this latest talk won't either.

Until Putin actually does something concrete against the rebels, I wouldn't worry. Just a couple of days ago we saw how several military trucks full of armed Cossack volunteers seemingly crossed into Ukrainian territory unchallenged and occupied/liberated a town in Lugansk.
This says more than any press conference.

What it does mean though is that Putin isn't preparing for any military strike, which on the one hand is disappointing, but on the other hand it buys some time for the rebels to strengthen their position, and for the Europeans to realize that reigning in Kiev is a precondition for peace.
I'm pessimistic personally, Europeans are too dumb and hypocrtical to realize this is a people's movement, and the Ukraine is finished as a country anyway, over the coming months it will fragment more and more until all sides realise that they don't want a new Yugoslavia in Europe and simply agree to seperate the 2 sides.

The Ukraine adventure is a turning point for central Europe and Russia . Mainly Russia.
is the end of the elusions.. the hope that the protestand dominated West .. with their closed  financial club.. will treat Russia aw an equal partner.

Some years ago  Putin said  for NATO
"when the wolf eats .. does not hear"..

well it is time that the Russian  society  realise that the NATO  is a cultural enemy . Not europe.. but the Protestand Europe.The cultural boarder line passes through the DNEIPER RIVER.
THATS THE MISTAKE OF THE RUSSIAN LEADERSHIP. THEY SHOULD HAVE ESTIMATED THAT BORDER EARLIER.

Any way.

NATO was building  a wasp nest all these years in Ukraine . What happened now is that the nest is kicked .. and probably destroyed .. but the wasp now are flying around and stinging ..

Russian society has to understand .. that must not expect any recognition and respect from the Protestands. There is a cultural canyon in between.
But  in parallel have to realise .. that they are Europe too. Russia is the 50% of Europe. But not the NATO protestand dominated Europe.  They must stop trying follow like parots what the west is doing and focus on Russia. Focus on their own identity  and derive self respect and confidence out of it..

Fuck Eurovision..
}an event that all the followers of the empire sing in english .. english  pop like songs..
It is not erelevent that Ukraine become orginiser of EUROVISION .. It was the begining of the wasp nest building

So the positive shock wave inside Russia must be used to create a new ideology for Russia ,  a view of what is thwe posision of Russia in the world. Russia is too large to luck its own ideology .. wether based on Dostoyefsky or any one else .. Cannot go on with the bilioners spending Russian money on english scoccer teams..

As for \Ukrain now.. The wasp nest is kicked and destroyed. All wasps are in the air stinging almost any one. Thats good.
It was not a good idea spending money and shaking hands and smile with people like Timosenko or Yianoukovits.. That was a waste of money and time.

A new era begings for Ukraine .  An era that the east and south  know exactly what NATO and EU is and are able to take their decisions. Their elutions of a united Ukraine is crashed.
Odessa  jolly good old boys .. now know what RS is  and what can do to them.

Russia has to deal with new born political figures .. more scocialy reliable , especialy in Donbas.

========================================
What has to be done

my opinion is that the S.East must not enter the election with a candidate , but abstain mainly and for th rest of the country scilendly vote for the chocolate king.

This will have two benifites.
1. They can always claim that the results are not representative and valid
2. Porosenko gets a strong majority .. to kick the ass of Yaros oleg Turchinof, Timosenko and all the other parots.

Of course .. the new FEDERAl  constitution will be the next demand just after the presidential elections. And here is where the main batle will be given

BUT MAKE NO MISTAKES..
THE ARMS  MUST NOT BE GIVEN AWAY..  because the arms and  the local militsia is the only quaranty that any agreement will be kept.
==================================


if Kiev does not respond.. aflow of night vision equipment , RPGs 7 - 26 .. probably some Kornet for the heavy staf .. will do the job

Also sending Kiev in to darness for a week is an option ..

actually there are many options on the table.

The issue is what is the deal strucked with the Chocolate KIng