Scottish Indepedence

JohninMK wrote:

Godric wrote:

they can't stop it all SNP needs to do is resign all of their 56 seats and we campaign on the grounds of a simple majority = Independence quite simply win 30 of those 56 seats and declare independence

Its not that simple, Scotland is not a sovereign country, it is part of the UK and only Westminster can legally break the Union. You would have to declare some kind of unilateral declaration of independence.

Anyway, would the Scottish people accept some kind of 'first past the MSP post, vote on my behalf' deal? Surely they would want their own vote, you know, a referendum?

Theresa May has had her chance

the gloves will come off after the easter recess

you now know by Holyrood voting for a new Independence referendum May cannot use our resources like fishing, oil etc as bargaining chips to get a deal with the EU


the UK is finished

Godric wrote:the UK is finished

The secret is the UK islands off of Scotland, which have no appetite for SNP's, divisive, demi-Maidanut, Eurozone-oriented platform.

KiloGolf wrote:

Godric wrote:the UK is finished

The secret is the UK islands off of Scotland, which have no appetite for SNP's, divisive, demi-Maidanut, Eurozone-oriented platform.

Yup, roll on the new Crown Dependency of the Orkney and Shetland Islands.

JohninMK wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

Godric wrote:the UK is finished

The secret is the UK islands off of Scotland, which have no appetite for SNP's, divisive, demi-Maidanut, Eurozone-oriented platform.

Yup, roll on the new Crown Dependency of the Orkney and Shetland Islands.

you are living in a fantasy

Shetland's and Orkneys were very pro EU as well all 32 regions ... if anything they have less in common with London

to keep Scotland in the UK they would have to put troops in every street in Scotland and many will go home to England in body bags

Godric wrote:to keep Scotland in the UK they would have to put troops in every street in Scotland and many will go home to England in body bags

Freedom
The reality is that Britain has all the power and resources it needs to keep whatever region, island, city, village or town it pleases in what is now considered as Scotland.

KiloGolf wrote:

Godric wrote:to keep Scotland in the UK they would have to put troops in every street in Scotland and many will go home to England in body bags

Freedom
The reality is that Britain has all the power and resources it needs to keep whatever region, island, city, village or town it pleases in what is now considered as Scotland.

the UK has no power

England is dependent on our oil the whole subsidy junky is a myth to keep Scotland within the UK

and in Brexit England is going to be way weaker ... no one wants to make trade deals with the UK because EU is a much larger market

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rp2XS1nbvA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VOuSN2j5iU

90,000 marched through the streets of Glasgow today ... ..... some will say only 90,000 ... this is the scale of the march it is akin to 1.65 million marching through the streets of London ... the organisers hoped the turnout would be 40,000

http://www.thenational.scot/news/16207375.Today_s_pro-independence_march_in_tweets/

Indyref2 will becoming within 9 to 11 months time

the latest polls the UK is on the verge Indyref2 will be held within the next 6 to 9 months time



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-union-scotland-northern-ireland-nationalists-a8519526.html

Scottish independence is going to make N Ireland rethink its position too, and of course it is only a matter of time before the EU countries start to question why their financial hub is in London instead of an EU country...

How is the defence industry distributed in the UK... will companies continue to work after being divided into pieces by boundary changes.

Are all the major UK defence companies essentially English or are they spread out over the place... with factories and HQs all over the place?

i wouldn't worry about the UK ... it will soon be gone ... no longer a member of the permanent UN security council, Scotland will be leaving later this year .... without either Scotland or England their is no UK ... the remnants England & Wales will have a £110 Billion defence black hole over 30 years (Scotland's defence contributions via Scottish taxpayers) .,... they won't be able to afford nukes and most likely have to sell one of the their carriers as for their seat on the UN security council they won't get support from Scotland ... because rumours are coming out that they will play hardball with us it also means no more G7 membership .... oh and Scotland won't be part of NATO because the rUK will have to remove it's sole nuclear base from Scottish soil ... no more testing ground for NATO's navies either  as they will lose control over 62% of the UK's maritime waters ..... i wonder if Russia will want a Naval base .... chuckle

GarryB wrote:Scottish independence is going to make N Ireland rethink its position too, and of course it is only a matter of time before the EU countries start to question why their financial hub is in London instead of an EU country...

How is the defence industry distributed in the UK... will companies continue to work after being divided into pieces by boundary changes.

Are all the major UK defence companies essentially English or are they spread out over the place... with factories and HQs all over the place?

it's already happening big time London is squealing like little piggies they had the cheek to think after leaving the EU that London would remain the financial hub of Europe

and the defence companies are spread all over UK ... bomb making in Scotland and the surface ships built in Scotland, and other defence companies , Scotland also has a £2- £3billion a year space industry it's part of the EU space sector

i wonder if Russia will want a Naval base .... chuckle

I don't honestly think they will want a naval base in Scotland, but I am pretty sure they will be happy to greatly improve ties and trade with your ...country.... (feels weird...)..

I would be worried about picking numbers out of the air like that for contributions because your economies will be so intertwined with Wales and England and Ireland and Northern Ireland that all of your economies will dramatically change.

Honestly I just love the Scottish accent, Billy Connelly has broken my brain though because every time I hear a Scottish accent I expect to hear a funny joke...

If you do get a referendum and you do decide to break off, I wonder if the EU will accept you back... I can see the EU maybe rejecting you to make it feel better about the UK rejecting them, but equally they might accept you to spite the rest of the components of what was the UK.

Equally if you separate you become a rival to your neighbours and they will likely fight for trade relations with the former commonwealth... but then I think that will be slim pickings to start with... the British commonwealth... what does it become... and most of it learned to be self sufficient when the UK joined the EU and essentially turned your backs to us economically.

It is a bit like the food producers in the EU thinking they can get all that business back if they drop the sanctions with Russia because the market that was there will still be waiting for them and they just need to ramp up production and start sending it to Russia and go back to making lots of money... but the ruble is a lot weaker than it was and there is local competition now that can operate completely in rubles so there is no exchange rate issues... but much worse than that... these new Russian food companies could then invade the EU market and take some market share there with their much cheaper products.

The break up of the Soviet Union was very damaging to Russia, and former neighbours and allies joining the other team and turning on Russia despite their economies being tightly linked like the Ukraine or the Baltic States that relied on Russian goods in their ports or producing engines and transport planes for their military and civilian sectors... they wanted independence and they got it and they have managed to separate properly from the hated Russians... and in the case of the Baltic states even managed to join the EU and HATO... you would think they would be over the moon but their future is going to require serious changes.... their shipyards and transport infrastructure is scaled to support Russian trade traffic and no one else wants to use it...

I would not like the see Scotland think everything is going to be great because politicians are everywhere and independence can mean instead of being ruled and directed by in London that you end up being ruled and directed by local who operate from locations more locally... but they still make the same stupid decisions because it is decisions based on big money bribes and not what is best for the people.

I wish you all the best... I honestly like to see people succeed... I would be happy to see America live up to the hype... you know truth and justice for all... but if they don't want it then it wont happen.

There are plenty of Scotsmen of significance in Russian history too... I think if the EU rejects you Russia might become a rather useful trade partner and ally.

Sadly if the EU welcomes you back you will be forced to dance to their tune, though I think as an independent state you might start a call for reform of the system to cater to the needs of all the members rather than the unelected dictatorial crap they put up with now.

I don't say the UK should have left the EU and I understand that they chose to do so, but honestly I think they threw the baby out with the bathwater... it had potential as an economic arrangement... the political aspect just got out of hand and became too preachy and as I said dictatorial and from unelected officials with no rights to do so...

Anyway... all the best.

They really didn't think things through... there was a lot of people unhappy with the EU, but instead of stay or leave it should have been reform or leave, and I think if there was a bit more debate about it that they would have voted to stay but demand the EU reform and become more democratic and to listen more and to allow more diversity of opinions.

Take all the variety of foods you eat... all the different flavours and types of food... after processing through the human body it all comes out the same colour and it does not smell nice.

The EU is trying the herd cats to get them to behave, but cats don't work like that.

If the political aspect was eliminated and it was just an economic structure it might work much better.

Godric wrote:Scotland will be leaving later this year

Scots have been saying this for the last 75 years. "That year" never came. This year won't be any different.

Unfortunately it was the EU that were steadfast in not allowing any reform, not the UK suggesting it. It was a take it or leave it negotiating stance that Cameron faced. As a member at the time we were not in a position to 'demand' as you put it, anything. It is not in the Commission's interests to make decision making more democratic and it was intentionally set up that way, so that won't change.

You hit the nail on the head in your last comment. If it was still the Common Market we would still be in it without doubt.

I, like Godric, would welcome Scottish independence but I do not have his confidence in it actually happening in the face of determined opposition, including dirty tricks, from opposition.

These last comments are way O/T can you move them to the Scot Indy thread Garry please?

I think Scotlands status within the UK is a critical part of whether this new aircraft ever actually flys or not, but the talk of the EU etc is going to move.
Funding and resourcing a project in a group of countries whose status is about to change is complex and enormously problematic... a breakaway of Scotland... which is not becoming a new country, it is just separating from the UK and if it can joining with the EU.

That is for the other thread but you can't ignore the economic and political considerations an independent Scotland would have on this sort of project.

The idea of needing a new 5th gen fighter in England when the Scottish announce they have bought S-400s and Su-35s with S-70s and are in discussions over Su-57s and Pantsirs is going to drive England to take its defence perhaps a bit more seriously.

Such a result, which I think unlikely in the short term, could guarantee funding for a new fighter programme... whether that change is to spend lots more money on this new fighter design, or perhaps even a change of heart to consider now they are separated that maybe both sides of the border are going to have to radically change its views on what a real enemy is and why they think the way they do and that perhaps a re evaluation of where their future should be.

When was the last time Russia convinced the UK to come and fight a war with them... perhaps independence or not the countries of the UK... together or independently need to look at their current friendships and current rivalries and try to work out what sort of future the current relationships lead to... the west seems to be actively working to "contain" Russia and China because they perceive them as threats... could it be that in the background the US is doing the same to both the EU and UK because they don't want either to become more powerful than them?

I think this post has wandered too far into scottish independence to stay in the tempest thread but will post a similar post in the tempest thread to try to clarify which type of post goes where.

JohninMK wrote:Unfortunately it was the EU that were steadfast in not allowing any reform, not the UK suggesting it. It was a take it or leave it negotiating stance that Cameron faced. As a member at the time we were not in a position to 'demand' as you put it, anything. It is not in the Commission's interests to make decision making more democratic and it was intentionally set up that way, so that won't change.

You hit the nail on the head in your last comment. If it was still the Common Market we would still be in it without doubt.

I, like Godric, would welcome Scottish independence but I do not have his confidence in it actually happening in the face of determined opposition, including dirty tricks, from opposition.

These last comments are way O/T can you move them to the Scot Indy thread Garry please?

London is equally guilty of refusing reform to win said referendum the unionist promised wholesale reform near federalism for Scotland, Guaranteed EU citizenship, Tax jobs remaining in Scotland, the power to hold all future referendums in Scotland from Holyrood and a whole raft of more powers to Holyrood which would be akin to Devo Max ... without those promises via Gordon Brown and "the Vow" that was signed up to by David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg where they said Holyrood would control every in Scotland apart from the defence and foreign policy ... non of of those promises were delivered instead we got "EVEL" the very next day .... the new powers Holyrood received were closer to Pepsi Max than Devo Max .... the UK have been trying to pressure the Independence movement since September 19th 2014 and it hasn't worked and a 2nd "Vow" will fail ... only today a new poll was released where 70% of Scots believe Scotland would be better off out the UK

RTN wrote:

Godric wrote:Scotland will be leaving later this year

Scots have been saying this for the last 75 years. "That year" never came.  This year won't be any different.

wait and see the Holyrood election on the 6th of May will trigger it .... London can no longer stop it

1. As of now there is no formal legislation on the break up of the UK, So no Scottland isn't leaving the UK. I am aware some want to however that's all, that may very well change in the future sure.

2. If the UK and Scottland do break up, whether Scottland remains in NATO will remain to be seen, so to say NATO is out of Scottland is fool hardy, may they would maybe they won't.

3. The UK can afford nukes without Scottland.

I suspect that Scotland would charge a significant rent and allow the submarine base to continue in the Clyde for say 10 years.

But you want into the EU, so just exchanging one queen for another plus they will demand you join NATO. Freedom is just a dream my friend.

I thought the same about eastern europe... complaining about lack of control and independence under the Soviet occupation and the first thing they try to do when they become independent is join HATO and the EU... so it was clearly more about money than actual independence really... if the Soviets had pumped more money into their economies and given them better standards of living it would have been all fine...

2. If the UK and Scottland do break up, whether Scottland remains in NATO will remain to be seen, so to say NATO is out of Scottland is fool hardy, may they would maybe they won't.

3. The UK can afford nukes without Scottland

Well use your brain... if the remains of the UK and HATO do to a newly independent Scotland what they are doing to Russia and China don't you think the obvious result will be to push Scotland towards their only remaining option, which is good relations with Russia and China... which they probably want anyway, but like most little countries they want both... they want to be friends with the "bad guys" but also be friends with the west... but the west never tolerates that... look at the Ukraine... our deal and our direction or we crush you and overthrow you and shoot and burn to death some people and then we make you poor and weak and dependent on us.

Look at what the British were prepared to do in Ireland and Northern Ireland... does anyone think they will be nicer to Scotland?

I suspect that Scotland would charge a significant rent and allow the submarine base to continue in the Clyde for say 10 years.

Sort of a mirror repeat of Ukraine and Sevastopol... except the people of the Crimea didn't want to be part of the Ukraine from the start and probably saw in their future Ukraine kicking the Russians out of Sevastopol and letting HATO in to use the base... they would have to be allowed to join HATO then right?

Wonder what would happen if Russia made a bid for using the base....

SeigSoloyvov wrote:1. As of now there is no formal legislation on the break up of the UK, So no Scottland isn't leaving the UK. I am aware some want to however that's all, that may very well change in the future sure.

2. If the UK and Scottland do break up, whether Scottland remains in NATO will remain to be seen, so to say NATO is out of Scottland is fool hardy, may they would maybe they won't.

3. The UK can afford nukes without Scottland.

Without Scotland it will be the dUK (disUnited Kingdom).. jokes apart, without Scotland they will not be able to call it Great Britain anymore. At best united kingdom of England and Wales (i cannot imagine northern Ireland remaining long after Scotland will have left.

They will have also to remove the cross of st Andrew and the cross of san Patrick from the flag

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

Without Scotland it will be the dUK (disUnited Kingdom).. jokes apart, without Scotland they will not be able to call it  Great Britain anymore. At best united kingdom of England and Wales (i cannot imagine northern Ireland  remaining long after Scotland will have left.

They will have also to remove the cross of st Andrew and the cross of san Patrick from the flag

polls have support for Welsh Independence at 39% and that figure will sky rocket when Scotland leaves

franco wrote:
But you want into the EU, so just exchanging one queen for another plus they will demand you join NATO. Freedom is just a dream my friend.

Scotland has 8% control within the UK, leaving the UK and rejoining the EU means we will have 89% control, and joining NATO is not mandatory in joining the EU as Countries like Finland, Sweden & Ireland

SeigSoloyvov wrote:1. As of now there is no formal legislation on the break up of the UK, So no Scottland isn't leaving the UK. I am aware some want to however that's all, that may very well change in the future sure.

2. If the UK and Scottland do break up, whether Scottland remains in NATO will remain to be seen, so to say NATO is out of Scottland is fool hardy, may they would maybe they won't.

3. The UK can afford nukes without Scottland.

1/That Legislation will soon be forthcoming from Holyrood and it will be up to the Tory government to try and Block it in Scottish courts after a 6th straight clear mandate to hold one .... where the courts recognise and does the house of Commons that the People of Scotland are sovereign and not any parliament.

2/ all it takes is 1 country to block membership and that country will be England followed by America, America has no military base in Scotland

3/ The UK is struggling with defence expenditure as it is .... losing a £105 - £110 Billion over 30 years says England won't be able to afford nukes, it would mean England would have more money to spend on conventional forces

JohninMK wrote:I suspect that Scotland would charge a significant rent and allow the submarine base to continue in the Clyde for say 10 years.

never gonna happen, no government would be elected on the grounds of allowing Faslane to remain a nuclear base ... you will have 2 to 3 years max to pack your bags and get out of Faslane