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That's why I find this odd that it would be displayed at RAE. Russia would have no interest in a 20mm gun, why market a french product?GarryB wrote:
The Soviets didn't tend to use a 20mm cannon in the post WWII period, they tended to use either the 14.5mm KPV, which had higher velocity and better penetration than most 20mm weapons, or 23mm cannon with a heavier projectile.
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Russia Arms Expo 2013
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medo- Posts : 4342
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For export. Many will like to buy russian-french combination, because it could not fall in US spare parts embargo and will still be in their western standard.Zivo wrote:That's why I find this odd that it would be displayed at RAE. Russia would have no interest in a 20mm gun, why market a french product?GarryB wrote:
The Soviets didn't tend to use a 20mm cannon in the post WWII period, they tended to use either the 14.5mm KPV, which had higher velocity and better penetration than most 20mm weapons, or 23mm cannon with a heavier projectile.
Regular- Posts : 3872
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Pipec! French and Russian cooperation is strong in recent days. They are planning to build VBL in Russia- that's just wow. It's nothing Russia wouldn't be able to design on her own, but I guess there is no point to reinvent the wheel. IMHO it will fit perfectly in Russia between BRDM and UAZ/TIGR. Amphibious ability, good offroad performance, very compact rational design. Russia will most likely gain know how and tooling to produce components so it's a big plus if they will go for domestic model later on. French military unlike other Western powers like to focus on tactical and strategic mobility. If I'm right they use Russian made equipment too. Artillery systems come to mind.
Viktor- Posts : 5796
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Load of hi-res pictures
http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/41410/
http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/41410/
sepheronx
sepheronx- Posts : 8558
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@Regular
VBL is more or less an option over boomerang for possibly export, as there would be no logical point in having two of the sane systems in service. Point of boomerang/Kurganetz/Armata is to have comonality amongst parts for the equipment, to reduce costs, ease of increasing production, and keeping logistics a lot easier. VBL would pretty much cancel those plans.
France has some good systems, but none of them really suites Russia's doctrine, training or logistics.
VBL is more or less an option over boomerang for possibly export, as there would be no logical point in having two of the sane systems in service. Point of boomerang/Kurganetz/Armata is to have comonality amongst parts for the equipment, to reduce costs, ease of increasing production, and keeping logistics a lot easier. VBL would pretty much cancel those plans.
France has some good systems, but none of them really suites Russia's doctrine, training or logistics.
Regular- Posts : 3872
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sepheronx wrote:@Regular
VBL is more or less an option over boomerang for possibly export, as there would be no logical point in having two of the sane systems in service. Point of boomerang/Kurganetz/Armata is to have comonality amongst parts for the equipment, to reduce costs, ease of increasing production, and keeping logistics a lot easier. VBL would pretty much cancel those plans.
France has some good systems, but none of them really suites Russia's doctrine, training or logistics.
So France will let Russia export it? I doubt it. I double checked the video now with audio.sepheronx wrote:VBL is more or less an option over boomerang for possibly export, as there would be no logical point in having two of the sane systems in service.
Russia will localise VBL. They want to build their own version with bigger troop and equipment compartment and other one without combat module.
Interior troops and Border guards will be getting it. Now it makes sense.
It's just a armoured 4x4. A car with a bit of armour. Doctrine wise it's simple. It's not Mistral and it could find it's use everywhere. When it will be localised logistics wouldn't matter that much. Still as You mentioned Army will be getting totally different systems anyway.France has some good systems, but none of them really suites Russia's doctrine, training or logistics.
sepheronx- Posts : 8558
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I highly doubt it. Russia is investing too much into their own, there would be very little logistical and economic sense to have two similar vehicles. Face it, it isn't gonna get built. Much like the other proposed foreign vehicles. Only thing foreign that ended up in hands of Russia was Mystral, and even that is facing some real issues, with only 2 purchased so far out of the 4.
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Is there a chance for leaked images of the armata/kurganets/boomerang appearingin a few weeks?
TheArmenian- Posts : 1880
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Other variants of the French-Russian vehicle.
TheArmenian- Posts : 1880
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Day 4
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KomissarBojanchev wrote:Is there a chance for leaked images of the armata/kurganets/boomerang appearingin a few weeks?
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Russia’s defence industry rising giant
From VoiceofRussia (new membera can`t post links for 7 days)At the Russia Arms Expo international arms fair that ended in the Urals city of Nizhny Tagil Sunday, Russia’s Vnesheconombank and the National Arms Company signed a 7.3bln-ruble, 10-year agreement to create a cutting-edge establishment for developing and manufacturing armoured vehicles.
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That looks like the VCBI with Bakcha turret, apparently what the UAE requested.TheArmenian wrote:Other variants of the French-Russian vehicle.
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High resolution photo of the BMPT-72 which was posted on the Otvaga2004 forums:
GarryB- Posts : 39170
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This French gun (which is a good gun by the way) is very widely used and popular, so if you want to sell your products sometimes weapons commonality can be key.That's why I find this odd that it would be displayed at RAE. Russia would have no interest in a 20mm gun, why market a french product?
Say for instance a former French colony has this French cannon in service and they really don't want to spend the money to replace it and its ammo as they make it themselves under licence. They do however want a light four wheel vehicle to replace the old WWII vehicles they still use.
Buying a Tigr-M wouldn't be that expensive because any new vehicle will have little in common with a WWII vehicle, and being able to use the guns and other weapons in service on this new vehicle means they just need to buy a new vehicle they don't need to take on a whole new weapon system as well which would make it rather more expensive... perhaps too expensive...
The French use 155mm Krasnopol-M laser guided artillery shells AFAIK.If I'm right they use Russian made equipment too. Artillery systems come to mind.
I don't know that the Russians will use VBLs themselves as they have a range of similar vehicles and indeed the new Typhoon family of vehicles to come.
I suspect the VBLs will be for export or FSB/MVD ie non military use.
I think the intention is to have the non military forces use non military vehicles to make them seem less military perhaps?
Or it might just fall through like the Iveco deal.
Personally I don't see a point for domestic use when they have the Tigr-M, Volk, Vodnik, and
Skorpion and of course this:
BPM-97
flamming_python- Posts : 9056
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Where does everybody else keep seeing the VBL?
All I can see is the VBCI (well something that looks very similar anyway)
Either I'm being very stupid or everyone else is
I could definitely see a niche for this VBCIish vehicle in FSB or MVD OMON service
They need an MRAP/mine-protected vehicle for counter-insurgency patrols and general transport.
The Ural and Kamaz Typhoons are both very nice, but both are also unarmed.
Good job on bringing the BPM-97 up; so far it looks like the closest equivelent to the new VBCI.
The BPM-97 (Border Guard Fighting Vehicle) is of course optimised for the Border Guards and their requirements. Compared to the VBCI it has a slightly lower top speed (albeit comparable), but a considerably greater range. Protection and mine-protection may be a little lower but again is not likely to be fundamentally different. In armament terms it's inferior; up to 30mm auto-cannon and grenade launcher. It also weighs a lot less; it has half the number of wheels that the VBCI has but if the VBCI has that 57mm turret fitted and ammo loaded and the BPM-97 has the 30mm turret; it will likely still weigh 2.5x less and would thus have less ground pressure; a greater number of bridges and poor roads would be able to support it.
So judging from all this one can say that it's indeed optimized for the border guards role; where it's unlikely to encounter anything more armoured than a pickup truck and anything more dangerous than a heavy machine-gun or SVD with AP ammo, but where it still needs mine-protection, while range & lower-ground pressure and so on would really be quite important factors in guarding Russia's vast borders with often poor infrastructure.
On the other hand, for counter-insurgency patrols, urban warfare, etc... the VBCI probably doesn't need the range, while the advantages in protection and armament could make all the difference.
The only thing is that it's armament may be excessive, as others have mentioned - the 57mm will penetrate armour a lot better than the 30mm; but for COIN usage and fighting in urban areas against irregulars it's advantages over the 30mm are questionable; there would be nothing there that the 30mm won't be able to penetrate, while it will have a higher rate of fire, less weight and more ammo capacity in the vehicle compared to a 57mm turret.
Overall; I'd still say the new VBCI is best for export. The new Typhoon chassis might turn out to be a better fit for the MVD & FSB; at the very least it won't have any disadvantages compared to the VBCI, and money/logistics can be saved on by not introducing a new armoured vehicle familly to Russian state services.
All I can see is the VBCI (well something that looks very similar anyway)
Either I'm being very stupid or everyone else is
I could definitely see a niche for this VBCIish vehicle in FSB or MVD OMON service
They need an MRAP/mine-protected vehicle for counter-insurgency patrols and general transport.
The Ural and Kamaz Typhoons are both very nice, but both are also unarmed.
Good job on bringing the BPM-97 up; so far it looks like the closest equivelent to the new VBCI.
The BPM-97 (Border Guard Fighting Vehicle) is of course optimised for the Border Guards and their requirements. Compared to the VBCI it has a slightly lower top speed (albeit comparable), but a considerably greater range. Protection and mine-protection may be a little lower but again is not likely to be fundamentally different. In armament terms it's inferior; up to 30mm auto-cannon and grenade launcher. It also weighs a lot less; it has half the number of wheels that the VBCI has but if the VBCI has that 57mm turret fitted and ammo loaded and the BPM-97 has the 30mm turret; it will likely still weigh 2.5x less and would thus have less ground pressure; a greater number of bridges and poor roads would be able to support it.
So judging from all this one can say that it's indeed optimized for the border guards role; where it's unlikely to encounter anything more armoured than a pickup truck and anything more dangerous than a heavy machine-gun or SVD with AP ammo, but where it still needs mine-protection, while range & lower-ground pressure and so on would really be quite important factors in guarding Russia's vast borders with often poor infrastructure.
On the other hand, for counter-insurgency patrols, urban warfare, etc... the VBCI probably doesn't need the range, while the advantages in protection and armament could make all the difference.
The only thing is that it's armament may be excessive, as others have mentioned - the 57mm will penetrate armour a lot better than the 30mm; but for COIN usage and fighting in urban areas against irregulars it's advantages over the 30mm are questionable; there would be nothing there that the 30mm won't be able to penetrate, while it will have a higher rate of fire, less weight and more ammo capacity in the vehicle compared to a 57mm turret.
Overall; I'd still say the new VBCI is best for export. The new Typhoon chassis might turn out to be a better fit for the MVD & FSB; at the very least it won't have any disadvantages compared to the VBCI, and money/logistics can be saved on by not introducing a new armoured vehicle familly to Russian state services.
TR1- Posts : 5435
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VBCI is the modern French IFV, not this 57mm monster.
VBL is the little jeep that apparently the border guard is interested in.
BPM-97 and all of the Vystrel variants are cheap unsophisticated crap.
VBL is the little jeep that apparently the border guard is interested in.
BPM-97 and all of the Vystrel variants are cheap unsophisticated crap.
flamming_python- Posts : 9056
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Where did you hear that?TR1 wrote:VBL is the little jeep that apparently the border guard is interested in.
Guess I missed something on this thread.
Huh?BPM-97 and all of the Vystrel variants are cheap unsophisticated crap.
medo- Posts : 4342
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UVZ said, that BMPT-72 is improved comparing to basic BMPT. Any informations, what are improvements in next segments:
- Higher elevation of its main weapons to 60° or 70°.
- Improved FCS, which could follow with all its channels to the max. elevation.
- Data link to integrate it in C4I.
- Higher elevation of its main weapons to 60° or 70°.
- Improved FCS, which could follow with all its channels to the max. elevation.
- Data link to integrate it in C4I.
sepheronx- Posts : 8558
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And I hear mixed reviews. Tiger-M being notorious for quality of transmission and kamaz for engine. Armour plating is going in the right direction, as they are to eventually come out with newer light composite armour for vehicles. I highly doubt that vbl will enter service. It'll get cancelled like iveco.TR1 wrote:VBCI is the modern French IFV, not this 57mm monster.
VBL is the little jeep that apparently the border guard is interested in.
BPM-97 and all of the Vystrel variants are cheap unsophisticated crap.
medo- Posts : 4342
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Anyone know if Lynx (Iveco LMV) was present in RAE-2013 or Kentauro, which Russian army receive for testing?
TR1- Posts : 5435
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AFKsBiDbaJUflamming_python wrote:Where did you hear that?TR1 wrote:VBL is the little jeep that apparently the border guard is interested in.
Guess I missed something on this thread.
Huh?BPM-97 and all of the Vystrel variants are cheap unsophisticated crap.
Second half of this vid- they talk about VBL.
sepheronx- Posts : 8558
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Doesn't look like anything special. Kinda like the scorpion.... Unless the armour and transmission is better?
GarryB- Posts : 39170
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It is a light armoured vehicle... it doesn't need to be the death star...BPM-97 and all of the Vystrel variants are cheap unsophisticated crap.
We are talking about a slightly better protected UAZ jeep or something... if you are fitting it with a 57mm high velocity gun then something is wrong.
To be brutally honest something that can take a 30mm cannon turret can probably also take a turret with an 82mm Vasilek auto mortar which would be vastly more useful than a very high velocity 57mm gun.
Bigger HE round... ability to use standard 82mm mortar bombs... direct fire accuracy or indirect fire range...
Regular- Posts : 3872
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Well You are comparing a armoured truck that can cary 8 people (BPM-97) with small armoured 4x4 that carries 3 people(VBL). Apples and oranges.
Take Skorpion LShA B and compare it.
Fatality. Skorpion wins - because it's domestic more versatile design that could replace UAZ in all it's roles. Just my opinion.
VBL is considered to be outdated by France and they would be very happy to get rid of them. Now there is so many better light armoured vehicles in the world I can't even name them all.
Like TR1 said, Vystrel and more mature Vystrel-M is still something that reeks BTR-40. Knowing what Kamaz can pull off it really looks like "khaltura".
Entering and exiting vehicle with full gear would be very problematic.
But can't say it didn't improve.
Pictures from 2011.
Take Skorpion LShA B and compare it.
Fatality. Skorpion wins - because it's domestic more versatile design that could replace UAZ in all it's roles. Just my opinion.
VBL is considered to be outdated by France and they would be very happy to get rid of them. Now there is so many better light armoured vehicles in the world I can't even name them all.
Like TR1 said, Vystrel and more mature Vystrel-M is still something that reeks BTR-40. Knowing what Kamaz can pull off it really looks like "khaltura".
Entering and exiting vehicle with full gear would be very problematic.
But can't say it didn't improve.
Pictures from 2011.
Cyberspec wrote:
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