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    RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:04 am

    Isos wrote:Their mig-29k suck because they maintain them like it was some shitty cars.
    How is the maintenance of Russian fighter aircraft in any way, inferior to the maintenance of fighter aircraft imported from other countries? The first squadron of Mig-29K was set up with experienced Mig-29 pilots from the Indian Air Force.

    How many Mig-29Ks of the Indian Navy do you know of that crashed? All the 3 fighter of the Indian Navy that crashed were MiG-29KUB trainer aircraft.

    On 23 June 2011, prior to delivery to India, a MiG-29KUB crashed in Russia itself. And how did that Russian Navy Mig 29KUBR crash in the Mediterranean? Shitty car maintenance?

    The Mig 29Ks has seen multiple operational deficiencies in its engines, airframe and fly-by-wire system. Issues related to the engine continue to persist.

    Isos wrote:Russia isn't interested by mig family because their range is half of sukhoi's ones. They need something that can cover their huge territory and they can't buy 1000 of new jets like USSR. So they went with sukhoi only.
    Makes sense. That's why I said that if India intends to import a foreign aircraft it should be the Su 35 not the Mig 35.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:33 am

    MiG-35 is not an upgrade... the MiG-29M/2 and MiG-29KR and MiG-35 are new aircraft that cannot be applied as upgrades to older model MiG-29 aircraft.

    India has the UPG standard which is the best upgrade so far. If they ask for upgrading them to Mig-35 level then MiG will accept with no conditions. India is the main user of their jets.

    But buying new mig-35 is better.

    They can't upgrade the UPG models to 35 standard just like they can't upgrade any other old MiG-29 version even with SMT upgrades to 35 level because they are different airframes.

    Not sure if Indian Mig 29s can be upgraded completely to a Mig-35. Moreover, Mig-35 is still undergoing its mandated state flight-test campaign. Trials will not be complete before next year.

    They can't.

    To get MiG-29M/2s or MiG-35s then they need to replace with new builds.

    They share an airframe with the naval MiG-29KRs though so if they want cheap numbers fighters that are fully multi-role then MiG-29M/2s on land and at sea, or if money is no object like it seems with French and American planes then all MiG-35s could be used on land and at sea.

    Within Russia itself, rather than trading legacy Fulcrums for brand-new MiG-35s, some squadrons have switched to the “heavyweight” Su-30SM Flanker instead.

    I rather suspect the new MiG-35s will operate with Su-30s with Su-35 avionics and engines and radar, as force multipliers to reduce operational costs with the MiG being smaller and lighter.

    If the Mig-35 is indeed so capable an aircraft ( I'm not saying it isn't) why isn't it finding any buyers? Even Egypt decided to purchase Mig-35s but then changed its mind and purchased MiG-29s instead.

    Not operational yet.

    I think Egypt wants MiG-35s but is waiting. The Russian military seems to want the 35 too which I find strange as the 29M/2 has most of the capability yet is much cheaper... operating it with Su-30s with Su-35 equipment and engines and radar means the MiGs don't need to be super planes... just essentially cheaper extra missile carriers... manned drones.

    India should rather purchase the Su-35. Performance wise and cost wise it is a better deal. Compared to Su 35s, Mig 35s are not very cheap. The cost of a basic MiG-35 is 65% that of the Su-35.

    Because it offers about 95% of the Su-35s performance while being cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate.

    Why? Because the airframe will be new?

    It is their new standard and will likely get LMFS technology transferred to it while MiG develops their new 5th gen fighter design... which should speed up and simplify development while also getting new technologies into service faster.

    Now it's almost ready and all the new systems are almost in production. Signing a contract for upgrades will take 1 year or so to agree. So they can order mig-35 level update now. Indian pilots have already tested it btw.

    Egyptian mig-29M are very close to mig-35. Only the AESA radar is missing IMO. It's much better than the mig-29M of the 90s. Just like the Kr version is different from the K version of the 80s.

    The MiG-29M/2 the Egyptians got is unified in design with the naval MiG-29KR and MiG-35 so essentially they are the same airframe.

    The MiG-29M from the 1980s is a different aircraft and only has a single seat canopy, whereas the MiG-29M/2 KR and 35 all have a two seat canopy whether they have two seats or one fitted and are both fully operational aircraft with one or two seats.

    The original MiG-29s had fully operational single seaters and training two seat UB models with a ranging only radar and therefore no R-27R or R-27ER missile capability. (early MiGs could not carry IR guided R-27s either of either type, though the UB could carry the IR guided missiles).

    India would be stupid to buy something that's not in Russian service itself or isnt planned to be introduced into Russian service in any meaningful quantity

    The MIG-35 is being ordered by the Russian Air Force and will likely operate with Su-30 squadrons, and I suspect it might also operate with PVO type units for short range defence of airfields, and bases where the shorter range is no handicap at all.

    The MiG-35, if it's really offers such a good deal from the doctrinal, technological and value for money points of view, should be in Russian service - yet it's not. The Indians would no doubt ask themselves why, and why they would want it instead.

    Because the radar it is supposed to use is not ready yet... it is on order and its design has been unified with the MiG-29KR so in future the Russian military wont need to wait for an export order for MiG-29KRs before it can tack on an order for planes for their carriers if they need more... they can just tack them on the end of a MiG-35 order, which makes rather more sense and will be cheaper.

    The ability to operate from very short airstrips (like a carrier deck) means they can also operate from short strips of motorway.

    Don't play stupid

    No need to be rude and get personal...

    Russia isn't interested by mig family because their range is half of sukhoi's ones.

    Sometimes that is a good thing. For point defence you don't want your planes to wander off and leave what they are supposed to be protecting open to attack.

    They need something that can cover their huge territory and they can't buy 1000 of new jets like USSR. So they went with sukhoi only. That doesn't mean mig-35 is bad.

    Flanker and Fulcrum have similar flight speeds so essentially cover the same sort of area most of the time.

    When operating at top speeds their range shrinks dramatically to being very much shorter distances...

    Makes sense. That's why I said that if India intends to import a foreign aircraft it should be the Su 35 not the Mig 35.

    Su-35 is just an all Russian Su-30MKI improved... they are different class aircraft.

    MiG-35 would be a much better replacement for MiG-27s and MiG-21s than Su-30s or Su-35s would be...

    They would be both cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate...

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    medo
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    Post  medo Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:03 pm

    In my opinion, Russia could somehow return back to defense principles from USSR. In USSR they have Frontal Aviation of VVS, which supported army and which also operated outside USSR borders and Fighter aviation of Air Defense (IA PVO), which operated only inside Soviet borders.

    Although Su-35 and Su-57 are very capable multirole jets they could be used for Russian air defense only together with half of Su-30SM2 fleet, which could operate as fighters and group commanders. Su-30SM2 will have Irbis radar and engines from Su-35 and data link and IFDL from Su-57. Existing SU-30SM have the same IFDL as Su-35. Su-30SM2 will be perfect platform, for modern command post and group leader.

    For supporting army and foreign operations RuAF could go with other half of Su-30SM2, which will be used for air protection and group leader/command post together with Su-34, Su-25SM3 and MiG-35. Form now I see that in RuAF only MiG-35 have actual targeting pod, so RuAF could use MiG-35 more as bomb truck, while bigger and heavier Su-34 will be used for more specific missions like recce, EW, long range strikes, cruise missiles carriers, etc. MiG-35 with AESA radar will be more or less equal to latest versionf of F/A-18E/F and Rafale and will do similar job.

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    Post  Kiko Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:53 pm

    MiG-35 with AESA radar will be more or less equal to latest versionf of F/A-18E/F and Rafale and will do similar job.
    But outstandingly cheaper.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:49 pm

    India won't need French tankers: The Rafales were refuelled by a French Air Force Airbus A330 Multi-Role Tanker Aircraft (MRTA) during its journey to Al Dhafra (a distance of over 5,000km). Incidentally, a Russian tanker aircraft will be the next to refuel the Rafale, with the IAF’s own IL-76 to handle mid-air refuelling in the next leg of the Rafale’s journey to Delhi.
    https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2020/07/28/iaf-rafales-enroute-to-india-refuel-at-30000-feet.html

    But her IL-78s r not being treated as well as they should be:
    According to a Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) report, tabled in Parliament last year, due to non-availability of hangars, the air assets remained in the open, which adversely affected their serviceability and life. Servicing and maintenance activities also had to be carried out in the open tarmac area, which resulted in delays due to weather conditions. The audit also found poor availability of spares, which affected the serviceability of the aircraft. ..
    Furthermore, the report states that the IL-78s were due for overhaul in 2018-19 and during this process it is proposed to upgrade their engines, which will enable them to take off from shorter runways. However, the report said that the upgradation will take several years, meanwhile air to air capability of the IL-78 fleet will remain constrained
    . https://www.defenseworld.net/news/21851/IAF_Issues_Tender_For_Six_Mid_air_Refuelers_For_Third_Time#.X_n2QNhKiyI

    Russia To Deploy MiG-35 Jets in Syria; Keen To Woo Potential Customers Including India & Malaysia
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:36 am

    Russia will deploy new MiG-35s to Syria to test them in operational conditions to see what changes or modifications they need, but also what works and what does not work... it is a very good opportunity for them to give them a proper operational test.

    BTW not supporting them properly and not keeping them in proper hangars means their ll-78s are not going to last very well... but then this would need to be on purpose because I would suggest western equivalent aircraft would suffer rather more with such neglect and no doubt be more expensive too.
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    Post  RTN Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:04 am

    GarryB wrote:Su-35 is just an all Russian Su-30MKI improved... they are different class aircraft.
    All improved Su 30MKI but different class? What does it even mean?

    It's either a different class of aircraft or it is an improved Su 30MKI.
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    Post  Sujoy Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:42 am

    GarryB wrote:Russia will deploy new MiG-35s to Syria to test them in operational conditions to see what changes or modifications they need, but also what works and what does not work... it is a very good opportunity for them to give them a proper operational test.
    That's old news. Seven months after that news was published, Mig 35s have NOT been deployed in Syria.

    And how challenging are those operational conditions in any case? The adversary hardly has any functional air defense systems in place leave alone a state of the art air force.

    GarryB wrote:BTW not supporting them properly and not keeping them in proper hangars means their ll-78s are not going to last very well... but then this would need to be on purpose because I would suggest western equivalent aircraft would suffer rather more with such neglect and no doubt be more expensive too.
    India certainly needs more hangars. Hangars are usually too small to easily accommodate large aircraft such as IL-78.

    That been said, most air forces' have more aircraft than hangars. You'll notice that several Russia aircraft too like the IL-78 are often parked on runways for lack of hangars.
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    Post  mnztr Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:28 pm

    reading about the Russia/India mig 29 deal of the centuary. 21 new MIG-29s and upgrade of 56 existing for $992m. WOW what an insanely good deal. I know the MIGs are being built from 20 year old uncompleted frames but WOW!! Those Indians know how to negotiate a good deal!!!. They could buy 3-4 Rafales from the Frogs for that kinda money..lol I assume the Russians are hoping this will position them well for the new fighter deal?
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    Post  Isos Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:05 pm

    mnztr wrote:reading about the Russia/India mig 29 deal of the centuary. 21 new MIG-29s and upgrade of 56 existing for $992m. WOW what an insanely good deal. I know the MIGs are being built from 20 year old uncompleted frames but WOW!! Those Indians know how to negotiate a good deal!!!. They could buy 3-4 Rafales from the Frogs for that kinda money..lol I assume the Russians are hoping this will position them well for the new fighter deal?

    21 old airframes that were kept more than 20 years in storage. Their price as such shouldn't be more than 3-5 million each.

    Hungary tried to sell 20 mig + 300 items (engines, missiles...) for 20 millions. Their state wasn't better than those ones.

    Then 1 billion minus the price of the 21 airframe divided by 77 should be around 10 million per upgrade which is quite normal. I doubt it will be a big upgrade but more like to give them more service life.

    The deal is correct IMO.


    But if I was them I would ask to upgrade the FCS to allow RVV SD use and buy them in good quantity.
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    Post  mnztr Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:52 pm

    Isos wrote:

    21 old airframes that were kept more than 20 years in storage. Their price as such shouldn't be more than 3-5 million each.

    Hungary tried to sell 20 mig + 300 items (engines, missiles...) for 20 millions. Their state wasn't better than those ones.

    Then 1 billion minus the price of the 21 airframe divided by 77 should be around 10 million per upgrade which is quite normal. I doubt it will be a big upgrade but more like to give them more service life.


    I think the upgrade is quite extensive and planes built from frames that have been properly stored by the factory are far better then a bunch of heavily used planes that have been stuck out in the weather and ill maintained during the collapse of the USSR. India is getting pretty much brand new planes with multirole update.

    All the frames planes will get 40% more fuel, mod 3 engines, new radar major cockpit updates. Airframe life extension updates.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:28 am

    All improved Su 30MKI but different class? What does it even mean?

    It means upgraded Su-30MKI and Russian Su-35 are big heavy and expensive to buy and operate fighters... very much like an F-15 or F-14 in the west.... and are therefore a different class to the MiG-29/F-16/F-18/M2K/Rafale western lighter aircraft of shorter range.

    Normally described as Hi/lo fighters where one is big and powerful with lots of weapons and long range, while the other is smaller lighter cheaper and more often used in the fighter bomber light strike role where it might drop a laser guided bomb on something and them protect the area with AAMs while other of its kind drop more bombs...

    It's either a different class of aircraft or it is an improved Su 30MKI.

    The Su-35 and Su-30 are essentially both the same aircraft... the first based on the single seat Su-27 and the second based on the two seat Su-27UB... the primary difference is that the Su-30 carries slightly less fuel or the Su-35 carries slightly more in place of the extra cockpit.

    They are in the same class of aircraft.

    That's old news. Seven months after that news was published, Mig 35s have NOT been deployed in Syria.

    Didn't have a deadline for that... they might be preparing a group to send, or waiting for a specific technology they want to test to be ready...

    And how challenging are those operational conditions in any case?

    You are right... they should try to invade Alaska to make it more realistic and useful.

    Except Syria offers a chance to attack real targets with real ordinance using communications with Russian special forces and UAVS and other platforms. The fact that the enemy has no air power or anything other than MANPADS... so what... when was the last time Russia fought such a war?

    They can always invade the Ukraine when they are ready for such tests.

    The adversary hardly has any functional air defense systems in place leave alone a state of the art air force.

    So they accurately simulate most EU countries that border Russia then...

    India certainly needs more hangars. Hangars are usually too small to easily accommodate large aircraft such as IL-78.

    No point complaining about the condition of Russian tankers when you don't keep them in hangars because western tankers wont fare better in Indian conditions without hangars either...

    The solution therefore would be buy hangars and use them and spend money maintaining aircraft... just buying new aircraft and not solving the basic problem just makes things really really expensive because western tankers wont be cheaper and you will be less able to afford hangars for them.

    You'll notice that several Russia aircraft too like the IL-78 are often parked on runways for lack of hangars.

    Russian conditions are more about cold which is consistent... not dust and hot and cold... which is not... very cold is also dry.

    But if I was them I would ask to upgrade the FCS to allow RVV SD use and buy them in good quantity.

    Use of new active radar homing AAMs was part of the MIG-29SM upgrade so later SMT and the Indian UPG upgrades should already allow its use.
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    Post  Isos Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:14 am

    mnztr wrote:
    Isos wrote:

    21 old airframes that were kept more than 20 years in storage. Their price as such shouldn't be more than 3-5 million each.

    Hungary tried to sell 20 mig + 300 items (engines, missiles...) for 20 millions. Their state wasn't better than those ones.

    Then 1 billion minus the price of the 21 airframe divided by 77 should be around 10 million per upgrade which is quite normal. I doubt it will be a big upgrade but more like to give them more service life.


    I think the upgrade is quite extensive and planes built from frames that have been properly stored by the factory are far better then a bunch of heavily used planes that have been stuck out in the weather and ill maintained during the collapse of the USSR. India is getting pretty much brand new planes with multirole update.

    All the frames planes will get 40% more fuel, mod 3 engines, new radar major cockpit updates. Airframe life extension updates.

    The 56 mig-29UPG they operate have already all of that. If they upgrade them it's only to extand their service life or to put mig-35 stuff inside like AESA radar which is doubtful for such price. New engine cost 4-5 millions and the other 5-6 million will be to change hydrolics, pomps... radar and structure will stay as such.

    The 21 new airframes will be upgraded at UPG standard so they will cost more.
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    Post  Sujoy Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:43 am

    GarryB wrote:You are right... they should try to invade Alaska to make it more realistic and useful.
    Exhibit101- Even tautologies can be articulated elegantly.


    GarryB wrote: The fact that the enemy has no air power or anything other than MANPADS... so what... when was the last time Russia fought such a war?
    After the First Gulf War, export of U.S fighter aircraft went through the roofs because they were able to decimate one of the most densely packed air defense network in the world. How they achieved that can be litigated but fact remains that their bombing campaign was successful and the rest of the world noticed this undertaking.

    Similarly, if Russia has to ensure the success of the MIG -35 in the international market they have to prove that by deploying the Mig 35 against more formidable air defenses.

    Massaging of data till it conforms to a pre-arrived hypothesis might not work. Maybe try invading Israel instead of Alaska.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:57 pm

    Or enforcing a no fly zone over E. Ukraine.
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    Post  mnztr Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:16 pm

    Isos wrote:
    The 56 mig-29UPG they operate have already all of that. If they upgrade them it's only to extand their service life or to put mig-35 stuff inside like AESA radar which is doubtful for such price. New engine cost 4-5 millions and the other 5-6 million will be to change hydrolics, pomps... radar and structure will stay as such.

    The 21 new airframes will be upgraded at UPG standard so they will cost more.

    Not sure the contract speaks of upgrades to the 56 planes even though it appears the UPG roll out had already started.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:36 am

    After the First Gulf War, export of U.S fighter aircraft went through the roofs because they were able to decimate one of the most densely packed air defense network in the world.

    The Iraqis never had an IADS... it was very much like Syria a few years ago... lots of air defence systems operating separately and independently... some communication, but no real IADS at all.

    How they achieved that can be litigated but fact remains that their bombing campaign was successful and the rest of the world noticed this undertaking.

    Yeah, One of the two major super powers with the support of the entire west can successfully bomb a third world country... it was amazing... never been done before.... really eye opening the fact that a first world super power could gradually wear down a broken country that had just spent the last ten years in a stalemate conflict against Iran which they were struggling to defeat... of course they were going to be the worlds most powerful country and super hard to defeat for the west... Bagdad was as well defended as Moscow despite having no air defence systems newer than SA-2 and SA-9... in fact their actual air defences were pathetic and their best fighter was actually a downgraded version of the MiG-29 which in many ways was less capable than the late model MiG-23s the Soviets had in service... and they ran away to Iranian airspace as soon as they could... as did their Su-24s...

    Similarly, if Russia has to ensure the success of the MIG -35 in the international market they have to prove that by deploying the Mig 35 against more formidable air defenses.

    That is ridiculous... are you suggesting they invade Turkey or Israel?

    Massaging of data till it conforms to a pre-arrived hypothesis might not work. Maybe try invading Israel instead of Alaska.

    Don't be a dick. The F-35 is the best fighter in teh world and it hasn't been effectively used anywhere.

    No western fighter has penetrated decent air defences comparable to Russian air defences, while drones and cruise missiles made Saudi air defences look pathetic... it is one thing to not shoot down all incoming missiles... it is another to never see the attack and learn about it on the news...

    Or enforcing a no fly zone over E. Ukraine.

    There is no need... the Ukraine wont operate over E Ukraine because they lose too many aircraft already.

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    Post  Sujoy Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:47 am

    GarryB wrote:The Iraqis never had an IADS... it was very much like Syria a few years ago... lots of air defence systems operating separately and independently... some communication, but no real IADS at all.
    Lots of air defence systems could have shot down a whole lot of NATO fighters. You don't need an IADS for that. They couldn't.


    GarryB wrote:That is ridiculous... are you suggesting they invade Turkey or Israel?
    I don't know if Russia has the capability to invade Turkey. Russian army positions inside Syria has been bombed by rebels supported by Turkey.  Turkey did shoot down a Russian Su 24. They did not have to enter Russian airspace to do that.

    Will wait and see if a Russian Mig 35 can shoot down a Turkish F-16 in Syria.


    GarryB wrote:The F-35 is the best fighter in teh world and it hasn't been effectively used anywhere.
    Why would you think that the F-35 is the best fighter in the tech world? There are hardly any tech in the F-35 that is not available in other 4++ gen fighters.

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    Post  miketheterrible Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:30 am

    Sujoy wrote:
    GarryB wrote:The Iraqis never had an IADS... it was very much like Syria a few years ago... lots of air defence systems operating separately and independently... some communication, but no real IADS at all.
    Lots of air defence systems could have shot down a whole lot of NATO fighters. You don't need an IADS for that. They couldn't.

    But they did. US lost aircraft during the conflict from AD systems.

    Iraq didn't have neither a strategy nor structure to really take on the US Airforce.  Iraqi MiG's flew barely in a squadron and they decided to bury their more advance jets in the desert.

    Their AD were sitting ducks

    GarryB wrote:That is ridiculous... are you suggesting they invade Turkey or Israel?
    I don't know if Russia has the capability to invade Turkey. Russian army positions inside Syria has been bombed by rebels supported by Turkey.  Turkey did shoot down a Russian Su 24. They did not have to enter Russian airspace to do that.

    A smart person would realize the situation that Su-24 was in. It flew into Turkish airspace and then turned around and got shot down from behind while in Syrian airspace.

    Russian AF bombed jihadist positions that had Turkish soldiers in it.  Turkey didn't do shit.  Actually, there is a reason why Turkish officials went to kiss Russian ass.

    Turkish Army isn't strong. Russian military would wipe out majority of Turks military without entering its territory.

    Will wait and see if a Russian Mig 35 can shoot down a Turkish F-16 in Syria.

    There aren't MiG-35's in Syria.[/quote]
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:40 pm

    There is no need... the Ukraine wont operate over E Ukraine because they lose too many aircraft already.
    to establish it, they'll need to bomb Ukr. AD network there; NATO will consider it an aggression & may send its aircraft as they were training to to do in the last few years. The Ukr. mil. been using UAVs until recently, & they want to get more UAV types from Turkey.
    A Russian MiG-29 shot down a UAV in/near Georgia & MiG-35s could do the same over E. UKraine.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:54 am

    Lots of air defence systems could have shot down a whole lot of NATO fighters.

    Without coordination and communication each air defence battery would be on its own and searching for targets would reveal its position for attack by HATO forces.

    It was shown in Syria that systems on their own can defeat an attack by subsonic cruise missiles... 71 of 103 shot down without communication or coordination... and very likely the case that there were no air defence systems around the target that was hit by the 32 missiles that were not shot down... old buildings that used to be associated with their chem weapons programme were hit... they were no longer used so I rather doubt there were any air defence systems there to protect them.

    Of the defended areas like airfields etc the numbers seem to suggest an excellent kill rate with 100% shootdowns, but about 90% PK probability...

    In other words not every missile killed a target, but every target detected and engaged was shot down, so of the 71 cruise missiles used against the targets all 71 were shot down but more than 71 SAMs were used to achieve this.

    This is quite a success really as no missile has a 100% record and a 85-90% record is considered outstanding in real world conditions.

    This was a third world country with no SAMs that could be considered modern at the time... no BUK, no TOR, no S-300, no Igla AFAIK.

    SA-8, SA-13, S-200, SA-3 and SA-2, and Shilka and cannon... hardly world class against the best the US and HATO could afford...

    You don't need an IADS for that. They couldn't.

    Even without a proper IADS they could have used their systems much better... Serbia in Kosovo showed what could be achieved with old equipment against a super power and cronies who were expecting a quick easy victory... I remember Albright... or Notso to give her her first name... said something like a week is all they will need to break the Serbs and save the Albanians... not a great brain in that head...

    Russian army positions inside Syria has been bombed by rebels supported by Turkey.

    US bases are under mortar and rocket fire every other day in some conflicts... are you suggesting there is a technology or capability that would make forces totally safe?

    Turkey did shoot down a Russian Su 24.

    Based on what happened afterwards it is pretty clear they regretted it... they certainly didn't try it again...

    They did not have to enter Russian airspace to do that.

    So make up your mind... you are saying Russian fighters are not tested against HATO level air forces and ground defence and then you say Turkey shot down an Su-24... so if Russia is not facing HATO level air force and HATO level air defences how did that Su-24 get shot down, which led to the introduction of S-400 SAMs and Su-35 fighters and also Su-34 strike aircraft and Su-57 fighters for testing.

    You therefore are saying Russian aircraft in Syria are at risk from Turkey and the US and Israel so that makes it an ideal testing ground...

    [quute]Will wait and see if a Russian Mig 35 can shoot down a Turkish F-16 in Syria.[/quote]

    Wait for what... Turkish F-16s don't operate in Syrian airspace.... hell Israeli F-35s don't operate in Syrian airspace either.

    Why would you think that the F-35 is the best fighter in the tech world? There are hardly any tech in the F-35 that is not available in other 4++ gen fighters.

    The F-35 is supposed to be Americas most capable fighter with 5th gen avionics superior to anyone else including their own F-22s...

    Iraqi MiG's flew barely in a squadron and they decided to bury their more advance jets in the desert.

    Their best planes... MiG-29s and Su-24s and their AWACS Adnans flew to Iran who confiscated them in war reparations for the conflict the decade before against Iraq.

    Their AD were sitting ducks

    Desert Storm was a tiny area (compared with eastern europe and the Soviet Union), they had total air control and no interference with their satellite coverage and a massive advantage in numbers and quality of forces with the support of allies and lack of support for Iraq.

    It was an example of how HATO wanted to fight, but not a really useful example because Soviet forces would have make it impossible for them to fight that way.

    The HATO conflict in Kosovo showed how reliant on air power they were and when proper tactics are applied even to obsolete equipment that they quickly become impotent and useless.

    Experience from both conflicts led to changes in Soviet and Russian systems to fix potential problems, but in either case if modern at the time Soviet and Russian equipment had been in use HATO would have been crushed...

    A smart person would realize the situation that Su-24 was in. It flew into Turkish airspace and then turned around and got shot down from behind while in Syrian airspace.

    A bomber crew focused on killing terrorists, not expecting to be shot from behind, but the result was greatly enhanced air defence capability for Russian forces in Syria so the chance of it happening again became so close to zero it should not be considered.

    There aren't MiG-35's in Syria.

    Yet. They plan to test some there though... the real problem is that Turkey wont fly F-16s any where near Russian fighters in Syria...

    But that is fine... why would Russia want to shoot down Turkish fighters... they are there to kill terrorists.

    NATO will consider it an aggression & may send its aircraft as they were training to to do in the last few years.

    HATO fighters over the Ukraine would create an ideal situation for Igla and Verba missiles to get some kills....
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:43 am

    ..Israeli F-35s don't operate in Syrian airspace either.
    r u sure?   https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44210403
    https://www.defenseworld.net/news/25499/Russian_S_300s__S_400s_Fail_to_Detect_Israeli_F_35s_Flying_Over_Syria__Reports#.YAO6D-hKiyI
    https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a20884291/f-35-israel-middle-east-russian-weapons/

    And not only them:
    https://sofrep.com/news/american-f-35s-overfly-special-operations-bases-in-syria/

    https://youtu.be/MapR1C2NgKE?t=49


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:08 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
    TMA1
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    Post  TMA1 Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:35 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    ..Israeli F-35s don't operate in Syrian airspace either.
    r u sure?   https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44210403
    https://www.defenseworld.net/news/25499/Russian_S_300s__S_400s_Fail_to_Detect_Israeli_F_35s_Flying_Over_Syria__Reports#.YAO6D-hKiyI
    https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a20884291/f-35-israel-middle-east-russian-weapons/

    And not only them:
    https://sofrep.com/news/american-f-35s-overfly-special-operations-bases-in-syria/

    https://youtu.be/MapR1C2NgKE?t=49


    ...come on bro. f-35's have been detected multiple times with s-400 radars and other ruskie/chicom radars on multiple occasions. the articles do not explain crap. this screams of the same propaganda as RT, except outlets like BBC never get questioned the same way. are they making assumptions based on the fact they weren't tracked/radiated?

    https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2020/12/327745/israel-claims-birds-not-syria-took-down-96-million-f-35-fighter-jet/

    remember the f-35i irreparably damaged by "bird strike" a few years ago? it is important to stay wary of western sources just as much as every source out there.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:34 am

    r u sure?

    Yes.

    Russian radar in Russia can track American F-35s operating on the Iraq Iran border... they can see over the entire area of Syria and Israel etc etc etc.
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    Post  LMFS Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:14 am

    India confirms purchase of Russian MiG-29 and Su-30MKI fighters

    The Indian Ministry of Defense has confirmed the purchase of MiG-29 and Su-30MKI fighters from Russia. This was reported by The Times of India, citing military sources.

    According to the newspaper, a total of 21 MiG-29s and 12 Su-30MKIs are planned to be purchased; a purchase request will soon be sent to Rosoboronexport. It is clarified that the MiG-29s planned for the acquisition will be removed from storage, where they are now.

    Thus, after the delivery of 21 MiG-29s, the total number of these fighters in the Indian Air Force will reach 80, and with the purchase of 12 Su-30MKIs, the number of aircraft of this type will increase to 284. All fighters are to be delivered in 2024-2025.

    The fact that India intends to purchase a batch of Russian fighters became known back in the middle of last summer. The statement about this appeared against the background of a sharp aggravation of the situation in the disputed region of Ladakh after the clashes between Indian and Chinese military personnel. At the same time, it was emphasized that the planes are needed "urgently".

    It was proposed to immediately upgrade the MiG-29 fighters to the MiG-29UPG version, and to assemble the Su-30MKI at HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) enterprises from the kits received from Russia. There is no information as to how it will actually happen.

    At the same time, India by April-May should decide on the choice of a fighter in a tender for 114 new aircraft. As the newspaper writes, while the priority is the French Rafale, purchased by the Air Force in the amount of 36 units, but only in case of price reduction. Other contenders for the contract include the American F / A-18 and F-21 (F-16 for the Indian Air Force), the Swedish Gripen-E, the Russian Su-35 and MiG-35, and the European Eurofighter Typhoon.

    https://en.topwar.ru/179123-indija-podtverdila-zakupku-rossijskih-istrebitelej-mig-29-i-su-30mki.html

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