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    RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:11 pm

    Really the position of India is hard to understand. They are trying to reduce their reliance on Russia, which was always a reliable partner with affordable products and ready for ToT (to a reasonable extent) and to do that, they throw themselves in the arms of Westerners which are neither affordable nor reliable nor ready for ToT... dunno

    Buy the MiG-35 to avoid the critical loss of squadrons and engage in AMCA (or co-design LMFS) with Russia to get some real possibility of getting areal plane in a realistic time frame. Buy the Su-57 as the higher end fighter for the air force. Ideally they would do their own fighters, engines and systems, but Tejas and Kaveri prove they are still a bit too far from that, not admitting reality is harming them and going to do more harm in the future.
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:25 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote: Indian built Russian jets crash at much higher rates than the Russian built jets despite flying in a much harsher sub-Arctic/Arctic climate
    Higher rate compared to which country? No other country that imports fighter aircraft from Russia flies as many sorties as the Indian Air Force does.

    If jets were designed for Arctic climate then it makes perfect sense why they crash in hot, humid countries like India.  

    magnumcromagnon wrote: because you guys refused their quality control doctrine.
     Which quality control doctrine was violated. You clearly have more knowledge about Indian quality control than even the Russian government. Because till date not a single statement has been made by the Russian government that Indians do not follow SOP.

    IAF has to send their aircraft to Russia at regular intervals for MRO. Obviously any departure from any quality control measure would have been noted.

    If Russian made jets are crashing in India because India is violating Russian quality control measures then clearly Russia should ban the sale of aircraft to India because India is destroying the brand value of Russian aircraft.

    magnumcromagnon wrote:The MiG-35 offered the Zhuk-ME AESA as well as 3D vector engine nozzles, and probably could of been used to upgrade the MiG-29 fleet
    How many Mig 29 of the Russian Air Force has been upgraded with Mig 35 technologies? When was this offer made to India to upgrade Indian Mig 29s with Mig 35 technologies?
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:54 pm

    How many Mig 29 of the Russian Air Force has been upgraded with Mig 35 technologies? When was this offer made to India to upgrade Indian Mig 29s with Mig 35 technologies?

    None was upgraded in Russia unfortunately. They had a big amount of them and India payed only 600 million to upgrade its fleet to UPG standard so Russia could have upgraded 100 A/B version to SMT for that money. On the opposite they payed 2.5 billion for not even 50 mirage 2000 upgrades.

    India has the UPG standard which is the best upgrade so far. If they ask for upgrading them to Mig-35 level then MiG will accept with no conditions. India is the main user of their jets.

    But buying new mig-35 is better.
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:46 pm

    Isos wrote:If they ask for upgrading them to Mig-35 level then MiG will accept with no conditions. India is the main user of their jets.
    This calls for a deep upgrade. Not sure if Indian Mig 29s can be upgraded completely to a Mig-35. Moreover, Mig-35 is still undergoing its mandated state flight-test campaign. Trials will not be complete before next year.

    Within Russia itself, rather than trading legacy Fulcrums for brand-new MiG-35s, some squadrons have switched to the “heavyweight” Su-30SM Flanker instead.

    If the Mig-35 is indeed so capable an aircraft ( I'm not saying it isn't) why isn't it finding any buyers? Even Egypt decided to purchase Mig-35s but then changed its mind and purchased MiG-29s instead.

    India should rather purchase the Su-35. Performance wise and cost wise it is a better deal. Compared to Su 35s, Mig 35s are not very cheap. The cost of a basic MiG-35 is 65% that of the Su-35.

    Isos wrote:But buying new mig-35 is better.
    Why? Because the airframe will be new?

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:53 pm

    Mig 35 isn't ready. But it will be very soon. Egypt ordered its migs years ago so unlikely they order something that was finished then or tested.

    Now it's almost ready and all the new systems are almost in production. Signing a contract for upgrades will take 1 year or so to agree. So they can order mig-35 level update now. Indian pilots have already tested it btw.

    Egyptian mig-29M are very close to mig-35. Only the AESA radar is missing IMO. It's much better than the mig-29M of the 90s. Just like the Kr version is different from the K version of the 80s.

    Why? Because the airframe will be new?

    Yes. Indian migs are not young at all. Better buy new airframes.
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    Post  flamming_python Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:01 pm

    India would be stupid to buy something that's not in Russian service itself or isnt planned to be introduced into Russian service in any meaningful quantity
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:33 pm

    flamming_python wrote:India would be stupid to buy something that's not in Russian service itself or isnt planned to be introduced into Russian service in any meaningful quantity

    The UPG upgrade wasn't either. Nor was the su-30MKI.

    Mig-35 isn't a new aircraft. It is very similar to their mig-29K with better equipment. So it already incirporate the experience of the mig-29 family which the indians are very familiar with.
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    Post  flamming_python Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:36 am

    Isos wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:India would be stupid to buy something that's not in Russian service itself or isnt planned to be introduced into Russian service in any meaningful quantity

    The UPG upgrade wasn't either. Nor was the su-30MKI.

    Mig-35 isn't a new aircraft. It is very similar to their mig-29K with better equipment. So it already incirporate the experience of the mig-29 family which the indians are very familiar with.

    That's not the point

    And BTW, the MiG-29K gave the Indians problems for this reason, it was a new model that the Russians themselves hadn't fielded, and there were a lot of kinks to work out.

    The MiG-35, if it's really offers such a good deal from the doctrinal, technological and value for money points of view, should be in Russian service - yet it's not. The Indians would no doubt ask themselves why, and why they would want it instead.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:42 am

    Sujoy wrote:Higher rate compared to which country? No other country that imports fighter aircraft from Russia flies as many sorties as the Indian Air Force does.
    If jets were designed for Arctic climate then it makes perfect sense why they crash in hot, humid countries like India.
     
    Algeria, Indonesia, Malaysia...warm weather countries that don't have the quality control issues of Russian built and delivered jets, but your domestically assembled jets are the ones with terrible quality control issues genius. I mean FFS you have ass hats selling engine blades on the black market over there. clown

    Which quality control doctrine was violated. You clearly have more knowledge about Indian quality control than even the Russian government. Because till date not a single statement has been made by the Russian government that Indians do not follow SOP.

    IAF has to send their aircraft to Russia at regular intervals for MRO. Obviously any departure from any quality control measure would have been noted.

    If Russian made jets are crashing in India because India is violating Russian quality control measures then clearly Russia should ban the sale of aircraft to India because India is destroying the brand value of Russian aircraft.


    Don't play stupid (or maybe your not playing)Indian clown's on the internet always bring up lack of maintenance etc., etc. from the Russians, but the shoddy engineering and industrial quality control of Indian built jets are constantly plaguing them. Tell me, is it the Russians lack of maintenance the reason why both Tejas and Arjun aren't so ubiquitous that they're not being marketed for foreign purchases? Surely if it wasn't the shitty industrial practices from the Indians, they'd be selling their own jets and tanks all over the world.  lol1  Wink

    How many Mig 29 of the Russian Air Force has been upgraded with Mig 35 technologies? When was this offer made to India to upgrade Indian Mig 29s with Mig 35 technologies?

    They're using the money for AESA radars and 3D vector engines buying Su-57's, unlike India who will spend more money for Rafales that require their own tanker aircraft to be purchased. Last things the Indians need to worry about is how Russian's spend their money, you have your own jackass corrupt Indian leadership to worry about lol! lol1 clown Razz

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:32 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:India would be stupid to buy something that's not in Russian service itself or isnt planned to be introduced into Russian service in any meaningful quantity

    The UPG upgrade wasn't either. Nor was the su-30MKI.

    Mig-35 isn't a new aircraft. It is very similar to their mig-29K with better equipment. So it already incirporate the experience of the mig-29 family which the indians are very familiar with.

    That's not the point

    And BTW, the MiG-29K gave the Indians problems for this reason, it was a new model that the Russians themselves hadn't fielded, and there were a lot of kinks to work out.

    The MiG-35, if it's really offers such a good deal from the doctrinal, technological and value for money points of view, should be in Russian service - yet it's not. The Indians would no doubt ask themselves why, and why they would want it instead.

    Their mig-29k suck because they maintain them like it was some shitty cars.

    Russia isn't interested by mig family because their range is half of sukhoi's ones. They need something that can cover their huge territory and they can't buy 1000 of new jets like USSR. So they went with sukhoi only. That doesn't mean mig-35 is bad.
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    Post  Sujoy Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:04 am

    Isos wrote:Their mig-29k suck because they maintain them like it was some shitty cars.
    How is the maintenance of Russian fighter aircraft in any way, inferior to the maintenance of fighter aircraft imported from other countries? The first squadron of Mig-29K was set up with experienced Mig-29 pilots from the Indian Air Force.

    How many Mig-29Ks of the Indian Navy do you know of that crashed? All the 3 fighter of the Indian Navy that crashed were MiG-29KUB trainer aircraft.

    On 23 June 2011, prior to delivery to India, a MiG-29KUB crashed in Russia itself. And how did that Russian Navy Mig 29KUBR crash in the Mediterranean? Shitty car maintenance?

    The Mig 29Ks has seen multiple operational deficiencies in its engines, airframe and fly-by-wire system. Issues related to the engine continue to persist.

    Isos wrote:Russia isn't interested by mig family because their range is half of sukhoi's ones. They need something that can cover their huge territory and they can't buy 1000 of new jets like USSR. So they went with sukhoi only.
    Makes sense. That's why I said that if India intends to import a foreign aircraft it should be the Su 35 not the Mig 35.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:33 pm

    MiG-35 is not an upgrade... the MiG-29M/2 and MiG-29KR and MiG-35 are new aircraft that cannot be applied as upgrades to older model MiG-29 aircraft.

    India has the UPG standard which is the best upgrade so far. If they ask for upgrading them to Mig-35 level then MiG will accept with no conditions. India is the main user of their jets.

    But buying new mig-35 is better.

    They can't upgrade the UPG models to 35 standard just like they can't upgrade any other old MiG-29 version even with SMT upgrades to 35 level because they are different airframes.

    Not sure if Indian Mig 29s can be upgraded completely to a Mig-35. Moreover, Mig-35 is still undergoing its mandated state flight-test campaign. Trials will not be complete before next year.

    They can't.

    To get MiG-29M/2s or MiG-35s then they need to replace with new builds.

    They share an airframe with the naval MiG-29KRs though so if they want cheap numbers fighters that are fully multi-role then MiG-29M/2s on land and at sea, or if money is no object like it seems with French and American planes then all MiG-35s could be used on land and at sea.

    Within Russia itself, rather than trading legacy Fulcrums for brand-new MiG-35s, some squadrons have switched to the “heavyweight” Su-30SM Flanker instead.

    I rather suspect the new MiG-35s will operate with Su-30s with Su-35 avionics and engines and radar, as force multipliers to reduce operational costs with the MiG being smaller and lighter.

    If the Mig-35 is indeed so capable an aircraft ( I'm not saying it isn't) why isn't it finding any buyers? Even Egypt decided to purchase Mig-35s but then changed its mind and purchased MiG-29s instead.

    Not operational yet.

    I think Egypt wants MiG-35s but is waiting. The Russian military seems to want the 35 too which I find strange as the 29M/2 has most of the capability yet is much cheaper... operating it with Su-30s with Su-35 equipment and engines and radar means the MiGs don't need to be super planes... just essentially cheaper extra missile carriers... manned drones.

    India should rather purchase the Su-35. Performance wise and cost wise it is a better deal. Compared to Su 35s, Mig 35s are not very cheap. The cost of a basic MiG-35 is 65% that of the Su-35.

    Because it offers about 95% of the Su-35s performance while being cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate.

    Why? Because the airframe will be new?

    It is their new standard and will likely get LMFS technology transferred to it while MiG develops their new 5th gen fighter design... which should speed up and simplify development while also getting new technologies into service faster.

    Now it's almost ready and all the new systems are almost in production. Signing a contract for upgrades will take 1 year or so to agree. So they can order mig-35 level update now. Indian pilots have already tested it btw.

    Egyptian mig-29M are very close to mig-35. Only the AESA radar is missing IMO. It's much better than the mig-29M of the 90s. Just like the Kr version is different from the K version of the 80s.

    The MiG-29M/2 the Egyptians got is unified in design with the naval MiG-29KR and MiG-35 so essentially they are the same airframe.

    The MiG-29M from the 1980s is a different aircraft and only has a single seat canopy, whereas the MiG-29M/2 KR and 35 all have a two seat canopy whether they have two seats or one fitted and are both fully operational aircraft with one or two seats.

    The original MiG-29s had fully operational single seaters and training two seat UB models with a ranging only radar and therefore no R-27R or R-27ER missile capability. (early MiGs could not carry IR guided R-27s either of either type, though the UB could carry the IR guided missiles).

    India would be stupid to buy something that's not in Russian service itself or isnt planned to be introduced into Russian service in any meaningful quantity

    The MIG-35 is being ordered by the Russian Air Force and will likely operate with Su-30 squadrons, and I suspect it might also operate with PVO type units for short range defence of airfields, and bases where the shorter range is no handicap at all.

    The MiG-35, if it's really offers such a good deal from the doctrinal, technological and value for money points of view, should be in Russian service - yet it's not. The Indians would no doubt ask themselves why, and why they would want it instead.

    Because the radar it is supposed to use is not ready yet... it is on order and its design has been unified with the MiG-29KR so in future the Russian military wont need to wait for an export order for MiG-29KRs before it can tack on an order for planes for their carriers if they need more... they can just tack them on the end of a MiG-35 order, which makes rather more sense and will be cheaper.

    The ability to operate from very short airstrips (like a carrier deck) means they can also operate from short strips of motorway.

    Don't play stupid

    No need to be rude and get personal...

    Russia isn't interested by mig family because their range is half of sukhoi's ones.

    Sometimes that is a good thing. For point defence you don't want your planes to wander off and leave what they are supposed to be protecting open to attack.

    They need something that can cover their huge territory and they can't buy 1000 of new jets like USSR. So they went with sukhoi only. That doesn't mean mig-35 is bad.

    Flanker and Fulcrum have similar flight speeds so essentially cover the same sort of area most of the time.

    When operating at top speeds their range shrinks dramatically to being very much shorter distances...

    Makes sense. That's why I said that if India intends to import a foreign aircraft it should be the Su 35 not the Mig 35.

    Su-35 is just an all Russian Su-30MKI improved... they are different class aircraft.

    MiG-35 would be a much better replacement for MiG-27s and MiG-21s than Su-30s or Su-35s would be...

    They would be both cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate...

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    medo
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    Post  medo Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:03 pm

    In my opinion, Russia could somehow return back to defense principles from USSR. In USSR they have Frontal Aviation of VVS, which supported army and which also operated outside USSR borders and Fighter aviation of Air Defense (IA PVO), which operated only inside Soviet borders.

    Although Su-35 and Su-57 are very capable multirole jets they could be used for Russian air defense only together with half of Su-30SM2 fleet, which could operate as fighters and group commanders. Su-30SM2 will have Irbis radar and engines from Su-35 and data link and IFDL from Su-57. Existing SU-30SM have the same IFDL as Su-35. Su-30SM2 will be perfect platform, for modern command post and group leader.

    For supporting army and foreign operations RuAF could go with other half of Su-30SM2, which will be used for air protection and group leader/command post together with Su-34, Su-25SM3 and MiG-35. Form now I see that in RuAF only MiG-35 have actual targeting pod, so RuAF could use MiG-35 more as bomb truck, while bigger and heavier Su-34 will be used for more specific missions like recce, EW, long range strikes, cruise missiles carriers, etc. MiG-35 with AESA radar will be more or less equal to latest versionf of F/A-18E/F and Rafale and will do similar job.

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    Post  Kiko Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:53 pm

    MiG-35 with AESA radar will be more or less equal to latest versionf of F/A-18E/F and Rafale and will do similar job.
    But outstandingly cheaper.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:49 pm

    India won't need French tankers: The Rafales were refuelled by a French Air Force Airbus A330 Multi-Role Tanker Aircraft (MRTA) during its journey to Al Dhafra (a distance of over 5,000km). Incidentally, a Russian tanker aircraft will be the next to refuel the Rafale, with the IAF’s own IL-76 to handle mid-air refuelling in the next leg of the Rafale’s journey to Delhi.
    https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2020/07/28/iaf-rafales-enroute-to-india-refuel-at-30000-feet.html

    But her IL-78s r not being treated as well as they should be:
    According to a Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) report, tabled in Parliament last year, due to non-availability of hangars, the air assets remained in the open, which adversely affected their serviceability and life. Servicing and maintenance activities also had to be carried out in the open tarmac area, which resulted in delays due to weather conditions. The audit also found poor availability of spares, which affected the serviceability of the aircraft. ..
    Furthermore, the report states that the IL-78s were due for overhaul in 2018-19 and during this process it is proposed to upgrade their engines, which will enable them to take off from shorter runways. However, the report said that the upgradation will take several years, meanwhile air to air capability of the IL-78 fleet will remain constrained
    . https://www.defenseworld.net/news/21851/IAF_Issues_Tender_For_Six_Mid_air_Refuelers_For_Third_Time#.X_n2QNhKiyI

    Russia To Deploy MiG-35 Jets in Syria; Keen To Woo Potential Customers Including India & Malaysia
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:36 am

    Russia will deploy new MiG-35s to Syria to test them in operational conditions to see what changes or modifications they need, but also what works and what does not work... it is a very good opportunity for them to give them a proper operational test.

    BTW not supporting them properly and not keeping them in proper hangars means their ll-78s are not going to last very well... but then this would need to be on purpose because I would suggest western equivalent aircraft would suffer rather more with such neglect and no doubt be more expensive too.
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    Post  RTN Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:04 am

    GarryB wrote:Su-35 is just an all Russian Su-30MKI improved... they are different class aircraft.
    All improved Su 30MKI but different class? What does it even mean?

    It's either a different class of aircraft or it is an improved Su 30MKI.
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    Post  Sujoy Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:42 am

    GarryB wrote:Russia will deploy new MiG-35s to Syria to test them in operational conditions to see what changes or modifications they need, but also what works and what does not work... it is a very good opportunity for them to give them a proper operational test.
    That's old news. Seven months after that news was published, Mig 35s have NOT been deployed in Syria.

    And how challenging are those operational conditions in any case? The adversary hardly has any functional air defense systems in place leave alone a state of the art air force.

    GarryB wrote:BTW not supporting them properly and not keeping them in proper hangars means their ll-78s are not going to last very well... but then this would need to be on purpose because I would suggest western equivalent aircraft would suffer rather more with such neglect and no doubt be more expensive too.
    India certainly needs more hangars. Hangars are usually too small to easily accommodate large aircraft such as IL-78.

    That been said, most air forces' have more aircraft than hangars. You'll notice that several Russia aircraft too like the IL-78 are often parked on runways for lack of hangars.
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    Post  mnztr Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:28 am

    reading about the Russia/India mig 29 deal of the centuary. 21 new MIG-29s and upgrade of 56 existing for $992m. WOW what an insanely good deal. I know the MIGs are being built from 20 year old uncompleted frames but WOW!! Those Indians know how to negotiate a good deal!!!. They could buy 3-4 Rafales from the Frogs for that kinda money..lol I assume the Russians are hoping this will position them well for the new fighter deal?
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    Post  Isos Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:05 am

    mnztr wrote:reading about the Russia/India mig 29 deal of the centuary. 21 new MIG-29s and upgrade of 56 existing for $992m. WOW what an insanely good deal. I know the MIGs are being built from 20 year old uncompleted frames but WOW!! Those Indians know how to negotiate a good deal!!!. They could buy 3-4 Rafales from the Frogs for that kinda money..lol I assume the Russians are hoping this will position them well for the new fighter deal?

    21 old airframes that were kept more than 20 years in storage. Their price as such shouldn't be more than 3-5 million each.

    Hungary tried to sell 20 mig + 300 items (engines, missiles...) for 20 millions. Their state wasn't better than those ones.

    Then 1 billion minus the price of the 21 airframe divided by 77 should be around 10 million per upgrade which is quite normal. I doubt it will be a big upgrade but more like to give them more service life.

    The deal is correct IMO.


    But if I was them I would ask to upgrade the FCS to allow RVV SD use and buy them in good quantity.
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    Post  mnztr Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:52 am

    Isos wrote:

    21 old airframes that were kept more than 20 years in storage. Their price as such shouldn't be more than 3-5 million each.

    Hungary tried to sell 20 mig + 300 items (engines, missiles...) for 20 millions. Their state wasn't better than those ones.

    Then 1 billion minus the price of the 21 airframe divided by 77 should be around 10 million per upgrade which is quite normal. I doubt it will be a big upgrade but more like to give them more service life.


    I think the upgrade is quite extensive and planes built from frames that have been properly stored by the factory are far better then a bunch of heavily used planes that have been stuck out in the weather and ill maintained during the collapse of the USSR. India is getting pretty much brand new planes with multirole update.

    All the frames planes will get 40% more fuel, mod 3 engines, new radar major cockpit updates. Airframe life extension updates.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:28 am

    All improved Su 30MKI but different class? What does it even mean?

    It means upgraded Su-30MKI and Russian Su-35 are big heavy and expensive to buy and operate fighters... very much like an F-15 or F-14 in the west.... and are therefore a different class to the MiG-29/F-16/F-18/M2K/Rafale western lighter aircraft of shorter range.

    Normally described as Hi/lo fighters where one is big and powerful with lots of weapons and long range, while the other is smaller lighter cheaper and more often used in the fighter bomber light strike role where it might drop a laser guided bomb on something and them protect the area with AAMs while other of its kind drop more bombs...

    It's either a different class of aircraft or it is an improved Su 30MKI.

    The Su-35 and Su-30 are essentially both the same aircraft... the first based on the single seat Su-27 and the second based on the two seat Su-27UB... the primary difference is that the Su-30 carries slightly less fuel or the Su-35 carries slightly more in place of the extra cockpit.

    They are in the same class of aircraft.

    That's old news. Seven months after that news was published, Mig 35s have NOT been deployed in Syria.

    Didn't have a deadline for that... they might be preparing a group to send, or waiting for a specific technology they want to test to be ready...

    And how challenging are those operational conditions in any case?

    You are right... they should try to invade Alaska to make it more realistic and useful.

    Except Syria offers a chance to attack real targets with real ordinance using communications with Russian special forces and UAVS and other platforms. The fact that the enemy has no air power or anything other than MANPADS... so what... when was the last time Russia fought such a war?

    They can always invade the Ukraine when they are ready for such tests.

    The adversary hardly has any functional air defense systems in place leave alone a state of the art air force.

    So they accurately simulate most EU countries that border Russia then...

    India certainly needs more hangars. Hangars are usually too small to easily accommodate large aircraft such as IL-78.

    No point complaining about the condition of Russian tankers when you don't keep them in hangars because western tankers wont fare better in Indian conditions without hangars either...

    The solution therefore would be buy hangars and use them and spend money maintaining aircraft... just buying new aircraft and not solving the basic problem just makes things really really expensive because western tankers wont be cheaper and you will be less able to afford hangars for them.

    You'll notice that several Russia aircraft too like the IL-78 are often parked on runways for lack of hangars.

    Russian conditions are more about cold which is consistent... not dust and hot and cold... which is not... very cold is also dry.

    But if I was them I would ask to upgrade the FCS to allow RVV SD use and buy them in good quantity.

    Use of new active radar homing AAMs was part of the MIG-29SM upgrade so later SMT and the Indian UPG upgrades should already allow its use.
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    Post  Isos Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:14 am

    mnztr wrote:
    Isos wrote:

    21 old airframes that were kept more than 20 years in storage. Their price as such shouldn't be more than 3-5 million each.

    Hungary tried to sell 20 mig + 300 items (engines, missiles...) for 20 millions. Their state wasn't better than those ones.

    Then 1 billion minus the price of the 21 airframe divided by 77 should be around 10 million per upgrade which is quite normal. I doubt it will be a big upgrade but more like to give them more service life.


    I think the upgrade is quite extensive and planes built from frames that have been properly stored by the factory are far better then a bunch of heavily used planes that have been stuck out in the weather and ill maintained during the collapse of the USSR. India is getting pretty much brand new planes with multirole update.

    All the frames planes will get 40% more fuel, mod 3 engines, new radar major cockpit updates. Airframe life extension updates.

    The 56 mig-29UPG they operate have already all of that. If they upgrade them it's only to extand their service life or to put mig-35 stuff inside like AESA radar which is doubtful for such price. New engine cost 4-5 millions and the other 5-6 million will be to change hydrolics, pomps... radar and structure will stay as such.

    The 21 new airframes will be upgraded at UPG standard so they will cost more.
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    Post  Sujoy Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:43 pm

    GarryB wrote:You are right... they should try to invade Alaska to make it more realistic and useful.
    Exhibit101- Even tautologies can be articulated elegantly.


    GarryB wrote: The fact that the enemy has no air power or anything other than MANPADS... so what... when was the last time Russia fought such a war?
    After the First Gulf War, export of U.S fighter aircraft went through the roofs because they were able to decimate one of the most densely packed air defense network in the world. How they achieved that can be litigated but fact remains that their bombing campaign was successful and the rest of the world noticed this undertaking.

    Similarly, if Russia has to ensure the success of the MIG -35 in the international market they have to prove that by deploying the Mig 35 against more formidable air defenses.

    Massaging of data till it conforms to a pre-arrived hypothesis might not work. Maybe try invading Israel instead of Alaska.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:57 pm

    Or enforcing a no fly zone over E. Ukraine.

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