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    PAK-DA: News

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:45 am

    Of course another factor is it does not matter what sort of sensors you have on your plane unless your missiles can be command guided... the fact that a new generation radar on your fighter can detect a B-2 at 1,000kms means nothing if your missiles can't get a lock on at any range...

    Of course even old technology radars could be used to locate stealth aircraft simply by widely separating the aircraft and have one or two aircraft scan from different directions but having all aircraft listen for radar returns and collate the results...

    And future radar sets able to detect stealthy shapes all suggest stealth might be useful, but don't put all your eggs in that basket because it is a super expensive basket that will reduce the number of eggs you will be able to move...
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    Post  LMFS Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Dunno no official statement - I'd say there wont be any.  But Sukhoi chief designer said that Su-57 ws optimized for maneuverability  then stealth. Thus has better then F-22/F-35 and is less stealthy.
    It was Davidenko himself that said the F-22 and PAK-FA were in the same ballpark, talking about average RCS. Of course there may be still differences because he was not very precise in the estimations given (they could probably not know by then RCS of F-22 with precision) and also the focus on stealth may not be identical from every aspect.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:19 am

    The difference is that for the guys at the Potomac stealth is the No. 1 criteria. For the russians it is incorporated as much into the design as possible without hampering all other capabilities.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:20 am

    Well I guess that comes from the fact that the American company is trying to sell stealth as the game changer that will give you a generation level advantage over your enemies and your allies... so it has to be amazing... and the more expensive it is well... new stuff is always expensive but this is eye watering expensive so it must be really really good...

    For the Russians it is just an extra piece of the whole puzzle of defending themselves...

    You have to pick a level of stealth... you can go for 0.5 sq metre or you can go for 0.01 sq metre or you can go for 0.00001 sq metre.

    All will reduce the distance at which the enemy will reliably detect your aircraft and over time radars are going to get better and better at detecting small targets, so it is a question of time frame... it might cost 10 billion to get 0.5sq m RCS... it will cost a trillion to get 0.01m because it is not just a case of going from half mm precision in design to micromilimetres precision... you also have to have materials you can make to that level of precision that will retain shape and not warp or bend even after years of use... so it is not just design but manufacturing you have to get right... when you fix something you have to cut open the panel to access the internal components and then you need to replace the panel and cover the edges in tape and paint the RAM back over the whole panel and wait for it to cure before you can fly again.

    Going for 0.00001 sq m would cost trillions of trillions of dollars with no guarantee that in 5 years time there wont be radar of new types that can detect you at enormous range....

    Russia is treating stealth the same way it treats ERA on tanks... on its own it has lots of strengths and weaknesses, together it makes the whole package better as long as it is not too expensive...
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    william.boutros

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    Post  william.boutros Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:15 pm

    GarryB wrote:Well I guess that comes from the fact that the American company is trying to sell stealth as the game changer that will give you a generation level advantage over your enemies and your allies... so it has to be amazing... and the more expensive it is well... new stuff is always expensive but this is eye watering expensive so it must be really really good...

    For the Russians it is just an extra piece of the whole puzzle of defending themselves...

    You have to pick a level of stealth... you can go for 0.5 sq metre or you can go for 0.01 sq metre or you can go for 0.00001 sq metre.

    All will reduce the distance at which the enemy will reliably detect your aircraft and over time radars are going to get better and better at detecting small targets, so it is a question of time frame... it might cost 10 billion to get 0.5sq m RCS... it will cost a trillion to get 0.01m because it is not just a case of going from half mm precision in design to micromilimetres precision... you also have to have materials you can make to that level of precision that will retain shape and not  warp or bend even after years of use... so it is not just design but manufacturing you have to get right... when you fix something you have to cut open the panel to access the internal components and then you need to replace the panel and cover the edges in tape and paint the RAM back over the whole panel and wait for it to cure before you can fly again.

    Going for 0.00001 sq m would cost trillions of trillions of dollars with no guarantee that in 5 years time there wont be radar of new types that can detect you at enormous range....

    Russia is treating stealth the same way it treats ERA on tanks... on its own it has lots of strengths and weaknesses, together it makes the whole package better as long as it is not too expensive...

    Well if radars are improving, for a stealth aircraft to remain relevant it needs to improve its. In this case I don't see how a 0.1 sqm aircraft would be on equal footing with a 0.001 sqm aircraft in 20 years. Especially when the stealthier aircraft has the more powerful radar.


    Last edited by william.boutros on Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:54 pm

    There are no such differences IMO. Continuing with PAK-FA/F-22, which is the only case where we have actual statements from reliable sources, it was said that F-22 was around 0.3-0.5 sqm RCS IIRC and PAK-FA would be 0.1 - 1 sqm (with one order of magnitude interval as a cautious designer would go about it). Those infinitesimal RCS values in the West look very nice in the headlines but are not that relevant in the battlefield, would be better to have the Western equivalent to the averages stated by Russia, and knowing the frequency would be necessary too.

    BTW, I agree with GarryB that to keep such extreme values during the lifetime of the plane is going to be an interesting issue. My personal suspicion with F-22 and B-2 is that they are such a pain in the ass, that air force prefers keeping their fleet as small as possible and go for something better asap. No export, no further versions, small fleet used only scarcely and then go for B-21 and PCA while the predecessors of the VLO planes (F-15, B-1, B-52) will still be operated. This is not what you would expect of a Wunderwaffe, which would be used and replicated as much as possible. Maybe I am wrong but the whole situation of these planes looks very awkward to me.

    Regarding PAK-DA, all aspect broadband stealth based on a very big flying wing is the best approach to keep benefits of stealth design for the future. Against low-level militaries it will have the full advantage of allowing low operational risk and against advanced adversaries the plane will have advanced avionics and defensive means, long persistence and long range missiles. Added to the new manufacturing of Tu-160, Russia will have the whole range of needed solutions covered for the next decades. What I don't see Russian military renouncing to is the ability of withstanding harsh deployment conditions and reduced maintenance, they are pressed enough for the defence of the country to deploy weapons which are non-capable under real world conditions.
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    Post  william.boutros Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:11 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    Regarding PAK-DA, all aspect broadband stealth based on a very big flying wing is the best approach to keep benefits of stealth design for the future. Against low-level militaries it will have the full advantage of allowing low operational risk and against advanced adversaries the plane will have advanced avionics and defensive means, long persistence and long range missiles. Added to the new manufacturing of Tu-160, Russia will have the whole range of needed solutions covered for the next decades. What I don't see Russian military renouncing to is the ability of withstanding harsh deployment conditions and reduced maintenance, they are pressed enough for the defence of the country to deploy weapons which are non-capable under real world conditions.

    It looks like advanced stealth technology requires niche high tech and expensive technologies. The Russians are budget and technologically conscious of their situation. They are likely hedging on Tu-160 load, speed and maturity to throw hypersonic missiles to penetrate defenses.
    Their plan to continue work on a subsonic PAK-DA for 2030s is still in the early stages. I am not sure how relevant a PAK-DA would be in the 2050s. I think the Russians are simply keeping options on the table.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:00 pm

    william.boutros wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    Regarding PAK-DA, all aspect broadband stealth based on a very big flying wing is the best approach to keep benefits of stealth design for the future. Against low-level militaries it will have the full advantage of allowing low operational risk and against advanced adversaries the plane will have advanced avionics and defensive means, long persistence and long range missiles. Added to the new manufacturing of Tu-160, Russia will have the whole range of needed solutions covered for the next decades. What I don't see Russian military renouncing to is the ability of withstanding harsh deployment conditions and reduced maintenance, they are pressed enough for the defence of the country to deploy weapons which are non-capable under real world conditions.

    It looks like advanced stealth technology requires niche high tech and expensive technologies. The Russians are budget and technologically conscious of their situation.  They are likely hedging on Tu-160 load, speed and maturity to throw hypersonic missiles to penetrate defenses.
    Their plan to continue work on a subsonic PAK-DA for 2030s is still in the early stages. I am not sure how relevant a PAK-DA would be in the 2050s. I think the Russians are simply keeping options on the table.

    Money is a myth. Science involves human brain activity and not currency flux. Western propaganda has drilled the fiction of "more money equals more knowhow and tech"
    into everyone's brain and they repeat it without a second thought. The issue with stealth is diminishing returns. Regardless of money there is no point making ever surface
    angular since the aircraft is big enough to be visible from a broad collection of angles. Stealth fanbois yap about how inferior the Su-57 is because it has round nozzles.
    They are morons. If the aircraft is scanned from below (which is likely if it overpasses enemy territory) the none of the stealth matters for any stealth aricraft. This includes
    the precious RAM. No material in the universe acts like a black hole absorbing and not emitting all EM frequencies. All materials that absorb must emit. RAM only works
    on dinosaur scanning equipment which uses a very limited set of bands for scanning and detection. Any broadband detector will detect RAM emissions. RAM obviously cannot
    be a perfect reflector. Stealth needs to be deployed in the forward and side aspect of the aircraft. Idiot fanbois bleat about round nozzles while ignore the absurd billboard
    sized rudders on the F-22. The Su-57 has a vastly smaller side cross section than the US wunderwaffe.

    The PAK-DA will have judicious application of stealth just like the PAK-FA. Poverty and small budgets are simply not an issue. No RAM that the US deploys costs
    the same as platinum. None of the angled surfaces require any innovation in manufacturing technology. The reason US projects cost so much is because of
    corruption.
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    Post  LMFS Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:14 pm

    william.boutros wrote:Their plan to continue work on a subsonic PAK-DA for 2030s is still in the early stages. I am not sure how relevant a PAK-DA would be in the 2050s. I think the Russians are simply keeping options on the table.
    Russians always hedge against contingencies in their plans, as anybody with a functioning brain does. It is only those who want to make a program too big and important to fail that eliminate the alternatives before seeing what will come out of the development Wink
    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:15 pm

    Hole wrote:The difference is that for the guys at the Potomac stealth is the No. 1 criteria. For the russians it is incorporated as much into the design as possible without hampering all other capabilities.

    Tht's how I see, it



    william.boutros wrote:

    It looks like advanced stealth technology requires niche high tech and expensive technologies. The Russians are budget and technologically conscious of their situation.  They are likely hedging on Tu-160 load, speed and maturity to throw hypersonic missiles to penetrate defenses.
    Their plan to continue work on a subsonic PAK-DA for 2030s is still in the early stages. I am not sure how relevant a PAK-DA would be in the 2050s. I think the Russians are simply keeping options on the table.


    B-52 will be still in service then Id not worry too much about PAK DA. Long range loitering high payload plane is always welcome. Besides Im not sure why to comparison   RCS without considering doctrine makes any sense?

    F-22 has worse maneuverability then Su-57,  I won't even mention  F-35 here. F-22, not to mention F-35, is fairly crappy  in comparison with MG-31 in terms of speed, ceiling.'


    Each of them, though, has own mission and is fit for purpose.


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:49 am; edited 1 time in total
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:55 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Hole wrote:The difference is that for the guys at the Potomac stealth is the No. 1 criteria. For the russians it is incorporated as much into the design as possible without hampering all other capabilities.

    Tht's how I see, it



    william.boutros wrote:

    It looks like advanced stealth technology requires niche high tech and expensive technologies. The Russians are budget and technologically conscious of their situation.  They are likely hedging on Tu-160 load, speed and maturity to throw hypersonic missiles to penetrate defenses.
    Their plan to continue work on a subsonic PAK-DA for 2030s is still in the early stages. I am not sure how relevant a PAK-DA would be in the 2050s. I think the Russians are simply keeping options on the table.


    B-52 will be still in service then Id not worry too much about PAK DA. Long range loitering high payload plane is always welcome. Besides Im not sure why to comparison   RCS without considering doctrine makes any sense?

    F-22 has worse maneuverability then Su-57,  I wont even mention  F-35 here. F-22 not to mention F-35 it fairly crappy  crap comparing with MG-31 in terms of speed, ceiling.'
    Ech of them hs own mission n dis fit for purpose.  

    Stealth has become hubris koolaid drunk by western planners. Recall the "Diplomat" (or some similar named journal which is the platform of the NATO elites) article about how
    stealthy B-2s would fly deep over Russia to guarantee the success of a US first strike. These clowns need brain replacement surgery.
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    Post  eehnie Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:35 pm

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t161p950-uavs-in-russian-armed-forces-news#249152

    Austin wrote:Okhotnik    Air International/ Piotr Butwoski

    PAK-DA: News - Page 40 Okhotn10

    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201802250940-tffd.htm
    https://sputniknews.com/military/201802261061999563-russian-long-range-drone-infiltrator/

    Russian Military Developing Long-Range Supersonic Missile-Lobbing Drone

    ©️ Sputnik / Vladimir Fedorenko
    MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE
    14:12 26.02.2018(updated 14:43 26.02.2018) Get short URL3813

    Designed to infiltrate far into an enemy's territory, the new system will carry both guided and unguided munitions.

    Russia is working on a long-range unmanned strike system, Zvezda, the official television channel of the Russian Ministry of Defense, has learned.

    Speaking to the television channel, Alexander Nemov, deputy chief of the research department at the 30th Central Scientific Research Institute outside Moscow, confirmed that the large unmanned aircraft would appear sometime in the next few years.

    "Development work is currently underway on a long-range unmanned system capable of carrying out unmanned low-altitude supersonic flights, and striking both stationary and mobile targets at operational-strategic depth," the officer explained.

    Zvezda clarified that the aircraft will, on the one hand, be capable of performing low-altitude flights, much like a cruise missile, and will fly faster than the speed of sound, providing the Russian military with fundamentally new strategic capabilities not currently enjoyed by any other military in the world.

    Asked about the prospective aircraft's onboard weapons, Nemov was able to divulge only that the system "will have the ability to carry both guided and unguided air-launched weapons."

    ©️ SPUTNIK / SERGEY MAMONTOV

    Possible Reason for Deployment of Russia's 5th Gen Su-57 to Syria Revealed
    The 30th Central Scientific Research Institute's other projects include plans to create a new strike chopper, combining the capabilities of the Kamov Ka-52 and the Mil Mi-28. The new chopper will feature an additional wing, and be capable of flying over 400 km per hour. The Institute is also working on unmanned helicopter systems, which will interact with conventional rotary-winged aircraft on the battlefield. Researchers are also engaged in an evaluation of the ergonomics of the new Sukhoi Su-57 multi-role fighter's control systems.
    In November, the Kalashnikov Concern reported that it would start production of heavy unmanned aerial vehicles capable of carrying up to several tons of cargo and operating for several days at a time without needing to recharge. The system is expected to be introduced this summer. The UAVs will work in a fleet consisting of heavy and light drones. In addition to cargo delivery, the remote-controlled aircraft are expected to engage in aerial photography, cartography, telecommunications, monitoring of viral diseases, protection of forests and property, weather conditions, and more.


    Well, finally the reality is coming to put the things in the right place.

    Interesting to read the article included in the picture. The press is taking the words of Alexander Nemov, like refered to the new Unmanned Combat Air Vehicle called Okhotnik, and surely they are right.

    Looking at the picture of the Okhotnik prototype in the article included by Austin? (good to enlarge the image)

    The bad news for the pro-US and pro-Israel group in this forum is that what can be achieved for the Okhotnik prototype in the refered to the supersonic speed can also be achieved for the future Tu-PAK-DA.

    In fact this Okhotnik prototype seems a Tu-PAK-DA scaled to the size of a light fighter. Obviously it can work perfectly like a pre-prototype of the Tu-PAK-DA.


    To note that the construction of the first prototype of the Tu-PAK-DA begins in 2019, and is planned to be finished by 2025.

    Congratulations to the Russian engineers.  thumbsup  thumbsup  thumbsup

    Supersonic Tu-PAK-DA? Very very very likely.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:27 am

    A flying wing has seriously low drag, but if it is to be supersonic then it will need to have very specific cross sectional shape... but with good engines (and we know they have good engines already) they could possibly make it a supercruising bomber... which would make it a new generation bomber.

    I would expect the Blackjacks in the new upgraded form should be supercruising too...

    If both are supercruising then the F-35 is eliminated as an effective interceptor to stop them... which will eliminate the threat of possibly up to 2,500 NATO fighters...
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:10 am

    There is no particular value of using a flying wing design. It is not going to be a lifting body anyway, so might as well upgrade the
    Tu-160 into an advanced "sealth" design. Flying wings are some sort of Nazi fetish that suit well the Reich's successors, the USA.

    Based on physics arguments I would argue against using delta-wings. Too much surface area for not much advantage.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:29 am

    The whole point of a lifting body design is because on a conventional aircraft design with a body the body structure adds drag and RCS but does not improve lift.

    So body adds drag and does not improve lift = lowers general aerodynamic performance...

    A flying wing on the other hand is all lifting surface and no structure wasted on a body or other unnecessary portion.

    A flying wing design is the lowest drag highest lift design you could achieve, but of course there are volume issues... you need volume to contain a big bomb load and of course for very long range aircraft a lot of fuel as well so a thick flying wing is not so aerodynamic at supersonic speeds and in fact a strategic bomber flying wing might need to be too thick to be made supersonic capable even with TVC engines.

    And those Americans seem to love that nazi shit don't they...
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    Post  eehnie Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:43 pm


    By the end, those that insulted me also about this topic, must surrender to the reality.

    Habitually the reality does not leave my words in bad place.

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