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Isos
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    Production Costs of Aircrafts/Helicopters

    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:05 pm

    There are lot of informations about one country buys XXX Attack Helicopters from another country for the total costs of XX Mln/Bln USD.

    The problem is when comparing one information with the another how much one unit would cost there are diffrent costs.
    The point is often such reports wich are reffering to dealings don't provide often and reliable sources about what kind of deal and its transfers it's inclueding, like extra parts,engines,teaching personal,personal to teach maintenance for foreign mechanics, and so on.

    Also i don't believe that Attack Helicopters have a standard price per unit for every willing buyer.Since it's a question about buisness i think the Unit costs can variate from customer to customer.
    Not all cows giving exactly 2 liters milk, others give more so i think they will be milked when they could manage this.

    So the question is about the Unit costs for the developing country wich should have a moderate prize per unit.

    So here is the question to the community wich maybe has more reliable sources about the actual costs per Unit for all Attack Helicopters you could know.

    I mean there are sources wich claim that Mi-28N costs about 8 Mln USD per unit and other claims it costs 45 Mln USD (not ruble).
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:50 pm

    hi does anyone know the actual cost of MI-35 hind and MI-17 hip?? also if anyone wants to share any other costs of aircraft please post.
    Deep Throat
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    Post  Deep Throat Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:50 pm

    Ballpark price for MI 35 this fiscal is $ 36 million

    Ballpark price for MI 17 this fiscal is $ 16 million

    It depends on which country is buying and how many have been ordered .
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:26 pm

    Mi-28 costs around 35 million and Ka-52 a bit more, so I am pretty skeptical that Mi-35 is similar in price.
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:14 pm

    yeah i agree, thought the hind was about half that of a mi-28, about 18-20million maybe i am wrong.


    TR1 wrote:Mi-28 costs around 35 million and Ka-52 a bit more, so I am pretty skeptical that Mi-35 is similar in price.
    d_taddei2
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    Production Costs of Aircrafts/Helicopters Empty Production and cost

    Post  d_taddei2 Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:31 pm

    Hi all, thanks for reading,

    Does anyone know the production and costs for Mig 29SMT or M2, and the MI-35????? any info would be great. I know the cost can vary any export costs or sales to Russian armed forces would be great. I personally think these two are a must have in any basic or advanced armed forces. Any info would be great.
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:12 pm

    Well, Russian AF is buying 16 MiG-29SMT for 473 million dollars...but that was before the Ruble crashed. So who knows what the cost is now.
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:22 pm

    TR1 wrote:Well, Russian AF is buying 16 MiG-29SMT for 473 million dollars...but that was before the Ruble crashed. So who knows what the cost is now.


    thanks for the info, thats pretty good price, 29.5 million per aircraft, for what i would call a decent aircraft. Smile
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:09 am

    It is no uber 5th gen super fighter, but it is fully multirole and you can buy a wide range of air to air and air to ground weapons for it.

    Attach something like Damocles or the new targeting pod they are developing for the MiG-35 and MiG-29M2 and you would have an aircraft every bit as good as any modern in service western aircraft.
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:27 pm

    GarryB wrote:It is no uber 5th gen super fighter, but it is fully multirole and you can buy a wide range of air to air and air to ground weapons for it.

    Attach something like Damocles or the new targeting pod they are developing for the MiG-35 and MiG-29M2 and you would have an aircraft every bit as good as any modern in service western aircraft.

    nice Very Happy

    i think Russia should try and push sales of Mig-29SMT/M2, as well as SU-27, SU-24.
    Firstly the Mig-29SMT/M2 would be ideal to for airforces on a smaller budget, and once sold means that you effectively have them tied to maintainence, repair, and spare parts costs, as well as taking away potential sales opportunities from other countries, apart from China no other country can really offer such a decent aircraft at a decent price and you also have Russia's no nonsense approach to selling military equipment. I might wrong in saying this but even if china offered a cheaper aircraft i am still dubious to the quality of it.

    As for the Su-27 and Su-24, both upgraded to SM and M2 would still make them attractive for foreign buyers while it would give Russia a chance to replace them with Su-35 and Su-34.

    do you or anyone know whats likely to happen with MI-24's? i remember reading that most are coming to the end of their life. And it seems Russia are only replacing a small number with Mi-35, but i could be wrong, 11 Mi-35's have been delivered every year for the last 3 yrs to the Russian airforce.
    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:14 pm

    They won't take all Mi-24's out of service at least not within next 5 years, what they will do is modernize even more after the fleet park of Mi-28 has reached the wanted number, since the Mi-24 is an absolute unique helicopter they will need it for lot of different missions.
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:19 pm

    Werewolf wrote:They won't take all Mi-24's out of service at least not within next 5 years, what they will do is modernize even more after the fleet park of Mi-28 has reached the wanted number, since the Mi-24 is an absolute unique helicopter they will need it for lot of different missions.

    Huh? I have not seen any plans whatsoever that they intend to modernize legacy Hinds- especially since new attack helos are arriving in large numbers.

    They bought 48 new Mi-35s in any case, so those will be around for a while.
    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:29 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:They won't take all Mi-24's out of service at least not within next 5 years, what they will do is modernize even more after the fleet park of Mi-28 has reached the wanted number, since the Mi-24 is an absolute unique helicopter they will need it for lot of different missions.

    Huh? I have not seen any plans whatsoever that they intend to modernize legacy Hinds- especially since new attack helos are arriving in large numbers.

    They bought 48 new Mi-35s in any case, so those will be around for a while.

    Not now, but there also no other plans but to exchange the oldest versions and the oldest by fuselage Mi-24's that are currently stored with newly build Mi-35, but there are few hundreds that have a fairly young age and haven't reached their maximum lifespan yet and since they do not plan to withdraw all stored hinds i doubt they will just scrap them and stay with 130 Mi-24VM2's.
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:35 pm

    Werewolf wrote:They won't take all Mi-24's out of service at least not within next 5 years, what they will do is modernize even more after the fleet park of Mi-28 has reached the wanted number, since the Mi-24 is an absolute unique helicopter they will need it for lot of different missions.


    Of course the Mi-24 is a unique helicopter but surely it would be better to start to replace them with Mi-35's over the course of the next few years, then they could sell the Mi-24's to foreign markets who have already have Mi-24's The Mi-35 is so much better, unless of course they have plans in place to design and build and new helicopter with the similar unique design and are using the mi-35 as a stop gap to replace end of life Mi-24;s intil the design is complete. I hope in the future they don't scrap the unique design of the hind, my fear is they will go down the route of having dedicated attack heli's like Mi-28, armour scout Ka-52, and transports like Mi-17 and this will be done to stream line things. i hope if doesnt happen. The Hinds design is ideal in inserting special forces in hostile areas, the armour and fire power cant be match by transports such as Mi-17. And when its not being used as that you still have it as an attack heli/gunship. I personally think if your armed forces only had to have one type of attack heli then this should be the one as as it versatility is greater than Mi-28 etc.
    mack8
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    Post  mack8 Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:57 pm

    TR1 wrote:Well, Russian AF is buying 16 MiG-29SMT for 473 million dollars...but that was before the Ruble crashed. So who knows what the cost is now.

    Imo it's going to be much less, equivalent to say 350-400 million? They are priced in roubles not dollars, i doubt the rouble fall makes any significant difference, they are not importing anything to build those MiGs so i can't see why their price in roubles should change.
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:30 pm

    mack8 wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Well, Russian AF is buying 16 MiG-29SMT for 473 million dollars...but that was before the Ruble crashed. So who knows what the cost is now.

    Imo it's going to be much less, equivalent to say 350-400 million? They are priced in roubles not dollars, i doubt the rouble fall makes any significant difference, they are not importing anything to build those MiGs so i can't see why their price in roubles should change.

    Because prices have changed in Russia. MiG can't just pay the exact same amount to its workers, or assume its production costs/subcontractor orders will stay identical in rubles.
    If they do not re-negotiate the price, they will lose money on this contract.
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:43 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    mack8 wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Well, Russian AF is buying 16 MiG-29SMT for 473 million dollars...but that was before the Ruble crashed. So who knows what the cost is now.

    Imo it's going to be much less, equivalent to say 350-400 million? They are priced in roubles not dollars, i doubt the rouble fall makes any significant difference, they are not importing anything to build those MiGs so i can't see why their price in roubles should change.

    Because prices have changed in Russia. MiG can't just pay the exact same amount to its workers, or assume its production costs/subcontractor orders will stay identical in rubles.
    If they do not re-negotiate the price, they will lose money on this contract.

    It really all depdends. But that seems very cheap upgrade costs.

    That said, are there any further orders for more MiG-29 upgrades and new ones? Any word on MiG-35?
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    owais.usmani

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    Production Costs of Aircrafts/Helicopters Empty Surprised to see that Su-30SM is almost half the cost of a Su-35S

    Post  owais.usmani Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:07 pm



    Surprised to see that Su-30SM is almost half the cost of a Su-35S. Suspect

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Mon Oct 04, 2021 1:25 pm

    The complete article from Izvestia:

    "Superalligator" for a billion: The Defense Ministry approved the price of new helicopters

    Despite the increased price tag, the Ka-52M attack aircraft are still cheaper than their Western competitors

    The Defense Ministry has agreed on the price for the first samples of Ka-52M helicopters. Each of them will cost more than a billion rubles, Izvestia found out. Upgraded vehicles with improved optics, radar and long-range weapons are now completing tests — the Ministry of Defense has already signed a contract with manufacturers for the supply of the first batch of 30 units. In terms of price, the new helicopters are close to the S-30SM fighters that were purchased in previous years. However, experts note that this amount is still much lower than that of competitors in the global arms market.
    Technology per billion

    The first upgraded Ka-52M will cost 1 billion 75 million rubles each, according to the aircraft insurance documents available to Izvestia. However, this is the price of a "naked ""Superalligator" — it does not include ammunition and ground equipment, spare parts and other accessories. In fact, the Ka-52M cost is very close to the Su-30SM multi-purpose fighters (1 billion 187 million rubles). At the same time, the Superalligator is much cheaper than the Su-35S (2 billion 287 million rubles) and the Su-57, which costs the military department more than 3 billion rubles per board.

    State joint testing of the Ka-52M is currently in its final stages. In August 2021, at the Army-2021 forum, the Defense Ministry signed a contract with Russian Helicopters for the supply of the first 30 production helicopters of this type. They should enter the army in 2022-2023.

    Earlier, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Alexey Krivoruchko announced plans for the military department to purchase more than a hundred new Ka-52MS by 2027.

    "Superalligators" at the current exchange rate are worth about $15 million. Similar helicopters of the United States or European countries are much more expensive, said military expert Andrey Frolov.

    "At the beginning of this year, the Americans signed a contract to supply Australia with Apache helicopters, "he told Izvestia. - It is clear that it contains items on maintenance, training and a number of others, but the price is nevertheless much higher than ours — $115 million apiece. The lighter American Super Cobra sells for $75 million. European Tiger, regardless of configuration, is also significantly more expensive than the Ka-52M. The cheapest of them for an internal customer 10 years ago cost €27 million, the more advanced one — 35 million. They were sold to Australians for about $44 million per unit. Clearly, prices have only gone up since then.

    But we must take into account that a little over a billion rubles for the Ka-52M is a price for an internal customer, the expert noted.

    "There will be a different final price tag for buyers from abroad," he explained. — This practice is widespread all over the world. The Russian Mi-8 and Mi-17 transport planes are sold abroad for more than $30 million per unit, and the Ka-52M combat aircraft will be much more expensive. But it will still be more accessible than its foreign counterparts.
    Alligators for export

    In May 2021, the head of Rosoboronexport, Alexander Mikheev, announced plans to bring the upgraded Ka-52M to the international market after completing their tests.

    The naval version of the original Ka-52 is already in service in Egypt. In 2015, this country signed a contract for 46 such helicopters, becoming their first foreign customer. They are used both on land and on Egyptian universal landing ships-docks. For the possibility of landing on a swinging deck, they reinforced the landing gear and structure. The developers also took care of the anti-corrosion treatment for operations at sea. In addition, the helicopters received folding blades and wings so that they can be placed in internal hangars, raised and lowered on special elevators.

    Deliveries to Egypt began in 2017. Russian combat vehicles are used here in parallel with the previously purchased American AH-64D Apache. In recent years, they have been seen operating together in major exercises.

    The usual "Alligators" have already been tested in real battles. They fought with the Syrian Arab Republic, including being used to liberate Palmyra. In 2016-2017, several sea-going Ka-52KS were tested on board the Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier during its cruise to the coast of Syria. They also took part in battles with extremists.

    In September of this year, it was reported that China was considering purchasing 36 Ka-52K helicopters from Russia. The country's defense ministry wants to equip its large amphibious ships with them.
    "Super" for Russia

    The decision to upgrade the Ka-52 was made after studying the combat experience of using the machine in Syria. The actions of the helicopters were recognized as successful, but also identified areas that require improvement.

    The Defense Ministry signed a contract for development work in April 2019. The first of two prototypes of the Ka-52M took off on August 10 last year, and their tests should finally be completed in 2022.

    Combat vehicles are seriously updated. The helicopter received an improved optoelectronic system that will allow it to detect targets at a much longer distance, especially at night. The new radar station with an active phased array will allow you to feel more confident when flying at low altitude in difficult weather conditions, as well as be used to detect ground and air enemies.

    In addition, the new radar will ensure the effective use of the most long-range missiles. The KA-52M, as well as the Mi-28NM, will be equipped with a new light multi-purpose guided missile, known as the Product 305. There was also information about plans to use even more long-range Hermes-A complexes from these vehicles.

    For better interaction with the troops, the helicopter will be able to automatically pair with the Sagittarius reconnaissance, control and communications complex. This will help scouts and gunners from the ground directly transmit the coordinates of targets to the crews.

    The new digital drive of the 30-millimeter cannon will allow you to hold the target more confidently in the sight and improve the stabilization when shooting, and therefore the accuracy of fire. Heated blades will facilitate the operation of the Ka-52M in areas with a cold climate.

    https://iz.ru/1230276/anton-lavrov-bogdan-stepovoi/superalligator-za-milliard-minoborony-utverdilo-tcenu-novykh-vertoletov

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    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:00 pm

    Isos wrote:That's 14 million € for a su-30SM and 26 million € for a su-35.

    I doubt the figure about the su-30. It shouldn't be far from su-35 price.

    14 billion for a russian chopper is reasonble.

    More than fair. You'd actually have actual money left over to pay for infrastructure and training your manpower to make use of the stuff than if you just up and bought Western. That is, if el chimichanga doesn't pocket the difference to pay for mansions and yachts Twisted Evil
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:43 pm

    lyle6 wrote:
    Isos wrote:That's 14 million € for a su-30SM and 26 million € for a su-35.

    I doubt the figure about the su-30. It shouldn't be far from su-35 price.

    14 billion for a russian chopper is reasonble.

    More than fair. You'd actually have actual money left over to pay for infrastructure and training your manpower to make use of the stuff than if you just up and bought Western. That is, if el chimichanga doesn't pocket the difference to pay for mansions and yachts Twisted Evil

    That's the domestic price. Indians have paid their mki around 70 million piece. Su-30MK2/MKM are around 35-40 million $.
    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:24 pm

    Isos wrote:
    That's the domestic price. Indians have paid their mki around 70 million piece. Su-30MK2/MKM are around 35-40 million $.
    Its still cheaper. You'd be hard pressed to find a Western jet that goes for sub-100 million $ a pop.

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    zepia
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    Post  zepia Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:41 pm

    Su-57 is roughly cost 30% more than Su-35. Being an entirely new platform that's not bad at all.
    And the Checkmate projection cost is around the Su-35 price range. That's interesting.
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:26 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:

    Surprised to see that Su-30SM is almost half the cost of a Su-35S. Suspect

    How reliable is the source. Am surprised that Su-30SM is only $1.6m more than a ka-52m.
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    Post  franco Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:49 pm

    https://iz-ru.translate.goog/1230276/anton-lavrov-bogdan-stepovoi/superalligator-za-milliard-minoborony-utverdilo-tcenu-novykh-vertoletov?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=nui

    Original article from Izvestiya, a major newspaper.

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