GarryB wrote: Imagine a manned space Ark sent to a star 3 light years away to land on a new extrasolar planet only to find the readings were wrong and the planet they arrived on was totally unsuitable for human habitation...
I can't imagine sending humans or our descendants to an extrasolar planet on the basis of a single faulty mission by a nanoprobe, or a few. They'd make darn sure it was habitable before making a big commitment.
Would be the same issues for aliens coming here... the distances are probably so great it will need to be planned well in advance and after the mission is committed to something else might screw things up...
There have been a few reports of aliens fighting one another. But this is very rare considering the variety of reported beings, which suggests peaceful relations throughout the galaxy.
There was almost a catastrophe: the US military talked about meetings with UFOs and showed a video Here is my own sighting: Below is what I submitted to director@ufocenter.com on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 at 18:43:27 -THEY DIDN'T POST THIS FOR SOME REASON! 100 Date: 09/20/2005 110 Time: 19:45 120 Duration: <3min 130 Sighting City: Ajo 140 Sighting State: AZ 150 Sighting Zip: 85321 160 Sighting County: Pima 170 Witnesses: 1 172 Shape: Disk 168 Number of Craft: 1 190 Description: I WAS SCANNING THE SKY WITH MY BINOCULARS WHEN I NOTICED AN ORANGE/YELLOW DISCK MOVING FROM NW TO SW, IT WAS BRIGHTER THAN A SATTELITE, WITH NO SOUND AND NO NAVIGATIONAL LIGHTS (I.E. GREEN, RED OR WHITE). I GRABBED MY PALM CAMCORDER AND GOT IT ON TAPE. THE OBJECT CHANGED ITS COURSE TO SOUTH NEAR THE END OF SIGHTING, AT WHICH TIME ITS GLOW FADED. ABOUT 10-15 MIN. LATER I SPOTTED WITH MY BINOCULARS A MILITARY JET (IDed BY THE WHITE BLINKING LIGHT)- FAR TO THE SOUTH FROM THE NEARBY AF RANGE AND AIR CORRIDOR USED BY THE A-10s GROUND ATTACK PLANES- FLYING ON INTERCEPTION COURSE FROM D-M AFB TOWARD THE AREA WERE THE DISC WAS LAST SEEN HEADING TO. I AM AN EXPERIENCED OBSERVER WITH 5+ YEARS IN THE U.S. NAVAL AVIATION.
Tsavo Lion wrote: There was almost a catastrophe: the US military talked about meetings with UFOs and showed a video
Reports of this kind are almost certainly disinformation with the same agenda as many other bogus reports over the years.
Here is my own sighting: Below is what I submitted to director@ufocenter.com on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 at 18:43:27 -THEY DIDN'T POST THIS FOR SOME REASON!
Sightings like this are no doubt exciting to you or anyone who has a similar experience, but there are so many...every month or few months. Btw sitchin was a charlatan and so is anyone who says Phobos will come very close to Earth.
You said yourself that some physics and cosmology department is voodoo. But you believe that some other theory is not. I think universe is complex, and finding the truth needs a mind that is free of bias or overvalued ideas and is logical. A collective effort is needed, value should be given to all who contribute. It maybe that the bigger picture needs collection of little pictures into a whole. No redicule or bias or hostility.
@GarryB
You say we don't know enough to say. Yet you say you know enough to say that this or that about God. I agree to some extent about religions. We know what they can do. But creationist thinking is relevant to cosmology. Again the metric and framework is reason and science.
https://youtu.be/s2ULF5WixMM
@Tsavolion
Why are there so many civilian reports of sightings and few official or military sightings ? No official telescope or observatory sightings? Are these phenomenon only visible to civilians? Whatever they are. So obviously there is an effort not to publish to public. But why? If they are planet Venus or Marsh gas? It will put people at ease. No need to storm area 51. This one got out of the bag! Is it a plane? What type?
https://youtu.be/G9D8dzl4zGk
Last edited by nomadski on Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
You said yourself that some physics and cosmology department is voodoo. But you believe that some other theory is not. I think universe is complex, and finding the truth needs a mind that is free of bias or overvalued ideas and is logical. A collective effort is needed, value should be given to all who contribute. It maybe that the bigger picture needs collection of little pictures into a whole. No redicule or bias or hostility.
It is voodoo since the naive views of physicists from the 1910s and 1920s are being presented as all-time truth. No, they reflect the ignorance of the period. That is why I posted recent papers which have advanced understanding of physics. Anyone who insists on pushing obsolete interpretations may as well insist that we believe the "physics" of the 1400s. There is a clear gradient of ignorance increasing into the past. Slowly we are moving closer to the truth, but anyone who claims current interpretations are the ultimate truth is a witchdoctor.
https://arxiv.org/abs/1606.08444
Recent work on the emergence of space itself from an abstract quantum entity that does not have a spatial extent in our understanding. This is real research. Crap that repeats 100 year old nonsense is a waste of time. To this day GR "experts" keep using singluar (information non-conserving) transformations to map between coordinate systems. Back in 1916 they did not know that only diffeomorphisms could be used as valid coordinate transforms. The principle of general covariance does not justify using transforms that create information from nothing and destroy information since that has zero to do with GR. All the rubbish purporting to prove that the event horizon is a "coordinate singularity" is based on mathematical and physical ignorance. The event horizon is manifestly a physical singularity since all geodesics that cross it do so with a local speed of light. That is why it is an infinite red-shift surface for EM waves originating within it and an infinite blue-shift surface for all EM waves that propagate towards it.
I was being taught the nonsense Copenhagen school interpretation of QM with the ridiculous, ad hoc notion that some magical observer collapses the wave function during measurements. This view is quaint and obsolete since we know that quantum systems are entangled. Any observer is just another quantum system so is entangled even before any measurement is done.
I don't know your terminology exactly. But will respond. This entity you talk about is supposedly non - extended in our space. And even if is quantum entangled ( is related ) is not related to us. This does not make sense. I think this entity is extended into our space and time. But the flow of information is from particles to entity only.
If GR model says that information is not carried by particles, then their relations are determined by other physical factors. Does this exclude that they are quantum entangled with the entity and not each other? Why should this property be exclusive to the non- extended entity? Since the entity can have relations established through all the particles. A complex of relations.
If information is exchanged , between particles, then it is not possible that they are destroyed. Since either they exist ( and are exchanged) or they don't.
So you say, at surface of black hole, no quantum entanglement exists. Particles travel at speed of light. Why should they not preserve this quality. The entity relating at infinite speed with particles. From this viewpoint, all other events occur instantly, outside black hole.
Some observer collapsing? Either the entity as observer collapsing ( intervening) , since entangled with particles and exchanging information therefore observer. Or particles themselves entangled and exchanging information and observing and changing. Or both. But if flow of information to entity is outward only, then particle as observer changing and evolving, communicating.
Creationism means no need to investigate or learn what has happened... it is just that god did it... and then manipulation and spin, so when the bible can be interpreted to say the earth is 6 thousand years old and we work out through real science that it is rather older than that you can make shit up without ever leaving your living room... ie the universe was created with a built in history, so while the universe is only 6,000 years old it was created with fossils and a back history to go with it.... or perhaps 6,000 years back then actually meant 6 billion years or some such rubbish.
The issue is that creationism has no value except to prop up belief in a god or gods, whereas real science delivers every day, useful things that help us and make our lives better.
There is currently no cure for cancer but my money is on scientists and doctors working out a solution before priests and their prayers manage anything.
Of course having said that I think Science has probably contributed to the cause of cancers with all the chemicals released into the environment... particularly pesticides and other known toxic poisons.
GarryB wrote:....so while the universe is only 6,000 years old it was created with fossils and a back history to go with it...
In light of the fossil record just since the start of the Phanerozoic, for the world to be just 6,000 years old, there had to have been a complete faunal turnover every few years or so....How strange that "god" couldn't make up his mind for so long....
Of course having said that I think Science has probably contributed to the cause of cancers with all the chemicals released into the environment... particularly pesticides and other known toxic poisons.
I think most cancer results from the mistakes of individuals, like smoking or eating carcinogenic food. Toxins like pesticides do cause harm, but more likely parkinson's disease.
Man understands the world with science of his day. His science grows as does his understanding. I found this video Interesting.
https://youtu.be/_ie9musGEqQ
https://youtu.be/_Ii-bsrHB0o
@ starman
Yes. True that there are some. But compared to total number of over million reported each year. A small percentage. There should be statistically more. More false positives. But then can we rely on officialdom with vested interest to lie? To hide actual tech. Or to misdirect our research into expensive anti - gravity propulsion blind alley? With photo shop? So we must look for people with no vested interest to sell books or TV programme or YouTube ratings. People who are neutral and do not gain by apparantley loosing face! More convincing this way. We must rule out hoaxes and hallucinations and religious experiences........
I think old undoctored film or photo by civilian is one of best starting point. Some " ufologists" had recently colluded to present hoaxes to sell books and TV programme. Do you know of more reliable sources. Historical evidence that does not or can not have a religious Earthly explanation.
Well I am saying that many false positives captured by public, such as planets or ordinary aircraft or Atmospheric events should be captured and should be reported by authorities for what they are. So public are not panicked. But if they are other things, they can still keep quiet. But some authorities deliberately give disinformation. A case in Vietnam where local folklore was used by CIA, about jungle apeman, to keep locals out of area for military operation. This was done by dressing someone up in monkey coat.
About ancient civilization. We use probabilistic reasoning. Ancient astronaut theory, never considers other Earthly explanations and their probability. Also we must use logic. If this hypothesis of aliens coming to Earth to mine gold is examined, we find it highly improbable. Since a star travelling civilization would much more efficiently mine with machines. And building machines for mining is surely simple for technological society. So I refute this idea and translations of Sumeria.
To find out the meaning of these texts, independent experts need to examine and confirm as authentic the evidence and translations. If tablets are translated, correctly, they will probably indicate invasions by other tribes and enslavement. From the initial photo in this link by Tsavolion about Sumeria. I can not say at all that depiction is of planets around our sun. They seem to depict a bright object, around which are some 11 small spheres, and one sphere between two figures to the right!
Having said this, the ancients had astronomy and cosmology. They were aware of some planets in our solar system. But they only had naked eye. Yet they achieved some insights into cosmology, predicting the lifespan of universe and our sun and size of black holes ! And were able to discover the procession of planet Earth, the slowing of Earth rotation about it's axis as related to lifespan of known universe ! All done by humans. These were Earthly achievements.
nomadski wrote:Since a star travelling civilization would much more efficiently mine with machines. And building machines for mining is surely simple for technological society.
if their Nibiru had a period of 3,600 years around the Sun, they didn't need to be that advanced to come here. Machines must be operated by some1. So to lighten their load, & later fight their wars, they created us by mixing their DNA with the most evolutionary advanced ape surrogate mothers.
..the ancients ..were aware of some planets in our solar system. But they only had naked eye.
read his books: the astronomer priests had optical devices to observe the heavens with. In 1853, Sir David Brewster (1781-1868) presented a lens to the British Association for the Advancement of Science that had been found in excavations by Austen Henry Layard (1817-1894) at Nineveh (Kuyunjik, Iraq). It had been found in deposits dated around 600 BC.. http://www.ancient-wisdom.com/sumeria.htm#sciences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_astronomy
The Nimrud lens: Whatever its origin, as ornament, as magnifying lens or part of a telescope, the Nimrud lens is the oldest lens in the world. Looking at it evokes mystery and wonder. It can be seen in room 55 of the British Museum, in case 9 of the Lower Mesopotamian Gallery. However unusual this object seems at first, it is not unique. In fact there are several hundred reported lenses now on record from around the ancient world. http://www.ancient-wisdom.com/optics.htm
nomadski wrote: About ancient civilization. We use probabilistic reasoning. Ancient astronaut theory, never considers other Earthly explanations and their probability. Also we must use logic. If this hypothesis of aliens coming to Earth to mine gold is examined, we find it highly improbable. Since a star travelling civilization would much more efficiently mine with machines. And building machines for mining is surely simple for technological society. So I refute this idea and translations of Sumeria.
It makes no sense for a civilization to breed humans to mine gold here. Any spacefaring civilization could just colonize or use robots.
Having said this, the ancients...... were aware of some planets in our solar system
Of course, the more conspicuous 5 out of 8 (not counting Earth)--Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn.
the procession of planet Earth,
I think the right word is precession. It's not great achievement; just compare the sun's position on the zodiac at an equinox with its position at the same time of year a millennium or more earlier.
...These were Earthly achievements.
The greatest ancient achievement was Eratosthenes' determination of the circumference/size of the Earth c 202 BCE.
The greatest ancient achievement was Eratosthenes' determination of the circumference/size of the Earth c 202 BCE.
along with the Taoism's Yin-Yang & 5 elements theories on which all of its arts, philosophy, medicine, & sciences r based on. https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/08/opinion/why-quantum-physics-needs-asian-philosophy/
Well to change tack a little, while remaining on topic there is a very deep and rather intellectual book written for NASA on the potential for radically different life forms and how to search for traces of them with robotic flights to various planets and moons inside our solar system and beyond...
(Note when you click on the above link it should open a new page and appear to check a file... when it is finished there should be a green button about the centre of the screen that says "Go to PDF"... I normally right click that button and choose the "save link as..." option to save the pdf file on my desktop to start with and then move the file if I decide to keep it.)
Wow! I did not know that. If these lenses are good for basic astronomy. If they have found many, then they could do experimental archeology. Find out. Or they could be magnifying glass. It shows again that ancient man was modern in many ways.
@ starman
Precession. Thanks. That's why I think ufology should be done by scientists. Since they are best in position to determine the truth behind these things. Aliens are most likely to have visited in the past. Than a short segment of present time. Scientists are best to determine if natural historical progression could explain such advances or not.
Last edited by nomadski on Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
GarryB wrote:Well to change tack a little, while remaining on topic there is a very deep and rather intellectual book written for NASA on the potential for radically different life forms and how to search for traces of them with robotic flights to various planets and moons inside our solar system and beyond...
Radically different lifeforms may be possible but researchers generally assume Earthlike conditions are required for habitability. It will be great if spectroscopic studies indicate the atmosphere of an exoplanet is under biological control, like ours.
nomadski wrote: It shows again that ancient man was modern in many ways.
Ancient people were inherently just as bright so it's not surprising we have some examples of sophistication, like the antithykera machine. But ancient societies just weren't ready for invention. The Romans and others put people to death for that.
I saw on TV, that pyramids in Egypt could be used for stellar communication. The lower chamber under pyramid being flooded to create pressure wave against the stones of pyramid. Creating piezoelectric effect. The upper chamber being filled with zinc solution and weak hydrochloric acid producing hydrogen gas. This then being excited by electric field to produce a MASER to send signal to star! Will this work with pyramids? They said they discovered residue of acid and zinc on walls. And lower chamber showed water erosion!
Radically different lifeforms may be possible but researchers generally assume Earthlike conditions are required for habitability. It will be great if spectroscopic studies indicate the atmosphere of an exoplanet is under biological control, like ours.
But that is the point... they need to explore chemical combinations to determine if life can progress from bacterial life to more advanced forms using different chemical makeups... there is no point in scanning a totally alien planet for life if you don't know what life is or how to define it or how to identify it.
Their might be silicon based life forms we wouldn't recognise as being alive... but then we don't even know if trees have feelings or are sentient... maybe they do but experience life over such a much longer period that their perception and reactions goes unnoticed... they might think they live for a day yet for us their day is hundreds of years... they have no eyes or ears, but for goodness sake it is only recently that scientists have discovered a previously unknown organ in the skin that is networked and deal with pain receptors.
We need to decide are we looking for all life or just advanced life we can steal technology from.
The fact that there was microbial life on a rock that was on the surface of mars but was blasted by an impact off the surface to spend who knows how long in space and land in antarctica suggest life is pretty abundant but that most of it is very basic no matter what the chemical make up of it is.
There could be bacterial level life floating in the enormous atmospheres of Jupiter and Saturn and Uranus and Neptune for all we know, and perhaps it could have evolved into more complex life.... in a much denser atmosphere imagine a box jellyfish with hydrogen in its bag with tentacles hanging down thousands of metres catching algae growing in the weak sunlight trying to photosynthesise food in the upper atmosphere of Jupiter.
They don't need to write books or have music or build space stations to be interesting...
nomadski wrote:I saw on TV, that pyramids in Egypt could be used for stellar communication. The lower chamber under pyramid being flooded to create pressure wave against the stones of pyramid. Creating piezoelectric effect. The upper chamber being filled with zinc solution and weak hydrochloric acid producing hydrogen gas. This then being excited by electric field to produce a MASER to send signal to star! Will this work with pyramids? They said they discovered residue of acid and zinc on walls. And lower chamber showed water erosion!
This smacks of charlatans like von Daniken. The pyramids were the work of a basically primitive culture and ultimately stemmed from fear of death i.e. by emtombing a pharoah's possessions with him, they supposedly enabled him to enjoy the afterlife.
GarryB wrote: Their might be silicon based life forms we wouldn't recognise as being alive...
Possible but doubtful. There's no shortage of silicon here but no evidence of silicon based life. (Geologists who scrutinize rocks would probably have long noted any unusual growth pattern or movement.) Even it silicon life were possible, I understand there are disadvantages compared with carbon based life.
The fact that there was microbial life on a rock that was on the surface of mars but was blasted by an impact off the surface to spend who knows how long in space and land in antarctica
I don't think the "microbial life" in that rock stood up to scrutiny. There's still no (publicly known) proof of ET life.
.... in a much denser atmosphere imagine a box jellyfish with hydrogen in its bag with tentacles hanging down thousands of metres catching algae growing in the weak sunlight trying to photosynthesise food in the upper atmosphere of Jupiter.
At Jupiter's distance from the sun, sunlight is so weak I very much doubt it's a useful energy source. Of course Saturn, Uranus and Neptune are even worse. Any Jovian life would almost certainly derive its energy from internal planetary heat but to access it, life would have to endure tremendous pressure.
They don't need to write books or have music or build space stations to be interesting...
Of course. Nobody expected Viking 1 or 2 to encounter intelligent life. It would've been thrilling if they had just detected microorganisms. There was considerable excitement when certain results seemed to indicate such life.
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I can't imagine sending humans or our descendants to an extrasolar planet on the basis of a single faulty mission by a nanoprobe, or a few. They'd make darn sure it was habitable before making a big commitment.
kvs
