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    UFOs & Extraterrestrial Life

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:13 am

    Well the honest truth is that we really don't know.

    If an octopus is given a nice tasty crab inside a jar with a twist top lid they often work out how to get the jar open without needing to be shown how to do it... a lot of children are not that smart.

    We can say this or that species would never get to an industrialised level, but does that make it true... we are terribly arrogant bastards remember...

    A group of army ants come across a wasps nest hanging from the eves of a roof... they can't climb down onto the wasps nest to attack it because the wasps have covered the strand nest hangs from and upper surface of the nest with a poison especially designed to kill ants... so the ants form an ant bridge that reaches down from the eves and attaches to the bottom of the nest where the ants can then swarm in and take away larvae and other tasty treats for them to eat and of course kill all the wasps that remain...

    That is intelligence being used by both sides...
    starman
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    Post  starman on Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:51 am

    GarryB wrote:Well the honest truth is that we really don't know.

    If an octopus is given a nice tasty crab inside a jar with a twist top lid they often work out how to get the jar open without needing to be shown how to do it... a lot of children are not that smart.

    We can say this or that species would never get to an industrialised level, but does that make it true... we are terribly arrogant bastards remember…

    I knew octopi are intelligent so are dolphins. But what evidence is there for invention even after all the eons they've been around? An aquatic environment doesn't appear conducive to progress.

    A group of army ants come across a wasps nest hanging from the eves of a roof... they can't climb down onto the wasps nest to attack it because the wasps have covered the strand nest hangs from and upper surface of the nest with a poison especially designed to kill ants... so the ants form an ant bridge that reaches down from the eves and attaches to the bottom of the nest where the ants can then swarm in and take away larvae and other tasty treats for them to eat and of course kill all the wasps that remain...

    That is intelligence being used by both sides...

    Both sides evolved behaviors and strategies for dealing with the other. The specific strategies resulted from natural selection and are in their genes. Real intelligence is different.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:22 pm

    The Sky People
    starman
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    Post  starman on Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:26 am

    Visitors to the planet in "atlantean times"? Laughing
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:45 pm

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/25/world/exoplanet-system-nearby-scn/index.html?utm_term=15931668116619795cb7c60ec&utm_source=Five+Things+for+Friday%2C+June+26%2C+2020&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=219756_1593166811663&bt_ee=gy2kkZJAe6YnVS2g9YbfQJmnVVPNdw5Nx4QAiFnVgouPSQmPa9Yo%2B365NpwC76dw&bt_ts=1593166811663

    I hope the 3rd planet exists. The red dwarfs r the oldest & most numerous in our galaxy-therefore, ET life should be more abundant around them.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:45 am

    I knew octopi are intelligent so are dolphins. But what evidence is there for invention even after all the eons they've been around? An aquatic environment doesn't appear conducive to progress.

    They are just as new as monkeys are... I bet if you had a time machine and travelled back a few million years and observed our ancestors you would think they are thick and pig shit and there is no way they could evolve or become smart.

    There are animals that use tools... there are animals of all types that pick up stones and bash things like snails or shellfish against the stones to get the food out of the shell.

    The fact that you equate technology and invention with intelligence is amusing...

    According to some scientists several dinosaurs worked in groups or packs to hunt... even today there are plenty of animals that group together for hunting or for protection from hunters...
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    Post  starman on Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:00 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    I hope the 3rd planet exists. The red dwarfs r the oldest & most numerous in our galaxy-therefore, ET life should be more abundant around them.

    It's possible; I note the effects of a 2:3 tidal lock, at least, would be mitigated by the brief orbital periods of ecosphere planets. If red dwarf habitable zones are really habitable, advanced ETs could've arisen a billion years ago..
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    Post  starman on Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:14 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    They are just as new as monkeys are…

    The earliest known primate was Purgatorius c 66 mya. In contrast, octopi have existed since the Carboniferous c 300 mya.

    I bet if you had a time machine and travelled back a few million years and observed our ancestors you would think they are thick and pig shit and there is no way they could evolve or become smart.

    Na, Homo habilis and Homo erectus were capable of making tools (as opposed to using natural "tools").

    According to some scientists several dinosaurs worked in groups or packs to hunt…

    Sure, probably Tarbosaurus, Albertosaurus, Nanuqsaurus, Deinonychus, Allosaurus etc.


    even today there are plenty of animals that group together for hunting or for protection from hunters...

    Not indicative of much intelligence.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:59 pm

    Not indicative of much intelligence.

    Yeah... they don't have to pay tax and don't murder their own and other species in the billions... they are dumb....
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    Post  starman on Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:25 am

    GarryB wrote:Yeah... they don't have to pay tax and don't murder their own and other species in the billions... they are dumb....

    Smile Intelligence and morality aren't the same, and elimination of species by competitors or predators long predated Man. The advent of Tyrannosaurus seems to have eclipsed entire lineages, leading to the diminished diversity in Laramidia by latest Maastrichtian time. Likewise the great American interchange led to much extinction in South America. Some time ago, a study concluded crinoid diversity was adversely affected by sharks.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:35 am

    https://earthsky.org/space/europa-ocean-habitable-goldschmidt-conference

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jun/28/beyond-pluto-the-hunt-for-our-solar-system-new-ninth-planet
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:45 am

    The stupid have some excuse for morally poor choices... the intelligent not at all.

    It took intelligent people to make nuclear weapons, though not all contributed knowingly... the planet would probably be much better off if humans were less smart.
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    Post  starman on Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:37 am

    GarryB wrote:The stupid have some excuse for morally poor choices... the intelligent not at all.

    Morality doesn't appear very compatible with the real world, in which you gotta do what you must to survive and prosper. It wasn't very moral for our ancestors to outcompete and eliminate Homo sapiens neanderthalensis but it made higher cultural development possible.

    It took intelligent people to make nuclear weapons, though not all contributed knowingly... the planet would probably be much better off if humans were less smart.

    Smile OK, humanity makes mistakes. You make mistakes, you learn from them and move on. We haven't annihilated ourselves.

    Europa is interesting but does it have all of the biogenic elements necessary for life? There may be enough carbon but what about nitrogen?
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:11 am

    https://www.inverse.com/science/carbon-from-white-dwarfs

    So, wherever there r live stars, there r going to be many white dwarfs among them- carbon won't need to travel too far to land on their planets. Therefore, any planet within the habitable zone will eventually have organic molecules & life.
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    Post  starman on Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:15 am

    It's long been known that heavier elements, including biogenic ones, result from nucleosynthesis and supernovas spew these into interstellar space where they form newer generations of stars/planets with the ingredients essential for life.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:33 am

    The drive to explore Mars flagged until the confirmation less than 10 years ago that water once flowed on its surface.
    "It's the only planet where we've been able to detect past signs of life, and the more we learn about it more hope there is," said Michel Viso, an astrobiologist at CNES, France's space agency.
    "It feels like something exciting is happening, and people want to be a part of it."
    Today's Mars is basically an immense, icy desert. About 3.5 billion years ago, it lost the dense atmospheric pressure that protected it from cosmic radiation.
    Scientists are still trying to determine whether the planet was ever inhabited by metabolic life forms.
    "Four billion years ago, the conditions on the planet's surface were very close to those which we had on Earth when life first appeared," including liquid water and a dense atmosphere, said Jorge Vago, the spokesperson for the European Space Agency's ExoMars initiative.

    https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-07-10/Countdown-to-Mars-China-U-S-UAE-to-launch-missions-this-month-S13KxNjHy0/index.html
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    Post  starman on Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:09 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:[i]The drive to explore Mars flagged until the confirmation less than 10 years ago that water once flowed on its surface.

    Mariner 9 found ample evidence of flowing water almost half a century ago. Mars exploration wouldn't have "flagged" had the Mars Observer craft not been lost in 1993.
    It's always good to see space exploration missions but there should be less emphasis on dinky Mars and more on exoplanets which may hold more promise like Trappist e.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:01 pm

    https://www.mysterywire.com/ufo/lawmakers-ask-for-unclassified-uap-task-force-report-in-new-intelligence-bill/

    I wonder, what's is there so important to hide in the classified version, which obviously exists?
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    Post  starman on Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:37 pm

    Lol, nothing will come of this. Those who think real disclosure is just around the corner are in for a disappointment; I should say yet another one. History is replete with so called government investigation. To old timers, blue book is the best known example. It's all just a farce. A newly published work explains what's really going on: https://www.amazon.com/Alien-Grand-Design-Tim-Donovan/dp/1952269865
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:30 pm

    If many other governments make more unbiased disclosures, as they had before, & the US gov. doesn't, who is going to trust them? It's only going to feed conspiracy theories, esp. since a new cold war just started with Russia & China.
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    Post  starman on Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:55 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:If many other governments make more unbiased disclosures,

    Smile Unfortunately their "disclosures" don't amount to much, since the our government is probably the only one in possession of incontrovertible proof.

    as they had before, & the US gov. doesn't, who is going to trust them? It's only going to feed conspiracy theories, esp. since a new cold war just started with Russia & China.

    Few knowledgeable people ever trusted the US government. There have been "conspiracy theories" for decades. The government has undoubtedly concealed and confiscated evidence, and while a lot of information has seemed to leak out, it's really misinformation, as the aforementioned book explains.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:33 pm

    Unfortunately their "disclosures" don't amount to much, since the our government is probably the only one in possession of incontrovertible proof.
    at least a few others have as good, if not better proof. Besides, ancient myths, Sumerian texts, & the Bible r full of what now could be considered as "close encounters" of all kinds. If they could inspire religions (& artifacts) that now don't need any more proof, then it's a pretty strong anthropological evidence!
    Few knowledgeable people ever trusted the US government.
    most of the public isn't knowledgeable & therefore is subject to propaganda & manipulation.
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    Post  starman on Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:02 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    at least a few others have as good, if not better proof.

    I very much doubt that. The "Russian Roswell" was a hoax.

    Besides, ancient myths, Sumerian texts, & the Bible r full of what now could be considered as "close encounters" of all kinds. If they could inspire religions (& artifacts) that now don't need any more proof, then it's a pretty strong anthropological evidence!

    Some writers read way too much into ancient texts, and scholars long ago concluded much of what they say is pure invention.

    most of the public isn't knowledgeable & therefore is subject to propaganda & manipulation.

    Sure but experts can cast a lot of doubt on the government.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:47 am

    I very much doubt that. The "Russian Roswell" was a hoax.
    Radar records & photos/films from USSR & L. America militaries r in the same league as the latest USN revelation.
    Some writers read way too much into ancient texts, and scholars long ago concluded much of what they say is pure invention.
    the so-called scholars been proven wrong many times & often change their theories at a drop of a hat.
    Sure but experts can cast a lot of doubt on the government.
    they c/would be ridiculed & ostracized as many before them.
    A dogmatic believer can always blame a defective glass in the telescope when shown craters on the Moon or wrong dating methods when presented with ancient artifacts/fossils- so to many, it doesn't matter much what scientists & experts say. The Shroud of Turin is a case in point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating_of_the_Shroud_of_Turin

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fringe_theories_about_the_Shroud_of_Turin
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:25 am

    Some writers read way too much into ancient texts, and scholars long ago concluded much of what they say is pure invention.

    More importantly written information from ancient times is the sort of stuff the rich and powerful had control of, while the masses would rely on word of mouth and spoken histories to keep their culture alive. The written words change with use... we know that to be true of most languages, but writing written in stone is literally written in stone and set.

    Even 50 years after information was written on a wall or a piece of stone it might be considered myth and legend... for all we know it might have been a way of recording stories for children or for entertainment for adults... people of this century are not the first to make up stories and use their imagination... in fact look at movies and these days many are just remakes because there is no imagination left in some places...


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