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    Project 945: Sierra class

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:21 pm

    Mir wrote:Yes those chairs are amazing!
    Gorby and Yeltsi caused some terrific damage - esp to the navy! angry
    Thankfully those 945's did manage to survive - they are still real game changers.

    The 705 time is long gone.
    Those were the chasers.
    Not sure if you recall the operational principle of it, so let me remind you.
    The project was a follow on of the Polaris program.
    First of all, we are facing a mass falsification of common sources, citing it had about 4500km range.
    It is utter bullshit.
    Polaris when accepted for service, had a range of not more than 2300km.
    The Lira program was settled to make an interceptor. A submarine capable to hunt down the incoming SSBNs, while those were outside the engagement envelope.
    Once spotted/tracked by the other recon means, it was supposed to jump out of the patrol zone, chase/intercept it, before it can unleash the nuclear strike.
    A combination of sustained 40+ knots speed with WA-111, with a nuclear warhead, made it possible to intercept the SLBM carriers well before they can ignite the missiles.
    But as the Polaris program was in development either, the new missile versions gained the range, almost doubling it at the end.
    It was already impossible to intercept it, before it can strike the Leningrad - a Moscow, perhaps.
    So the whole concept turned obsolete, just the same way that MiG-25 concept of intercepting B-52, and burning through ECMs with its extremely powerful radar was obsolete when the low altitude tactics was implemented.
    That is why the whole series was retired so fast, the tactical useless combined with the fact that those were so heavy in new technology, that turned to be problematic in handle. A metal cooled reactor was not a gain either ...
    Too complicated, too specialized.
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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:35 pm

    Isos wrote:Yasen is clearly the best sub possible with the weapons it has. It has a perfectly balanced size, weapons carried, strike stand off range, stealth and crew.


    With the weapon they have on hand, you can float a wooden barge and solve the issue either ...
    You know what I find particularly funny from the perspective?
    The very first signals, that they are creating something principal, are 20 years old.
    It used to ba an ex chief of WWS, who said that they work on a whole concept of common strike assets, that will share the technology/design etc., and they will be able to launch it from any carrier they want.
    HOW FUNNY it was back there!
    A whole world of military-related talking heads has been so entertained about that!
    Ha ha ha ha ... Russkies will do something ...
    Ha ha ha ha ... We have just won a war.
    Ha ha ha ha ... We are so fuckin' brilliant, powerful, and when we fart - a lavender scent is emitted, obligatory!
    ... and the years passed, and it turned out that those bloody Russkies meaned it, and didn't joked.
    A systematic & principal fuckup.

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Thu Dec 23, 2021 8:55 am

    ALAMO wrote:
    Mir wrote:Yes those chairs are amazing!
    Gorby and Yeltsi caused some terrific damage - esp to the navy! angry
    Thankfully those 945's did manage to survive - they are still real game changers.

    The 705 time is long gone.
    Those were the chasers.
    Not sure if you recall the operational principle of it, so let me remind you.
    The project was a follow on of the Polaris program.
    First of all, we are facing a mass falsification of common sources, citing it had about 4500km range.
    It is utter bullshit.
    Polaris when accepted for service, had a range of not more than 2300km.
    The Lira program was settled to make an interceptor. A submarine capable to hunt down the incoming SSBNs, while those were outside the engagement envelope.
    Once spotted/tracked by the other recon means, it was supposed to jump out of the patrol zone, chase/intercept it, before it can unleash the nuclear strike.
    A combination of sustained 40+ knots speed with WA-111, with a nuclear warhead, made it possible to intercept the SLBM carriers well before they can ignite the missiles.
    But as the Polaris program was in development either, the new missile versions gained the range, almost doubling it at the end.
    It was already impossible to intercept it, before it can strike the Leningrad - a Moscow, perhaps.
    So the whole concept turned obsolete, just the same way that MiG-25 concept of intercepting B-52, and burning through ECMs with its extremely powerful radar was obsolete when the low altitude tactics was implemented.  
    That is why the whole series was retired so fast, the tactical useless combined with the fact that those were so heavy in new technology, that turned to be problematic in handle. A metal cooled reactor was not a gain either ...
    Too complicated, too specialized.

    Yes I've mentioned somewhere that the 705's were used as interceptors. Not only because they were fast but their reactor design was of such a nature that it had to be "on" all the time otherwise the reactor core would solidify. That is actually the reason why the first boat K-64 was retired as early as 1978 (due to reactor problems) but the 6 remaining boats was only retired in the 90's.

    The 705's had special facilities built in the base to "nurse" the reactors but these broke down regularly so they decided to just keep the reactors running without using the troublesome facilities. By keeping the reactors running they were always ready to go - much like an interceptor in a HAS kept on 24/7 alert.

    SLBM technology was advancing very rapidly during the 70's and 80's for both sides - which meant that the 705's had to adapt to other roles. Being small and deep diving made them very useful but they were expensive to run. The last boat was retired as late as 1996.

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    Post  GarryB Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:52 am

    Yes, it is funny that you mention I think that the west thinks the Alphas were the fastest but it was actually the Papas that were the fastest Soviet subs... but they were all very interesting in their own right...

    I remember HATO commanders saying they detected Alphas coming towards their exercises from quite a distance but the depths they were running at and the speeds they were moving there wasn't anything they could do about them except nuclear depth charges...
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    Post  Mir Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:42 pm

    The Soviets made quite an effort to disguise their "secret subs" from spy satellites when launched. Here is an interesting one of a pr.705 being disguised as a Foxtrot I presume?

    Project 945: Sierra class - Page 5 Alfa-d10

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    Post  Hole Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:47 pm

    GarryB wrote:Yes, it is funny that you mention I think that the west thinks the Alphas were the fastest but it was actually the Papas that were the fastest Soviet subs... but they were all very interesting in their own right...

    I remember HATO commanders saying they detected Alphas coming towards their exercises from quite a distance but the depths they were running at and the speeds they were moving there wasn't anything they could do about them except nuclear depth charges...

    There was only one Papa.

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    Post  Mir Thu Dec 23, 2021 8:28 pm

    I can see now that the above 705 was probably disguised as a Hotel class boat.

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:40 pm

    Mir wrote:I can see now that the above 705 was probably disguised as a Hotel class boat.

    Hotel or Julliet, with the technology back there both would not be possible to distinguish.

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    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:52 am

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    Post  walle83 Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:18 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    The Daniil Moskovsky seems to be active still.
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    Post  limb Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:49 am

    Can the sierra's carry torpedo tube launched kalibr anti-ship variant missiles? Do torp tubes need a major redesign to lanch such missiles? Why could the victors launch vodopad and viyuga anti-sub missiles, but not anti-ship missiles? I kind of wish russians stuck to 650mm tubes. They were guaranteed carrier killers and could accomodate larger anti-ship missiles.  Also, since russian subs other than the yasen are louder than the seawolf and virginia, 650mm torpedos would allow for a greater standoff range against carrier groups and US subs, and more area for US anti-sub aircraft to scan.
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    Post  Isos Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:57 am

    For Kalibr use they need to put the computers in the sub.

    They didn't have any anti ship missile for torpedo tube back then for the victor.

    650mm takes place and 533mm got very good with a long range and high speed.
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    Post  Mir Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:15 am

    limb wrote:Can the sierra's carry torpedo tube launched kalibr anti-ship variant missiles? Do torp tubes need a major redesign to lanch such missiles? Why could the victors launch vodopad and viyuga anti-sub missiles, but not anti-ship missiles? I kind of wish russians stuck to 650mm tubes. They were guaranteed carrier killers and could accomodate larger anti-ship missiles.  Also, since russian subs other than the yasen are louder than the seawolf and virginia, 650mm torpedos would allow for a greater standoff range against carrier groups and US subs, and more area for US anti-sub aircraft to scan.

    The Sierra's together with the VictorIII's and Akula's were able to launch the S-10 Granat nuclear tipped SLCM. There are rumours that they retrofitted these missiles with conventional warheads but they are basically land attack missiles. As Isos suggested it could be a fairly simple matter to just upgrade the computer hardware/software in these boats for it to launch Kalibr missiles from the torpedo tubes and any upgrades to the Sierra's will likely incorporate Kalibr missiles. Might even be a done deal already?
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    Post  ALAMO Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:47 am

    Mir wrote:
    limb wrote:Can the sierra's carry torpedo tube launched kalibr anti-ship variant missiles? Do torp tubes need a major redesign to lanch such missiles? Why could the victors launch vodopad and viyuga anti-sub missiles, but not anti-ship missiles? I kind of wish russians stuck to 650mm tubes. They were guaranteed carrier killers and could accomodate larger anti-ship missiles.  Also, since russian subs other than the yasen are louder than the seawolf and virginia, 650mm torpedos would allow for a greater standoff range against carrier groups and US subs, and more area for US anti-sub aircraft to scan.

    The Sierra's together with the VictorIII's and Akula's were able to launch the S-10 Granat nuclear tipped SLCM. There are rumours that they retrofitted these missiles with conventional warheads but they are basically land attack missiles. As Isos suggested it could be a fairly simple matter to just upgrade the computer hardware/software in these boats for it to launch Kalibr missiles from the torpedo tubes and any upgrades to the Sierra's will likely incorporate Kalibr missiles. Might even be a done deal already?

    Retrofitting S-10 to conventional missiles would be second to useless, as it's guidance system was granting a CEP of around 150m.
    Plus the missiles themselves are 40 y/o and made with the Soviet Union industrial base you would have to restore to keep them running.
    But the point is, that all of them already have the subsystems to carry missile strikes. At least Moskovsky is reported to be converted for Calibrs already.
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    Post  Mir Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:22 am

    ALAMO wrote:
    Retrofitting S-10 to conventional missiles would be second to useless, as it's guidance system was granting a CEP of around 150m.
    Plus the missiles themselves are 40 y/o and made with the Soviet Union industrial base you would have to restore to keep them running.
    But the point is, that all of them already have the subsystems to carry missile strikes. At least Moskovsky is reported to be converted for Calibrs already.

    Well I did say it was a rumour Laughing
    But if its true I would suspect they would have taken the time to upgrade the guidance system as well.
    These missiles are somewhat similar to the Kh-55 which perhaps could allow them to use some components in any upgrades/maintenance?
    The West also considers the Iskander-K as a development from the RK-55 GLCM which is identical to the S-10 SLCM - so perhaps they reworked the S-10's on the same basis?
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    Post  ALAMO Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:11 pm

    Ch-55 is just the same story.
    It is a very old missile, and I really doubt if they are even interested in reestablishing the production potential of it. It is possible they keep it operational for a while thanks to cannibalization, but make a run to substitute the parts produced in let's say Kirgizya? Naaah.
    They took some 750 missiles out of Ukraine back there, so I suppose they were on duty till the Ch-555 appeared, and 101/102 followed. That is 20 years ago already. Time is not standing still Laughing

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    Post  Mir Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:35 pm

    ALAMO wrote:Ch-55 is just the same story.
    It is a very old missile, and I really doubt if they are even interested in reestablishing the production potential of it. It is possible they keep it operational for a while thanks to cannibalization, but make a run to substitute the parts produced in let's say Kirgizya? Naaah.
    They took some 750 missiles out of Ukraine back there, so I suppose they were on duty till the Ch-555 appeared, and 101/102 followed. That is 20 years ago already. Time is not standing still Laughing

    Old perhaps - but still very useful. It is quite capable of opening a door in Poland from 2500kms away! Laughing Laughing Laughing
    Never said anything about re-establishing production - but I did mention upgrades and maintenance - which is quite something else! Wink
    Also don't forget the Iskander-K that is reportedly based on the same old Soviet tech. Although there are far more serious stuff on it's way as a replacement it is still regarded as a major threat by NATO.
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    Post  Arrow Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:19 pm

    Russia now has a lot of Kalibr missiles plus Ch 101 and Ch 102. These missiles are probably the best in their class.  Range over 5000 km, very good CEP, stealth technique used.  The new Kalibr M with a range of 4500 km is under development.  Alamo is right there is no point in investing in the old Ch 55. The resources are over.  There has been a generational shift in cruise missiles.  Now Russia is a leader in the development of subsonic maneuvering missiles.  They have several different types with the best parameters in the world.  In the past, the USA was a leader in the development of this type of weapon.Now almost every smallest ship can carry a Kalibr.  Strategic aviation has its missiles, tactical aviation is waiting for its winged missile. Very Happy
    It is better to allocate funds to new generation missiles than the modernization of the old Ch 55, most of which would have to be changed anyway. The Iskander K is a new caliber-based missile.
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    Post  Mir Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:45 pm

    Perhaps you should read my post-113 to get a better understanding dunno
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:47 am

    Russia takes the time and effort to upgrade most of its inservice systems... even old Konkurs missiles have their IR flares for tracking by its guidance system replaced with IR LEDs during servicing to improve performance.

    Old anti ship missiles like Granit over the years were upgraded with new guidance systems that allowed land attack capacity even after production ended, so I would think over time upgrades to even very old missiles were applied to improve them and keep them relevant.

    The old Granat missiles would likely have been withdrawn when the Russians agreed to withdraw most tactical nuclear weapons from their ships including nuclear armed SAMs for the purpose of making the world safer.

    The air launched equivalent of the Granat was re-purposed to the Kh-555 AFAIK for conventional land attack roles but many just had conventional warheads fitted or just the nuclear warheads removed and were used as cruise missile simulators for air defence exercises and tests.

    Would expect most missiles from the 1980s are no longer deployed or are kept for tests or exercises or are being used in Syria... once the new stuff is tested it makes sense to use up old stocks of old weapons to hit targets.

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