Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

iraqidabab wrote:http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/510/

R33-E ( export version )

120KM range

Mig 31 it hunt cruise missle

Mach 2 energy prob 160-180 km

sheytanelkebir wrote:

flamming_python wrote:Iraq bas been barely holding off the ISIS assault; acquiring MiG-31s and MiG-35s should NOT be on the list of priorities.
Besides which Iraq will have nothing to pin down as collatoral for such expensive equipment - if ISIS ends up capturing some Iraq's oilfields and Kurdistan splits off with the rest of them.
Another 2 years of the sort of warfare that Iraq is facing now - and it end up like Syria; with an exhausted populace and an improvised army that's barely holding together and an economy that's only functioning on the generosity of Iran.
The very first order of things should be to expell the ISIS terrorists from Iraqi land.
Everything else comes later.

85% of iraqi oil and associated export facilities are in the deep south of iraq and over 550km from the nearest isis. Isis has been singularly incapable of capturing even a Shia majority village let alone get so deep into southern iraq. All areas they can capture are basically pro isis populace.

Exactly, I don't see any problem in that area, though it really looks like Syria will need Iraqi help soon.
FP's broader point, that e.g. MiG-31s are un-needed now is correct, IMHO. Of course, neither MiG-31 or -35 will be delivered quickly,
but some sort of order for MiG-35 seems more reasonable, just because supersonic quick reaction A2G strikes are definitely useful over territory as large as Iraq (+ Syria, potentially Jordan, etc).
Near term, best to get upgraded Su-25 ASAP, possibly also armed Yak-130 which can be dual-purposed as trainers when higher end air superiority platforms are eventually inducted.
But who knows, the Houthis may just wipe out Saud before Iraq needs to think about it.

What Iraq REALLY needs is aircrafts with strong A2G capabilities without breaking the piggy bank. Unfortunately, Su-25's production was in Georgia and no new ones have come out, and MiG-27's are all but retired. If Russia still has plenty of MiG-27's still in reserves(as long as they were not scrapped) they could give it some basic upgrades, maintenance and sell it at a low price to Iraq. Outside of that, only old Su-25's and Yak-130M2's maybe of best interest for Iraq.

Interesting News. I can't see why the Iraqi air force would need an interceptor like the MiG-31. It's primary role being to shot down strategic bombers and cruise missiles which no one in the region has. On top of that Iraq really isn't that big of country to warrant the range it offers. Also without AWACs and tanker support I don't think it would live up to its full potential. If they want an aircraft to counter the F-15's of it neighbours the Flanker would be a better option being cheaper to run and offering better all around capacity in AA and AG. They only reason I can see them looking at the MiG-31 was the Iraq air force positive history with the MiG-25.

Iraq has already chose the KAI T-50 as their advance trainer so no point in doubling up with the Yak-130.

MiG-35 is also a good choice once it becomes operational.

Unfortunately, Su-25's production was in Georgia and no new ones have come out,

The two seat version of the Su-25 is made in Russia... and it is the most advanced models of the Su-25... Su-25T and Su-25TM that are based on the two seat model...

Saudi apes are shiping much of their terrorist support by air and MiG-31 could shoot down their transports if sauidies dont stop once Iraq establishes control of their air space. Pancir-S1 could prove its worth by defending airfields or blocking routes of saidi shipments too.

Air superiority is needed because sooner rather than later the Saudis will try their luck in bombing iraq... And the f16iq with its antedelvian sparrows won't be offering much defence against that. The mig31 has acceleration and climb rate that allows a squadron flying out of kut to cover all of iraq rapidly and effectively intercept intruders before they can strike Baghdad. That's what the mig25 did. And in future only the mig31 would fulfill that role effectively. But let's wait and see. I wonder if any mig31e were prepared for Syria that would be ready for delivery... I note that in the meeting with iraqi pm in Moscow he met with nearly two dozen iraqi trainee pilots in Russia! Sure some will be for mil types... But there's certainly room for fighter types to be there too. Mig31 would certainly ruffle feathers in the region. Hell I am sure that bae or Lockheed martin and Boeing would be happy to part fund iraqi mig31 purchases. If you know what I mean.

Say Iraq goes for MIG-35's and signs for a contract within the coming months, what year would first deliveries start ?

mig-35 having good ground attack capability is a lot more realistic than MIG-31 which would be almost useless in the war against ISIS.

iraqidabab wrote:Say Iraq goes for MIG-35's and signs for a contract within the coming months, what year would first deliveries start ?

I don't think that is possible till RamadI and Mosul, are freed . Plus retaking of Iraqi - Syria border.

It says that the PM requested Russian help to restore the Iraqi military factories to cover the basic needs of the army and limiting the dependence on US in covering the supply of ammo, small arms and other basic equipment.

iraqidabab wrote:It says that the PM requested Russian help to restore the Iraqi military factories to cover the basic needs of the army and limiting the dependence on US in covering the supply of ammo, small arms and other basic equipment.

If true, a massive business deal right here. A factory for producing AK-103s or AK-12 (or 200 series), ammunitions, shells, maybe other things like artillery and such, guided munitions, etc, all license produced from Russia, would guarantee money flow and supply. And who knows, they can make cross border deals and fly transport planes from Iraq to Syria to assist Assad.

like the Iraqi paper said. the deal in 2015 will consist of 50% of Russia's arms exports (for this year anyway). Of course, Its early days and Russia may well sell even more stuff to other customers in the meantime... all that would mean is that Russian arms exports for 2015 may well shoot well beyond $20Bn... and order backlog would burst above $50Bn. Question is can russia ramp up production quickly enough to meet all this new demand that's flowing in. I fear there may be capacity issues arising this year causing delays...

sheytanelkebir wrote:like the Iraqi paper said. the deal in 2015 will consist of 50% of Russia's arms exports (for this year anyway). Of course, Its early days and Russia may well sell even more stuff to other customers in the meantime... all that would mean is that Russian arms exports for 2015 may well shoot well beyond $20Bn... and order backlog would burst above $50Bn. Question is can russia ramp up production quickly enough to meet all this new demand that's flowing in. I fear there may be capacity issues arising this year causing delays...

They could always provide an assembly plant or even manufacturing for specific things. If Russia helps build a manufacturing plant for small arms, that is great. If they open up a tank assembly plant, even better. I know at one point Iraq had a tank manufacturing or assembly plant to make the babylon tank. But what ever happend to that?

This
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_of_Babylon_%28tank%29

There was a deal for licensed MI-28 production, but this project stopped due to the 1991 war and sanctions.
In the autumn of 1990 Iraq ordered the type and signed on agreement with Russia on joint production of the MI-28L
--

Local AK-103 / AK-12 production makes more sense now as reports say Iraq was looking at Ratnik modernisation program.

CEO of TsNIITochMash, a major arms manufacturer sated that Iraq, Pakistan and Kuwait are among the countries that have shown an interest in Russia's next-generation Ratnik (Warrior) military equipment system. Read more: http://sputniknews.com/business/20150223/1018634164.html#ixzz3bBFof04A

Iraq refused the Abrams in favor of the T-72
On unloading at the port of Um-Qasr seen a ship with a cargo of T-72 tanks from Russia. Because of the dense capping, to say exactly what the modification is supplied to the Iraqi army is difficult, but most likely it is pre tanks T-72B.






Apparently, the Iraqis are "bored" with the American "super-duper-tanks" and don't want them - it's expensive and not effective...

http://gurkhan.blogspot.de/2015/05/72_27.html

Russia should definately help restore the tank-production plant Iraq had, and help move Iraq towards self-sufficiency in T-72s; using knock-down kits but with localization whenever possible.
BMPT-72 kits can also be imported from Russia for assembly in Iraq.
Perhaps even a BTR-T style-vehicle based on the T-72 chassis can be developed for Iraqi requirements; or for them to convert T-72 chassis to APCs with their own ingenuity.

In this way; the tank plant can provide the Iraqis not only with MBTs, but also tank-support vehicles and heavy APCs, IFVs; all based on the same chassis.

Even Russia's supply of T-72s/T-62s/T-64s/T-55s/T-54s/T-80s is not endless.
And it's factories already have plenty of their own orders.

What with the Ukrainian front, the Syrian front, the Iraqi front as well as the inevitable Afghan front soon and possibly even the Macedonian-Balkan front on the horizon - Russia's tank and armoured vehicle pool is only going to shrink.

Iraq needs proper military schools teaching tank warfare. Americans taught the Iraqi tank crews how to operate the Abrams, didn't teach them about tank warfare. The result is the tank commander deployed the tank in wrong area's giving ISIS perfect place for an ambush and kept the tank an easy target by not having infantry around. It's more about training for the Iraqi crews.

flamming_python wrote:Russia should definately help restore the tank-production plant Iraq had, and help move Iraq towards self-sufficiency in T-72s; using knock-down kits but with localization whenever possible.
BMPT-72 kits can also be imported from Russia for assembly in Iraq.
Perhaps even a BTR-T style-vehicle based on the T-72 chassis can be developed for Iraqi requirements; or for them to convert T-72 chassis to APCs with their own ingenuity.

In this way; the tank plant can provide the Iraqis not only with MBTs, but also tank-support vehicles and heavy APCs, IFVs; all based on the same chassis.

Even Russia's supply of T-72s/T-62s/T-64s/T-55s/T-54s/T-80s is not endless.
And it's factories already have plenty of their own orders.

What with the Ukrainian front, the Syrian front, the Iraqi front as well as the inevitable Afghan front soon and possibly even the Macedonian-Balkan front on the horizon - Russia's tank and armoured vehicle pool is only going to shrink.

I completely agree. Either Russia will have to build an additional plant of their own (or use the old Omsk plant that made T-80 units) to start building more tanks (which is good for local jobs for sure and business). But I think that for Iraq's case, they should seriously get help from Russia to build a tank plant or restore their old one. They could obtain a license to produce T-72B's or even T-90's with modern equipment. They could choose which parts they can obtain as well, be it Russian, US or French or whatever to compliment the tanks. Provide also a proper training ground like Iraqidabob stated, where they can train, test and what not of the tanks they make and for new recruits.

There are plenty of opportunities and having such capabilities will give Iraq a huge benefit. Already Russia gives India, Algeria and I believe Azerbaijan the ability to assemble the T-90's, with possibility of their own production capabilities. So I think in both interests for business and Iraq's security, they should give them similar rights and even invest in the facility.

BREM-1's and some TOS were also shipped along with the T-72(B?)'s.

sepheronx wrote:

flamming_python wrote:Russia should definately help restore the tank-production plant Iraq had, and help move Iraq towards self-sufficiency in T-72s; using knock-down kits but with localization whenever possible.
BMPT-72 kits can also be imported from Russia for assembly in Iraq.
Perhaps even a BTR-T style-vehicle based on the T-72 chassis can be developed for Iraqi requirements; or for them to convert T-72 chassis to APCs with their own ingenuity.

In this way; the tank plant can provide the Iraqis not only with MBTs, but also tank-support vehicles and heavy APCs, IFVs; all based on the same chassis.

Even Russia's supply of T-72s/T-62s/T-64s/T-55s/T-54s/T-80s is not endless.
And it's factories already have plenty of their own orders.

What with the Ukrainian front, the Syrian front, the Iraqi front as well as the inevitable Afghan front soon and possibly even the Macedonian-Balkan front on the horizon - Russia's tank and armoured vehicle pool is only going to shrink.

I completely agree.  Either Russia will have to build an additional plant of their own (or use the old Omsk plant that made T-80 units) to start building more tanks (which is good for local jobs for sure and business).  But I think that for Iraq's case, they should seriously get help from Russia to build a tank plant or restore their old one.  They could obtain a license to produce T-72B's or even T-90's with modern equipment.  They could choose which parts they can obtain as well, be it Russian, US or French or whatever to compliment the tanks.  Provide also a proper training ground like Iraqidabob stated, where they can train, test and what not of the tanks they make and for new recruits.

There are plenty of opportunities and having such capabilities will give Iraq a huge benefit.  Already Russia gives India, Algeria and I believe Azerbaijan the ability to assemble the T-90's, with possibility of their own production capabilities.  So I think in both interests for business and Iraq's security, they should give them similar rights and even invest in the facility.

Could be a good opportunity for Russian-Iranian co-operation here too; with Iran providing the parts that Iraq cannot, and helping to restore related Iraqi industries.

In this way it's possible to achieve largely indigenized T-72 production for Iraq and perhaps Iran too, if there is capacity to spare; with the base materials and steel, parts of the chassis - Iraqi, the rest mostly from Iran's defence industries, and the specialized components and high-tech stuff from Russia or India.

Also, on the base of the chassis it will be possible to produce all sorts of vehicles; not just tanks.

iraqidabab wrote:Iraq needs proper military schools teaching tank warfare. Americans taught the Iraqi tank crews how to operate the Abrams, didn't teach them about tank warfare. The result is the tank commander deployed the tank in wrong area's giving ISIS perfect place for an ambush and kept the tank an easy target by not having infantry around. It's more about training for the Iraqi crews.

It is not just the training, when you lack anykind of necessary technology and only have crappy Canister rounds you are going to be ineffective regardless of the tactics. Tactics are building on weaponary, if you lack certain capability and effective range you end up having a very close combat. Canister rounds are just 500m maximum and useless not to mention in all ranges. T-72's fair better if they would buy some assistance of proper tactics from syria, iran, russia or china they would have far easier way to deal with israeli and US terrorists. You can't expect from any kind of help from US since that is their terrorist group.

And no T-90 fr Iraq since ISIS is a western terrorist organisation with western weapon suppliers the US will pay a big fee and provide necessary weapons to destroy T-90 for propaganda purposes just like they did with Taliban,Stingers,Srelas, Tows and Milans against Tanks and Hinds. when Iraq sorts out this western terrorists it can have T-90, it wouldnt make urban warfare better regardless of T-90S or T-72B3/BA/B or whatever version.

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding here.

Iraqis need a large batch of second hand tanks and artillery for the current emergency. They won't spend money to produce old obsolete tankS. They will buy them for their current emergency needs though.

As for the future. Iraq has placed request for 175 more Abrams and also t90 tanks. But that is really for future use not for the current war.

Similarly the news about mig31 and mig35 are about the future and not current needs. Current needs the Iraqis are requesting second hand mi24 helicopters.... Seeking immediate deliver. So a similar story to land forces. A mix of second hand immediate delivery items and high end items for future delivery.

This says Iraq buying RPG-29 and RPG-32 to counter the truck suicide bombs

http://burathanews.com/news/267838.html

iraqidabab wrote:This says Iraq buying RPG-29 and RPG-32 to counter the truck suicide bombs

http://burathanews.com/news/267838.html

Wouldn't simple RPG-7's be capable of taking out the suicide trucks?

sepheronx wrote:

iraqidabab wrote:This says Iraq buying RPG-29 and RPG-32 to counter the truck suicide bombs

http://burathanews.com/news/267838.html

Wouldn't simple RPG-7's be capable of taking out the suicide trucks?

Of course just acquire HE-Frag ammunition which exists in a shitload amount.