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    VKS trainer aircrafts status and needs

    franco
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    Post  franco on Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:58 am

    Yak-152 is to become the primary trainer and then the Yak-130 for advanced combat.
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    Post  George1 on Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:34 am

    franco wrote:Yak-152 is to become the primary trainer and then the Yak-130 for advanced combat.

    it is required a jet aircraft for basic and advanced training. Yak-152 isnt a jet..Yak-130 it is but from the article the conclusion is that can be used only as advanced trainer
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:31 am

    The complications of modern 4++ and 5 generation aircrafts has caused the need for an intermediate step between an initial properllerpropeller trainer (as the yak152in Russia or the SF260 in Italy) and an advanced trainer as the yak-130 (or the M346, coming from a common development with the Yak130). In Italy they introduced the single engine turbo fan M345, probably  Russia would need something similar.

    I thought they would go for the SR-10, but there are no news about that aircrafts.


    Last edited by Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
    franco
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    Post  franco on Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:52 pm

    George1 wrote:
    franco wrote:Yak-152 is to become the primary trainer and then the Yak-130 for advanced combat.

    it is required a jet aircraft for basic and advanced training. Yak-152 isnt a jet..Yak-130 it is but from the article the conclusion is that can be used only as advanced trainer

    The Yak-152 will be the basic trainer and the Yak-130 will be the advanced trainer for those who are selected as combat jet pilots.

    Present set-up for Pilot training in Russia is:

    - Krasnodar (fixed wing) and Syrzan (helicopters) Flight schools (Institutes)
    - Krasnodar cadets receive basic flight training at Kotelnikovo, Tihoretsk, Maikop or Michurinsk airbases (appears to be closing down) using L-39C's
    - Krasnodar has 2 sub-branches for advanced training at Armair (Combat) and Balashov (Transport)
    - Armair cadets receive advanced flight training at Armair or Borisoglebsk using Yak-130's
    - Balashov cadets receive twin prop basic training at Rtishchevo using L-410's and advanced training at Balashov using An-26's. There are reports the L-410's at Rtishchevo will be replaced with Russian built Diamond DA42's.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:32 pm

    Franco, that is clear. However the yak-130 is a relatively expensive machine, and anyway, if used also as first jet for the pilots, they need much more than the existing ones.

    Since the yak-130 ia a twin jet that can also be used to train the pilots to use more complicated weapon systems and sensors (and it is more complicated than the L-39), it could be for some pilot a huge step, when compared to the basic trainer.

    For this reason there has been the suggestion to introduce  an intermediate step between the basic trainer (yak-152) and the advanced trainer (yak-130).

    This could ease the transition for the pilot, and also allow the airforce to save some money, as this intermediate trainer will have a lower operating cost when compared to the yak-130.

    They are going soon also to exhaust the old L-39 trainers, and not all of them will be replaced by expensive yak-130.

    Basically they need an equivalent of the M-345. I believed this role would be taken by the SR-10, but there is no announcement about the use of this promising single jet trainer. Any other possibility?
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    Post  franco on Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:10 pm

    I believe people underestimate how advanced the Yak-152 is. Perhaps primary trainer is a more accurate term then a basic trainer (like the old Yak-52 which is not even used by the Air Force anymore, just DSOOF flight clubs).
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:12 am

    Perhaps they need a much simplified and cheaper model of Yak-130 that could be used in large numbers and could also be sold to operational air bases as an air base hack aircraft that can be used for cheap flight hours.

    Maybe a single engined Yak-130 with simplified design and systems to make it both simpler and cheaper to operate so it can be made in large numbers and used widely... the whole idea was originally to have a family of Yak designs based on it, but I suspect cost has limited its appeal... put some wing pylons on it and enable it to carry a reasonable payload of weapons and sell it as a light strike aircraft too... low costs being key...
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    Post  marcellogo on Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:01 am

    GarryB wrote:Perhaps they need a much simplified and cheaper model of Yak-130 that could be used in large numbers and could also be sold to operational air bases as an air base hack aircraft that can be used for cheap flight hours.

    Maybe a single engined Yak-130 with simplified design and systems to make it both simpler and cheaper to operate so it can be made in large numbers and used widely... the whole idea was originally to have a family of Yak designs based on it, but I suspect cost has limited its appeal... put some wing pylons on it and enable it to carry a reasonable payload of weapons and sell it as a light strike aircraft too... low costs being key...

    An advanced version of the L-39 (if they still have licence production) would be the solution IMHO.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:20 am

    Ad advanced version of the L39 (and with western component) is already in development in Czech republic, but it will be more like an alternative to the yak-130 than an intermediate step. Furthermore also the original L39 were never produced in Russia. It would be a foreign aircraft for which they would need to buy licences to produce it. It is a different issue than the let-410 and let-610 small passwnger and transport aircrafts. While they were a Czech design, the company developing and producing them is now fully owned by Russian investors (the IP of the aircrafts is now Russian) and the planes are being built in Russia.

    If, hypothetically, they had to go with a copy of a foreign design for the intermediate trainer role, they would better copy the M345, as it is doing exactly that for the Italian air force (being a preparatory step before the M346
    (the M346 is the Italian version of the Yak-130 (they started as a common design in the 1990s but then yak and aermacchi/alenia dissolved the partnership in the 2000 and finished developing the 2 aircrafts independently from each other).
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:55 am

    An advanced version of the L-39 (if they still have licence production) would be the solution IMHO.

    Nah, it is a Czech design, the whole point of the Yak-130 is to create a Russian jet trainer to replace foreign types.

    Reintroducing the L-39 would be a step backwards in that regard.

    If, hypothetically, they had to go with a copy of a foreign design for the intermediate trainer role, they would better copy the M345, as it is doing exactly that for the Italian air force (being a preparatory step before the M346
    (the M346 is the Italian version of the Yak-130 (they started as a common design in the 1990s but then yak and aermacchi/alenia dissolved the partnership in the 2000 and finished developing the 2 aircrafts independently from each other).

    They don't really need to copy anything, just a simplified cheaper model of the Yak is all they need.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:47 am

    They can reconsider their decision to knock back the SR-10. The company that makes it is now proposing it as an intermediary trainer between the Yak-152 and Yak-130

    VKS trainer aircrafts status and needs - Page 3 DM43qJQW0AMXY7w
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:49 am

    GarryB wrote:
    They don't really need to copy anything, just a simplified cheaper model of the Yak is all they need.

    Actually the Russian SR-10 could also be a nice intermediate trainer. And the prototype already  performed  the first flight in 2015, so they would not need to wait so many years to develop a  new aircraft like it would be the case of a simplified yak130.


    I hope they change their mind and continue with it.

    http://mil.today/2018/23149/

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    Post  medo on Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:29 am

    Most probably SR-10 with today forward swept wings is still more acrobatic plane than trainer ( g limits +10/-8 ). But as this is simple plane, they could easily reshape it with conventional wing and got simple trainer jet. With more modern AL-55 engine it would be very interesting light training jet for many users. They cancel it too quickly.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:38 am

    Well the SR-10 should be considered, but it really depends on why it was rejected.

    The key is that it needs to replace the L-39 as it is currently used rather than as a replacement for the turboprop driven trainer that ended up being the Yak-152.

    Of course another alternative would be to give the MiG-AT trainer another look... but to be honest I would think the Yak-130 could benefit from a cheaper simpler model for countries that don't have 4+ and 5th gen fighters in service and could probably scale the training back a little.

    I liked the look of the SR-10, the forward swept wing was interesting, but doesn't make it a super manouverable stunt plane... the forward sweep reduces drag like a rearward swept wing, but instead of a back swept wing where spanwise flow gets to the wingtip and rolls over it generating a large vortex that creates enormous cones of drag at the wing tips, with a forward sweep, the spanwise flow moves to the wingroot and adds to body lift and has only minimal wingtip vortices... it means you can make the wing smaller and lighter, yet still generate the drag you need to keep the aircraft airborne.

    Along with LERX it should generate a nice area of energised air for tail surfaces to use to improve stability at high angles of attack too.
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    VKS trainer aircrafts status and needs - Page 3 Empty The first modernized L-39 trainer aircraft

    Post  George1 on Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:58 pm

    The first modernized L-39 trainer aircraft

    As part of the replacement of non-repairable and obsolete components, the aircraft received a new avionics completely Russian production. The painting of the machine with domestic enamels with high weather resistance, strength and elasticity has also been completed. After modernization, the L-39 will be transferred to the customer for flight tests.

    The aircraft is an upgraded version of the well-established L-39 trainer. JSC "EMZ V. M. Myasishchev ”provides design support for the operation and repair of these aircraft since 1997. As part of the service tasks, work is underway to increase the resources and service lives of aircraft and their components, to replace components with Russian-made analogues, to repair and purchase them, and to make improvements on ballots.


    On the part of bmpd, we recall that our blog reported back in 2012 on the plans of the Russian Aerospace Forces to modernize Czechoslovak-made L-39 airplanes to extend their use as main-stage aircraft .

    VKS trainer aircrafts status and needs - Page 3 80963110

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4049562.html
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    Post  marcellogo on Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:15 am

    George1 wrote:The first modernized L-39 trainer aircraft

    As part of the replacement of non-repairable and obsolete components, the aircraft received a new avionics completely Russian production. The painting of the machine with domestic enamels with high weather resistance, strength and elasticity has also been completed. After modernization, the L-39 will be transferred to the customer for flight tests.

    The aircraft is an upgraded version of the well-established L-39 trainer. JSC "EMZ V. M. Myasishchev ”provides design support for the operation and repair of these aircraft since 1997. As part of the service tasks, work is underway to increase the resources and service lives of aircraft and their components, to replace components with Russian-made analogues, to repair and purchase them, and to make improvements on ballots.


    On the part of bmpd, we recall that our blog reported back in 2012 on the plans of the Russian Aerospace Forces to modernize Czechoslovak-made L-39 airplanes to extend their use as main-stage aircraft .

    VKS trainer aircrafts status and needs - Page 3 80963110

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4049562.html

    THAT'S IS A GREAT NEWS! So also they will have a three stage training program, just like us: an high end primary to basic trainer with the Yak-152 /SF-260T, a very economical basic to advanced turbofan powered one with L-39/M-345 and finally a very advanced Lead In one with the Yak-130/M-346.

    Sorry for the interesting SR-10 but they had the right solution just inhouse.
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    Post  owais.usmani on Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:29 am

    marcellogo wrote:

    Sorry for the interesting SR-10 but they had the right solution just inhouse.

    Got to feel sorry for KB SAT SR-10, it looked like a very capable and promising aircraft. Sad
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    Post  Isos on Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:20 am

    They don't have enouh L-39. They will very likely buy another jet which could be the sr-10.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:46 am

    They have about 200 of them active. They will need more trainer jets for sure.
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    Post  marcellogo on Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:14 am

    miketheterrible wrote:They have about 200 of them active.  They will need more trainer jets for sure.

    Keeping them would mean they have time to develop an alternative with no hurry.

    Before the arrival of the Yak-130 all the basic and advanced training would have been done with it also, so the number needed would be minor.

    Substitution of it with the Yak-130 is not economically feasible and above all to pass directly between the Yak-152 and the Mitten during training would be quite risky.


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    Post  Isos on Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:23 am

    200 that are getting older and older everyday. We are in 2020, USSR ended in 1991 so everything build during soviet times is 30 years old or more.

    Russia can't keep soviet stuff as a base for its military anymore. It was possible in 2005 but not in 2021.

    They better stop upgrading 30 years old stuff and get new ones.

    Upgrades of such old stuff to bring them to modern level is just as expensive as buying new.

    And I wouldn't trust technology used for 30 years.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:51 am

    Well, besides tanks, I agree. They do need new. Planes are the things that need to be replaced more often.

    From my understanding, most of those L-39's are from 1975 or so. Making them older than most Su-24's that are in service.

    Yes, they do need a new jet inbetween. I don't know if the SR-10 was really that feasible of one but there was previous rumors of Mikoyan looking at restarting a training jet program - probably to replace those L-39's.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:57 am

    marcellogo wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:They have about 200 of them active.  They will need more trainer jets for sure.

    Keeping them would mean they have time to develop an alternative with no hurry.

    Before the arrival of the Yak-130 all the basic and advanced training would have been done with it also, so the number needed would be minor.

    Substitution of it with the Yak-130 is not economically feasible and above all to pass directly between the Yak-152 and the Mitten during training would be quite risky.



    That is were the SR-10 would have fitte perfectly.

    The italian air force has just introduced the M345, to fit in the training after the basic trainer (SF260) and the advanced trainer (M346, the italian equivalent to the Yak-130)
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    Post  Isos on Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:10 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Well, besides tanks, I agree. They do need new. Planes are the things that need to be replaced more often.

    From my understanding, most of those L-39's are from 1975 or so.  Making them older than most Su-24's that are in service.

    Yes, they do need a new jet inbetween. I don't know if the SR-10 was really that feasible of one but there was previous rumors of Mikoyan looking at restarting a training jet program - probably to replace those L-39's.

    That would be a good news for mikoyan. L-39 is not russian made so this is not a place already occupied by another russian plane company (like ilouchin for transport or tupolev for bombers).

    Mig being low on order and work but still having worker can kindda oblige the MoD to chose them. They also have the experience to make a very good jet.

    The design bureau that made the sr-10 isn't famous and made no military aircraft that is in service right now. The risk can be that what they made isn't good to last for decades like a mig-29 or a l-39 because they lack experience.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:53 am

    It is hard to give an opinion without knowing the reasons for the decisions being made... for instance... why was the MiG AT rejected, and why don't Yak just design and make a much cheaper and much simpler model of the Yak-130 as a basic jet trainer to fully replace the L-39, which would make things simpler and easier.

    Also why exactly was the SR-10 rejected... and why is an L-39 with its foreign components replaced with Russian parts considered to be the best solution?

    Perhaps a cheap new Yak-130 with a single engine and simplified avionics and less features might be the best solution... perhaps optimised to minimise operating costs as much as possible...

    Hell they could even go the other way and build an enlarged Yak-130 that is a bit like an F-5 with a radar and a single engine... maybe an RD-33 or something not too big, so for many countries on a budget they could buy the cheap trainer and the fighter and leave the expensive Yak-130 for the bigger countries...

    Thinking back and looking at a few articles from the time it seems one of the reasons for choosing the Yak over the MiG was that the Yak had potential as a light fighter... but with hindsight if it is too expensive to replace all of the L-39s as lead in fighter trainers then what would be the point of considering them for the light fighter role?

    The main problem with the MiG AT was that it seems to have been largely a MiG/Thales project which obviously would not be ideal, but I am sure Kret could step in and supply onboard equipment for the job at hand to make a simple first stage jet trainer... I mean if they have fully localised the parts for the L-39 they could simply port most of those across to the AT instead...

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