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    P-500 Bazalt / P-1000 Vulcan

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:25 pm


    I will admit to taking part in mocking the west for its failures to develop technologies Russia has mastered, but I atleast manage do so
    most of the time without lying or making unrealistic claims

    When did I lied ?

    I provided proofs for everything I said.

    When did Russia used S-300/400 to prove it's the best ? When did they intercept a western anti ship missile ? When did one of their missiles destroyed a ship armed with modern western stuff ?

    I never said Aster is the best and does as advertized, I said they proved their effectivness by destroying a mach 2.5 drone flying at low altitude. Russia doesn't use drones that immitate western missiles but old soviet missiles flying at 100m and having big rcs that are easy targets. P-500/700 are just too old and in low numbers to destroy anything protected by a modern wester AD system.

    All the syrian targets protected by Buk and pantsirs were destroyed. For every attack they say they intercepted all the missiles and the next day sat images prove the opposite. And that's cruise missiles flying higher than anti ship missiles.

    Contrary to the tomahawks, french missiles were not intercepted.

    West doesn't put billions on AD but on attacking systems. Yet almost all the countries that used soviet/Russian weapons lost their wars against countries using US/western stuff. That's a fact.
    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:33 pm

    Isos wrote:
    When did I lied ?

    I provided proofs for everything I said.

    It is not "When did I lied ?" it is 'When did I lie?', lied is past tense, you do not use past tense after the word 'did'.

    Queens English please.


    When did Russia used S-300/400 to prove it's the best ? When did they intercept a western anti ship missile ?

    Deos Russia need to fire a Sarmat at paris to prove that it works?

    Your obsession with things being proven is silly, the Panzer III was is a very well proven design, it conquered france before anyone could even notice, but I do not think that sending them in against some T-14 Armatas would be a wise idea.

    You also contradict yourself by claiming that the aster does not need further proof than tests.

    When did one of their missiles destroyed a ship armed with modern western stuff ?

    Thier ships in the 80's and 90's could not reliably shoot down P-15 Termits and not even wikipedia attempts to hide this, what chance do you think they have against even the P-500 Bazalt?

    I never said Aster is the best and does as advertized

    Previous post by ISOS>>
    Isos wrote:And Aster has the pifpaf mode which makes it the best missile system of its category.

    Well I guess I will have to take your word for it. lol!  lol!  lol!


    I said they proved their effectivness by destroying a mach 2.5 drone flying at low altitude. Russia doesn't use drones that immitate western missiles but old soviet missiles flying at 100m and having big rcs that are easy targets. P-500/700 are just too old and in low numbers to destroy anything protected by a modern wester AD system.

    The S-125 could hit supersonic low flying targets back in the 1960's and don't try and tell me that the missile system that got the first kill on a stealth plane could not hit low RCS targets.

    As far as "old Soviet missiles" well perhaps they could test their systems against new Russian missiles when there is such a thing as new western missiles. The exocet and harpoon are from the 70's and they were not even good for that time  

    All the syrian targets protected by Buk and pantsirs were destroyed

    Is this a joke?


    For every attack they say they intercepted all the missiles and the next day sat images prove the opposite. And that's cruise missiles flying higher than anti ship missiles.


    I think you will find it very easy to "hit targets" if the "targets" are decided upon after the attack. With of over a hundred missiles fired and only a few buildings destroyed thoes building were then designated as the targets, a 100% success.... for the propaganda department.


    West doesn't put billions on AD but on attacking systems. Yet almost all the countries that used soviet/Russian weapons lost their wars against countries using US/western stuff. That's a fact.

    Such as? Old obsolete ICBM's that cannot manover and subsonic cruise missiles with stealth casings and new branding?
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:29 pm

    You also contradict yourself by claiming that the aster does not need further proof than tests.

    No I don't. Aster tests were realistic against a mach 3 sea skimming missile. Russian test their missiles against big old soviet missiles that flies at 100m.

    Deos Russia need to fire a Sarmat at paris to prove that it works?

    Yes it does. They never tested sending it in western europe and they never tested new made nuclear warheads so who knows if they will work.

    Why us russia testing all of its weapons in Syria then ?


    Thier ships in the 80's and 90's could not reliably shoot down P-15 Termits and not even wikipedia attempts to hide this, what chance do you think they have against even the P-500 Bazalt?

    3rd time : when did they tried to shoot down a P-15 ??

    My first statement was P-500 is outdated against modern air defence.

    Well I guess I will have to take your word for it.

    Yeah I never said it works as advertized. I said it was the best system and even said, like the redut, it should have almost 100% Pk against old soviet mach 2 missiles.  You proved nothing there.

    The exocet and harpoon are from the 70's and they were not even good for that time  

    They send tens of soviet made ships to the bottom. New exocet and harpoons are not the same as the first ones.

    The S-125 could hit supersonic low flying targets back in the 1960's and don't try and tell me that the missile system that got the first kill on a stealth plane could not hit low RCS targets.

    Western missiles fly at less than 5m. Low flying targets used by Russia fly at 100m and have the rcs of a su-27.

    I think you will find it very easy to "hit targets" if the "targets" are decided upon after the attack. With of over a hundred missiles fired and only a few buildings destroyed thoes building were then designated as the targets, a 100% success.... for the propaganda department.

    They intercept missiles but that stop the enemy to destroy their country.

    See the pictures of Syrian targets. Everytime they destroy stuff.

    They even shot down a friendly Il-20 with that wonderfull AD systems.

    Northvietnamese AD downed lot of planes but that didn't stop US to destroy their country.

    Such as? Old obsolete ICBM's that cannot manover and subsonic cruise missiles with stealth casings and new branding?

    Old ICBM that can still do the job.

    Cruise missiles and stealth tech that are so bad that Russia doesn't put money on it... wait... su-57 and kh-59mk2 are exactly that... keep trying.

    It is not "When did I lied ?" it is 'When did I lie?', lied is past tense, you do not use past tense after the word 'did'.

    Queens English please.

    lol1 lol1

    I stop here. You are just like leftist on facebook or twitter that can't find any arguments or admit they are wrong so they use stupid thing like grammar (which in this case isn't even if my native language) to change the subject.

    You provide no facts, your only proofs are you pro-russian feelings "Russia strong ... French/western retarted... blah blah blah"

    Btw while you are at it, know that its France who created England.

    Get lost russian troll.
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:06 pm

    Isos wrote:

    I will admit to taking part in mocking the west for its failures to develop technologies Russia has mastered, but I atleast manage do so
    most of the time without lying or making unrealistic claims

    When did I lied ?

    I provided proofs for everything I said.

    When did Russia used S-300/400 to prove it's the best ? When did they intercept a western anti ship missile ? When did one of their missiles destroyed a ship armed with modern western stuff ?

    I never said Aster is the best and does as advertized, I said they proved their effectivness by destroying a mach 2.5 drone flying at low altitude. Russia doesn't use drones that immitate western missiles but old soviet missiles flying at 100m and having big rcs that are easy targets. P-500/700 are just too old and in low numbers to destroy anything protected by a modern wester AD system.

    All the syrian targets protected by Buk and pantsirs were destroyed. For every attack they say they intercepted all the missiles and the next day sat images prove the opposite. And that's cruise missiles flying higher than anti ship missiles.

    Contrary to the tomahawks, french missiles were not intercepted.

    West doesn't put billions on AD but on attacking systems. Yet almost all the countries that used soviet/Russian weapons lost their wars against countries using US/western stuff. That's a fact.


    Nice gish gallop.

    They won against USA systems, like Saudi won against Yemen : D

    Or as the USA won in Vietnam : )

    The USA never started any war agianst an enemy with mid level systems.

    They wasn't brave to start a land war agains Serbia, and by air wasn't capably to do destroy military targets, the best that they pulled was to destroy civilian targets . The good, close to hundred years old terror bombing tactics : D

    In Syria an outdated IADS forced Israel to destroy camel barns with multi million dollar supersonic cruise missiles.

    Leftover is similar , unproven bluff.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:22 pm

    They won against USA systems, like Saudi won against Yemen : D

    And what Houtis did win ?

    Or as the USA won in Vietnam : )

    And what did North Vietnam win ? They got attacked the next day of the end of the war by the Chinese.

    US lost almost nothing in comparison. Militarly they destroyed north vietnam. They were left with guerillas and lost millions of men for 50 000 or so US soldiers.

    Politicaly they lost because they couldn't install a puppet regime.

    Just like Maduro won politicaly but its country has became a shithole.

    The USA never started any war agianst an enemy with mid level systems.

    And ? At the end all the country want to use the dollar in international exchanges. I guess they win something with all their wars.

    Maybe you think letting nazi attack and kill millions of your men before launching counter attacks was better because they fight a stronger opponent ?



    They wasn't brave to start a land war agains Serbia, and by air wasn't capably to do destroy military targets, the best that they pulled was to destroy civilian targets . The good, close to hundred years old terror bombing tactics : D

    Why ground war when they achieved eveything they wanted ?

    What a success for Serbia. 1 f117 and some drones destroyed for the lost of Kosovo. Yeah they win for sure !!

    And lets not foret the mighty Russian help.

    You must yourself be a winner !!

    In Syria an outdated IADS forced Israel to destroy camel barns with multi million dollar supersonic cruise missiles.

    Syria is a shithole with every single building in the country hit by at least a bullet. Most of them are destroyed.

    Israel could wipe-out all the SAA in 1 week with even Hmeimim and Russians if Russia didn't had 5000 nuks.

    Destroying SAA air defence is a game for them. The most used missile is an analogus of kh38. Not expensive at all.

    Leftover is similar , unproven bluff.

    You just wrote a text with not a single proof. All of my statements were provided by explaination or historical proofs.
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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:50 pm

    Isos wrote:I stop here. You are just like leftist on facebook or twitter that can't find any arguments or admit they are wrong so they use stupid thing like grammar (which in this case isn't even if my native language) to change the subject.

    That's cute, the reason I did not respond to the part of your post I quoted was because it was so obviously bogus that there was no need.

    You provide no facts, your only proofs are you pro-russian feelings "Russia strong ...


    I provide more than you do and I am no stranger to being sceptical about Russian military equipment (see my posts on the T-90) while you praise updated 70's missiles as being greater than or equal to more modern and more advanced missiles like the Oniks.

    French/western retarted

    That is not an opinion that is a fact and a fact you have gone out of your way to prove.

    Btw while you are at it, know that its France who created England.
    At the time of that the normans were not exactly french.

    Nice try though.

    Old ICBM that can still do the job.

    I don't know what the situation looks like in eutardian loony land, but here in the real world all of the three superpowers are developing ABM systems but only Russia has the missiles to counter them.

    X nation was "destroyed"

    Well now it seems to me that not only do all of these nations still exist and do so without the taint of western occupation, but they all have something your little satellite state could only dream of, something called independence.

    As I said before you might just have a chance at it if you had a single spine to go around your entire population.....
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:25 am


    I provide more than you do

    Read again your posts. You seems to hpave brain issues.

    That is not an opinion that is a fact and a fact you have gone out of your way to prove.

    The only fact is that EU are well above anything other.
    Even Russians keep coming here. Who is going to live in Russia or China, who is imitating their life standard ? Who is trying to risk his life to get into China or Russia ?

    Europeans are well above Russia, China and USA.

    The center of the world was and will always be Europe.

    Russia was never a competitor in anything.

    Pro-russian and pro-US fanboys like you keeps repeting Europeans are small players when in fact they are the greatest and will always be. The world is turning around us. Keep that in mind.

    Dont get me wrong I'm not saying they are angels.




    Well now it seems to me that not only do all of these nations still exist and do so without the taint of western occupation, but they all have something your little satellite state could only dream of, something called independence.

    lol1 lol1 lol1

    I thought you had reached the bottom but it seems you keep digging.
    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:10 am

    Isos wrote:
    The only fact is that EU are well above anything other.
    Even Russians keep coming here. Who is going to live in Russia or China, who is imitating their life standard ? Who is trying to risk his life to get into China or Russia ?

    Europeans are well above Russia, China and USA.

    The center of the world was and will always be Europe.

    Russia was never a competitor in anything.

    Pro-russian and pro-US fanboys like you keeps repeting Europeans are small players when in fact they are the greatest and will always be. The world is turning around us. Keep that in mind.

    Dont get me wrong I'm not saying they are angels.



    Well that takes the cake, if you want anyone to ever take you seriously then don't ever post anything like that again.


    PS you are sinking further into delusion with each post, remember insulting a nation only works if the insults are based on reality.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:05 am

    Can you quote the insult ? Because I can't see it.

    Can you provide some proof or some arguments that make what I say false.

    I'm done with you. You are quite pathetic at debating. You just shit some words and affirmation from your ass that are based on your jalousy.
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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:46 am

    Isos wrote: You just shit some words and affirmation from your ass that are based on your jalousy.

    What is this jalosy? I have never heard of it.

    If what you meant was jealousy, then I must inform you that I would not move to europe even if I was paid to and given a free chateau.

    As far as europe's recognition goes, being respected by fools is meaningless.
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:59 pm

    Isos wrote:
    They won against USA systems, like Saudi won against Yemen : D
    ....

    Leftover is similar , unproven bluff.

    You just wrote a text with not a single proof. All of my statements were provided by explaination or historical proofs.

    Nice galop.

    Just the interesting part: the outdated, 40 years old SAM systems forced the WHOLE NATO air force to spend 30% of they time with SAED missinons WITHOUT DESTROYING SAM SYSTEMS.

    Compare that with the perfomrance of the  materially and numerically superior Iraq air deffence .

    Of course, you feel like you are right , and without having anything supporting your argument you want to push this feeling throught : )

    You haven't got proof, all that you say is proof supported by your feelings : )



    Again ,compare the Iraq vs serbia USA IADS, you will be suprised : D

    And one more remark, the kh38 equivalent is cheap, I am sure Israel make each for no more than 750 000 $.

    I am sure you feel the difference between a 500 $ dumb bomb, and a three quoter million missile : )

    This is the single difference that few point deffence system, and few hours of thraining and minimum maintanance for 60 years old SAMs make.
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    Post  George1 on Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:35 pm

    Please return on topic
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:48 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    They won against USA systems, like Saudi won against Yemen : D
    ....

    Leftover is similar , unproven bluff.

    You just wrote a text with not a single proof. All of my statements were provided by explaination or historical proofs.

    Nice galop.

    Just the interesting part: the outdated, 40 years old SAM systems forced the WHOLE NATO air force to spend 30% of they time with SAED missinons WITHOUT DESTROYING SAM SYSTEMS.

    Compare that with the perfomrance of the  materially and numerically superior Iraq air deffence .

    Of course, you feel like you are right , and without having anything supporting your argument you want to push this feeling throught : )

    You haven't got proof, all that you say is proof supported by your feelings : )



    Again ,compare the Iraq vs serbia USA IADS, you will be suprised : D

    And one more remark, the kh38 equivalent is cheap, I am sure Israel make each for no more than 750 000 $.

    I am sure you feel the difference between a 500 $ dumb bomb, and a three quoter million missile : )

    This is the single difference that few point deffence system, and few hours of thraining and minimum maintanance for 60 years old SAMs make.


    Serbia and Iraq are eating shit now. Those 40 years old SAM were good at what ? Making US use 500 or 600 or even 1000 HARM ? And then what ? They both lost and the 1000 HARM cost is nothing for the US.

    750 000$ for the israeli missile and what is the result ? Syria destroyed. They even shot down a multi million dollar russian il-20 whike S-400 were watching and doing nothing.

    Israeli also used cheap drone to overwhelm and destroy two or three pantsir.

    They fired thousands of AD missile for no real result. 1 israeli f-16 downed and 1 US f-117 and 1 f-16 downed in Serbia. What a success.
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    Post  Isos on Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:48 pm

    George1 wrote:Please return on topic

    You can delete the post if you want.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:30 am

    Isos wrote:Serbia and Iraq are eating shit now. Those 40 years old SAM were good at what ? Making US use 500 or 600 or even 1000 HARM ? And then what ? They both lost and the 1000 HARM cost is nothing for the US.

    750 000$ for the israeli missile and what is the result ? Syria destroyed. They even shot down a multi million dollar russian il-20 whike S-400 were watching and doing nothing.

    Israeli also used cheap drone to overwhelm and destroy two or three pantsir.

    They fired thousands of AD missile for no real result. 1 israeli f-16 downed and 1 US f-117 and 1 f-16 downed in Serbia. What a success.

    Did you have an extra big helping of troll this morning???  Talk about being disingenuous and distorting facts to fit an agenda....

    Syria destroyed?  Syria has been the target of a concerted regime change via Wahabbi terrorist proxy army, aided and abetted by her neighbours, the US and NATOstani vassals. Not sure how the Syrian AD was supposed to stop screaming hordes from Turkey or terror gang infiltration from Jordan and Occupied Golan.

    Il-20 shot down?  Due to Zionista malfeasance.  And what were Russian S-400s supposed to do about it?  Maybe you think they should have seen it coming and shot down the S-200?

    Sure the Zios fired a ton of loitering drones to whack a few Pantsirs (that were isolated and operated poorly).  So what?  Nobody said Pantsirs are invulnerable wonderwaffe.

    Thousands of AA for no result?  The Zios no longer enter Syrian airspace to launch attacks but launch stand-off weapons from over Lebanon or the Eastern med. That is a good indicator that the Syrian AD is effective.  Many Zio missiles fail to get thru, so again, another good indicator.  Try the same level of aggression against, say London, and you'd get a better success rate.

    Cease the nonsense buddy.  It's getting a little tiresome.
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:44 am

    [quote="Isos"][quote="Singular_Transform"]
    Isos wrote:
    They won against USA systems, like Saudi won against Yemen : D
    ....

    ...
    They fired thousands of AD missile for no real result. 1 israeli f-16 downed and 1 US f-117 and 1 f-16 downed in Serbia. What a success.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

    Technique and countermeasures
    During a Gish gallop, a debater confronts an opponent with a rapid series of many specious arguments, half-truths, and misrepresentations in a short space of time, which makes it impossible for the opponent to refute all of them within the format of a formal debate.[3][4] In practice, each point raised by the "Gish galloper" takes considerably more time to refute or fact-check than it did to state in the first place.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:36 am

    There is nothing to refute. Israeli lost just one f16 the last 10 or so years to SAA AD.

    Il-20 was shot down by SAA AD no matter what Israeli f16 did. They should have known by looking on radar that the il-20 could be taregted when the f16 were going near it.

    They entered multiple times in Syria and launched missiles even near Hmeimim.

    Yeah they are not stupid to go inside the IADS which is doing well only because Russian are modernizing it with plenty of new radars. They have tactics and use them effectively. SAA would be dead meat today against the guerillas if the russians weren't there, let alone if Israel used all of its air power in real war. Its 40 year old AD sucks.

    I answer to your multiple points that you bring in and I don't create them. The topic of my posts were the p-1000 being outdated against modern AD and that russian don't test its naval AD against sea skimming stealthy missiles You are the one going off topic like the other because you can't provide proofs for anything you say so you change the subject.
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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:59 am

    Well then could you point us to your "irrefutable" evidence?

    You have failed miserably to dismiss any of my points, repeating bullshit only works on morons.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:37 pm

    So much off topic and butt hurt in this thread, I was going to prune, but I think I will just lock.

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