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    2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Thu Sep 14, 2023 3:34 pm

    For me, microwave ignition is not so much important as full gun automatization.
    That opens entirely new perspectives, like unmanned batteries.
    At this moment, the gun can be just located on position, left by the crew, and it will perform fire tasks on its own.
    Soon it won't need a driver either, and the commander and gunner can be just replaced by a remote station, while a whole battery will be handled by a few technicians in case of any malfunction.
    Wars are getting more and more third-person view ...

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    Post  lyle6 Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:00 pm

    Microwave ignition is one massive leap closer to the gunnery holy grail that is guns that don't cook off - on their own or through enemy action.

    That alone is worth more than looking into, nevermind the massive ballistic improvements offered by full control of the ignition sequence or the improved resource life - useful for long engagements.

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:33 pm

    I am not quite sure if that has anything to do - on a measurable scale - with the ignition sequence.
    It is not ETC if I understand correctly.
    The difference is that instead of mechanical - chemical ignition, you have microwaves emission that cooks off a whole charge at once.
    Or maybe I have a gap dunno ?

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    Post  lyle6 Thu Sep 14, 2023 5:33 pm

    Is there a practical difference between the two? Microwave is just one implementation of ETC as far as I understand it.

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Sep 14, 2023 5:53 pm

    And there is a devil - IDK dunno
    A theoretical advantage of the ECT is the fact that you can prolong the ignition, minimalizing the pressure losses at the whole barrel length.
    For 2S35, and its dedicated ammo, nobody is citing the fact.
    What's more, the system is considered to be compatible with all standard 152mm ammunition in storage.
    And the two do not add up to me.
    As far as I can imagine a microwave ignition of a standard combustible charge, I can't imagine how to make it burn longer.
    And if you ask me, the modular charges dedicated for 2S35 don't seem like something that can be steadily exploded either.
    I guess we don't have enough data yet. Time will tell.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Sep 14, 2023 6:00 pm

    Whatever koalitsiya achieved, K9 thunder did better 10 years before, and is actually in service. It also has the VULCANO round, which has gps+inetrial guidance, 70-80km range and launches a terminal heat seaking gudiance EFP.

    Lets wait till it enters combat and proves itself before we claim any superiority, remember all the European guns were supposed to be amazing state of the art and put the Russian guns to shame... but only with the correct ammo and only if you fire less than 100 rounds a day or they break down.

    The difference is that instead of mechanical - chemical ignition, you have microwaves emission that cooks off a whole charge at once.

    The irony is that with small arms if your charge is too small you have to put wadding in it to stop the flash running the length of the cartridge case and igniting the entire charge at once, which tends to blow up rifles or guns normally.

    If this new gun can handle the pressure of the entire charge being set off at once rather than burning from one end to the other then that suggests it reaches peak chamber pressure very rapidly and maintains it while the projectile is in the barrel, which explains why it manages such good range performance.

    What's more, the system is considered to be compatible with all standard 152mm ammunition in storage.

    My understanding of that was that the new gun can fire all the older shells designed for the various different guns but it would use the new propellant rather than the old propellant.

    Igniting all the propellant charge at once means peak pressure is reached immediately and the pressure would presumably remain high while the shell remained in the barrel so its acceleration along the barrel would be maximised, meaning the best possible muzzle velocity would be achieved and the best range achieved with that shell.

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    Post  lyle6 Mon Oct 23, 2023 6:31 pm

    2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm - Page 23 File
    First spotting of 2S35 Koala in 404. By a hohol drone no less. Fortunately it managed to have slipped its pursuer somehow or we'd be seeing its hulk.

    *RUMINT is the Russians had a change in tactics. Artillery still shoots and scoots, but they retreat to safe zones in the rear screened by counter-UAS assets, not just any sufficiently dense treeline. Enthusiastic hohol drone operators would follow, but they get jammed or shot down in the attempt. Twisted Evil

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    Post  BenVaserlan Thu Oct 26, 2023 3:39 pm

    Relatively informative about the 2S35.  Yes; only "2S19M2" on the thumbnail.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Oct 27, 2023 2:39 am

    Interesting, but most of the video is not Coalition... many are American vehicles and Excalibr animations...
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    Post  BenVaserlan Fri Oct 27, 2023 5:21 am

    GarryB wrote:Interesting, but most of the video is not Coalition... many are American vehicles and Excalibr animations...

    Correct; the pictures are not of the 2S35.  But the voice-over is about the 2S35.  For actual footage, I suggest you for the Combat Approved episode on the 2S35.

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    Post  Hole Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:57 pm

    2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm - Page 23 52160110
    Long-Range Precision Artillery Munition or Long-Range Guided Projectile "Coalition-WTO".

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    Post  thegopnik Fri Dec 08, 2023 11:10 pm

    cant google translate that, range?
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    Post  GarryB Sat Dec 09, 2023 11:41 am

    Is that the 43km 152mm shell using Glonass guidance?
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    Post  Hole Sat Dec 09, 2023 11:56 am

    Original post:
    Во-вторых, - это обновление боекомплекта 2С35 «Коалиция-СВ» перспективными дальнобойными управляемыми активно-реактивными снарядами с донными газогенераторами и ГЛОНАСС/ИНС-коррекцией (с КВО порядка 15 - 7 м и дальностью в 75-80 км)

    Translation:
    Secondly, it is the renewal of the ammunition load of the 2S35 "Koalitsiya-SV" with promising long-range guided active-rocket projectiles with bottom gas generators and GLONASS/INS correction (with a CEP of about 15-7 m and a range of 75-80 km)

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    Post  sepheronx Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:06 pm

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    Post  DerWolf Mon Dec 25, 2023 1:17 pm

    Why has the koalitsya shell such a range 70 km compare to others which have like 40 km? Almost double.
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    Post  kvs Mon Dec 25, 2023 2:59 pm

    There is a total mess with coverage of artillery range. We have routine confusion of Excalibur shell range with regular shell range for M777 artillery
    pieces, etc. For the same 152 mm diameter gun the range of regular shells can be extended by having a longer barrel length and more shell propellant.
    But anything in the 70 km range requires the shell to have propulsion after it leaves the barrel.

    The Excalibur GPS guided shell uses fins to glide which extends its range to 40-57 km (I am highly dubious about the upper limit). Obviously Russia
    can field similar shells since this is not sci-fi alien tech. But gliding can't get you to 70 km and we are talking rocket propulsion (RAP). There is
    an overlap with RAP as well since existing shells can have rather short ranges (30-40 km).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket-assisted_projectile

    The M777 RAP round does not make sense to me since its 40 km range is no better than the Excalibur glide round. I suppose it is cheaper because it
    is not GPS guided but the price looks like a contractor scam to me.


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    Post  GarryB Tue Dec 26, 2023 2:30 am

    There are several ways of improving range performance, the most common is increasing muzzle velocity, but that means nothing if you don't also optimise the shape and weight of your projectile.

    If you look at the shape of a cannon ball you will see it is very much not aerodynamic and is designed to roll down a barrel easily for loading.

    To improve aerodynamics you make the projectile bullet shaped, so if it is supersonic then a pointy nose helps it cut through the air but a short stumpy bullet makes the projectile light for its calibre which means it has less momentum to push through the air.

    The most aerodynamic shapes are long and thin like a Javelin (the sporting equipment, not the missile), where its narrow diameter means low drag as long as it is moving point forward and its length gives it mass to push through the air efficiently without slowing down very much.

    The opposite of that is an inflated balloon.... it is very light so if you throw it it accelerates quickly but when you release it it does not push the air in front of it aside very well because it is big and draggy and has very little mass so while you can get it up to high speed it rapidly loses speed when you release it because its huge surface area has to displace a lot of air for it to move and it has very little weight to do so.

    Early rifle bullets had round noses and flat bases, but pretty quickly they went to pointed bullets or spire point bullets and what are called boat tails where the rear end of the bullet gets narrower and then as a flat base that is narrower than the full width of the projectile.

    The pointy nose helps it cut through the air at supersonic speed and the boat tail massively reduces drag once the projectile is subsonic.

    Your standard rifle bullet like the 5.45mm leaves a barrel at almost mach 3 but by the time it has travelled 7 or 800m it is subsonic.

    Older 30 calibre rifle bullets had a similar problem and when the 303 went from a flat tailed bullet to a boat tailed bullet the increase in performance was impressive.

    With a flat based bullet the ballistic range of the bullet was about 2km. With a boat tailed bullet it is about 4 to 5km.

    Regarding this new artillery shell making the projectile more aerodynamic allows it to maintain a higher velocity which dramatically increases flight range.

    By being low drag if a projectile can maintain a higher flight speed it will travel further and they also use all sorts of tricks to do that as well.

    One is rocket assisted where they put a rocket motor in the base of the round to accelerate the projectile after it as left the barrel of the gun.

    Base bleed is like a very low energy rocket in the base of a shell that does not accelerate the round in flight... what it does is fill the air pocket behind the round in flight, which essentially reduces its drag to near zero so it maintains its flight speed for longer.

    The more speed you keep the more energy you retain the further you travel.

    If you have held you hand out of a car window while the car is moving you will know it is strong in the suburbs where you are going 50km/h, but on the motorway the force is much much stronger and it is hard to hold your hand in that airflow.

    It keeps getting worse the faster you go, so a supersonic projectile has an enormous force of wind blowing on it so being a slim aerodynamic shape lets you cut through the wind minimising the force of the air you are travelling through to slow you down.

    How does Coalitia reach so far?

    A longer barrel gives the projectile more time to accelerate to a higher speed.

    An optimised shell shape and design will also maximise its range, so low drag, as well as perhaps a reduced weight to allow it to accelerate to a higher speed in the barrel of the gun.

    I would also suspect the propellent being used is designed to reach peak pressure rapidly if not immediately which means the projectile accelerates as quickly as it can along the length of the barrel... meaning it reaches top possible speed when it exits the barrel.

    They were talking about extending range even further to 180km, but I suspect that might be using ramjet assistance, or perhaps a reduced calibre low drag design that is like a fat APFSDS round but instead of being a solid metal dart designed to penetrate armour it would be a longer thinner projectile with HE.

    So with a 152mm shell it might be an 80mm calibre dart that is twice as long as a 152mm HE shell that might have 30kgs of HE and fragments instead of 50kg of HE and fragments... an 80mm shell would be much lower drag in flight than a 152mm shell so it will retain speed much better and therefore land further away.

    Previously that was pointless because the extra range would be too inaccurate to be useful for anything at all but with every shell with some sort of guidance getting it into a 5-15m circle of where you are aiming then that is no longer a problem.

    Obviously an 80mm calibre round could have a 20mm tube around it (total diameter 120mm... 20+80+20) that could be a ramjet strapped around the core HE projectile with its guidance etc, and you could fill the rear portion of the outer tube with solid rocket fuel and ramjet fuel so you fire it and it fires its rocket fuel to accelerate after it leaves the gun barrel and then the nose fairing falls away when the solid rocket fuel is burned out and air gets sucked into the nose intakes and compressed and liquid fuel is burned with the air going into the air intake to accelerate the projectile for a 30 or 40 second period of time or so and then the outer case could fall away leaving the core to continue with reduced drag to the target area.

    It is something they can already do with their missiles like the SA-6 and Kh-31 and Moskit and Onyx and Zircon (except the ramjet falling away of course).

    Make it a ramjet and even old 152mm guns will have long range reach... scramjet powered shells could have enormous range and I hope they develop them for  152mm and perhaps 203mm new artillery guns for the Navy and the Army.

    The west talks about defeating air defences with swarms but actually putting that into practise is hard because to be a swarm you need numbers and to get numbers they need to be small and cheap which makes long range and high speed a problem.

    A 152mm gun firing 16 rounds a minute in the land based model and perhaps 90 rounds per minute in a naval version would be an excellent way of building up a swarm attack on naval targets...  even a ramjet powered shell could be relatively cheap... ramjets are simple and the guidance component is relatively cheap cellphone level technology these days too.
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    Post  william.boutros Thu Dec 28, 2023 8:50 am

    DerWolf wrote:Why has the koalitsya shell such a range 70 km compare to others which have like 40 km? Almost double.

    These are rocket assisted shells. Because it has a longer barrel.
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    Post  william.boutros Thu Dec 28, 2023 8:51 am

    Hole wrote:Original post:
    Во-вторых, - это обновление боекомплекта 2С35 «Коалиция-СВ» перспективными дальнобойными управляемыми активно-реактивными снарядами с донными газогенераторами и ГЛОНАСС/ИНС-коррекцией (с КВО порядка 15 - 7 м и дальностью в 75-80 км)

    Translation:
    Secondly, it is the renewal of the ammunition load of the 2S35 "Koalitsiya-SV" with promising long-range guided active-rocket projectiles with bottom gas generators and GLONASS/INS correction (with a CEP of about 15-7 m and a range of 75-80 km)
    7-15 m is not accurate at all.
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Thu Dec 28, 2023 4:28 pm

    william.boutros wrote:

    7-15 m is not accurate at all.

    That is about as accurate as satellite navigation usually is.

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Dec 28, 2023 5:20 pm

    You have spoiled the joke 😈🤭

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    Post  Belisarius Thu Dec 28, 2023 5:54 pm

    155/152 shrapnel can kill from more than 50 meters away...

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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 29, 2023 3:10 am

    7-15 m is not accurate at all.

    That will be in any conditions, day night, and in cross winds. Most of the time it will be rather better which is plenty accurate enough for a 40kg HE shell.

    Remember they can fire half a dozen shells at the same target so if you draw a circle 15m across and put 6 random shell impact points all over that circle that is good enough for most targets.

    With standard artillery the CEP for 122mm ammo at 15km range is about 115m long and about 8m wide.

    Artillery is normally used against area targets like troops spread out in a field where the volume of firing 16 rounds a minute is more important than how precise the shells land compared to the point they are aimed at.

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    Post  ALAMO Fri Dec 29, 2023 9:04 am

    You are seriously answering to a troll, that can't understand the basic physical accuracy of GPS signal.
    Laughing
    Your smartphone GPS module can determine your location within 4.9m radius. That number applies only for a nonmoving location in the open.
    Any disruption of the signal will affect the accuracy.
    And a funny story is, that this location is actually better than military grade because your smartphone uses additional augmentation systems provided by the operator. While the only additional correction of GPS signal for military appliance id doubling the frequency to squeeze the interferences of atmosphere.
    So if we will take for granted that a projectile will hit in 5-15 m radius, it means a pinpoint accuracy determined by the GPS signal itself, when the higher figure applies to a moving target or its use in an urban area etc.
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