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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:15 pm

    I think I said this in some other thread, but Russia is developing the PD-12V turboshaft for the Mi-26 based on the PD-8 engine core. There is no good reason why this could not then be used as the basis for an aviation turboshaft engine. Another option is the NK-12MPM engine used in the Tu-95MSM upgrade.

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    wilhelm


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    Post  wilhelm Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:46 pm

    It is an odd report, that makes little sense.

    There are no 4 engine new build or in-production aeroplanes, apart from the Il-96 and 76.

    Unless it is to be based on the il-76..but that is..weird.
    There are better candidates out there.

    I wonder if the message is being garbled in the reporting.
    It would not be the first nor last time.

    EDIT:..Hmmm...the Beriev Be-42 could technically be described as a 4 engined airframe..even if 2 of those engines are smaller boost units.
    I would imagine those boost units would be done away with if modernised..

    But they specifically mention turboprops, not jet engines...

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sat Mar 04, 2023 1:24 pm

    Lancelot wrote:I think I said this in some other thread, but Russia is developing the PD-12V turboshaft for the Mi-26 based on the PD-8 engine core. There is no good reason why this could not then be used as the basis for an aviation turboshaft engine. Another option is the NK-12MPM engine used in the Tu-95MSM upgrade.

    Exactly. Actually the new turboprop/turboshaft derived from the PD-8 will be more powerful than 2 of the engines of the Il-38 (around 3 times more powerful than the Tv7-117), so I do not understand why they would insist for a 4 engined aircraft as new ASW.

    Wilhelm wrote:It is an odd report, that makes little sense.

    There are no 4 engine new build or in-production aeroplanes, apart from the Il-96 and 76.

    Unless it is to be based on the il-76..but that is..weird.
    There are better candidates out there.


    Well, the American C-130 military transport aircraft has 4 turboprop engines and should be of a comparable size to the il-38.
    I know that it is an old project and it did its first flight in 1954 (3 years before the An-12), but its modernised versions are still in production.

    Anyway, yeah, I do not understand if it is a new design why they should go for a four engine aircraft.

    Maybe they are just planning to restart production of a modernised version of il-38 with new engines and do not want to spend too much resources on that (but I doubt it, since the il-38 has not been produced anymore since 1972)

    Wilhelm wrote:EDIT:..Hmmm...the Beriev Be-42 could technically be described as a 4 engined airframe..even if 2 of those engines are smaller boost units.
    I would imagine those boost units would be done away with if modernised..

    Well, probably with 2 PS-90 engines the Be-42 (aka A40) would not need the boosters.  

    Wilhelm wrote:
    I wonder if the message is being garbled in the reporting.
    It would not be the first nor last time.
    the best would be if we discover that it would be a new twin engine turboprop that would share part of the design and development with a new An-12 replacement Laughing

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Sat Mar 04, 2023 1:27 pm

    Ilyushin has gained a lot of valuable experience with the IL-114 so I would not be surprised if it will be based on a enlarged version of the 114?

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Mar 04, 2023 11:45 pm

    The Tu-204/214 could instead be used for a new AEW&C aircraft (like the American Boeing 737 AEW&C).

    At the moment AWACS planes are Beriev planes even though they are based on the Il-76 and Il-476...

    EDIT:..Hmmm...the Beriev Be-42 could technically be described as a 4 engined airframe..even if 2 of those engines are smaller boost units.
    I would imagine those boost units would be done away with if modernised..

    The original main engines in the Be-42 were the 12 ton thrust D-30s of the original Il-76 which needed two extra 2 ton thrust boosters for takeoffs, but the new PS90 types are 14-18 tons thrust and would simplify things as well as standardise engines too.

    If it was made now I really don't think it would have four engines.

    Ilyushin has gained a lot of valuable experience with the IL-114 so I would not be surprised if it will be based on a enlarged version of the 114?

    Lots of their projects have been modifications of existing types, like the Il-276 as a shrunk down Il-476, and they had plans for a body bloated version of the Tu-214 as the Tu-330 transport, well there was another version with the twin engines moved to the tail to replace the Tu-134 and Yak-40 called the Tu-334 and a T tail.

    The problem of course is that unless they incorporate something radical like and new oval shape lifting body most existing aircraft designs are generally already very good and there needs to be a very good reason to change them to increase risk. New engines and new wings make sense, but totally new aircraft are a bit of a waste really.

    A decent new set of engines can make an old plane almost as good as a new one and if the new one with lots of composite materials has problems like delaminating or wear and tear then sometimes the older metal planes have more history and track records so you know when problems with this or that will develop, whereas new materials... you can't be so sure about.

    Replacing the turbofan engines with decent turboprops would be useful for reducing safe flight speeds... it is interesting they talk about four engines... perhaps a mid range plane between the An-12 and the Il-476 could be made as that would be really in the An-70 range which the VDV might be interested in buying too... it just all depends on the power levels they are talking about.

    The An-22 was a very successful aircraft and rather popular too... perhaps a ducted fan or something modern and flash could be in the works?
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Mar 05, 2023 9:51 am

    A tu-214 ASW version could be modified to carry hypersonic missiles. As an airliner it can carry a big loads. So they get their new ASW plane which gives them a bonus of being a strategical bomber.

    Even 2-4 Kinzhal would make it a very dangerous and valuable plateform.

    Load it and launch the missiles then go for the ASW missions.

    Il-114 is too small. It could carry 2 or 4 kh-35 but it has short legs.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:03 am

    Kinzhal would almost be 4 tons in weight each, an air launched Zircon will likely be about 2.5 to 3 tons and Kinzhal would likely not reach 2,000km from a 10km altitude launch at subsonic speeds... perhaps half that at best.

    I think Kinzhal makes sense but also makes sense launched from a MiG-31K which can remain a fast responder where needed, while a new MPA to replace the Il-38 could include a new airliner type but also likely some sort of HALE or MALE type drone.

    The Il-114 could have a fuselage extension and be used as a coastal MPA to replace essentially the Be-12 Mail but without the ability to land on water.

    I personally would have liked to have seen the A-40 used in an MPA role with more engine performance... there was one version with its two jet engines replaced with the prop fans of the An-70 but that wouldn't make sense these days.

    Eventually Russian Air Lines will have enough Superjets and MS-21s so the Tu-204/214s they bought in the mean time could be converted to the various military roles being currently taken by old obsolete aircraft, and the Tu-330 is also based on the same designs and would be rather useful too.

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:06 am

    Isos wrote:A tu-214 ASW version could be modified to carry hypersonic missiles. As an airliner it can carry a big loads. So they get their new ASW plane which gives them a bonus of being a strategical bomber.

    Even 2-4 Kinzhal would make it a very dangerous and valuable plateform.

    Load it and launch the missiles then go for the ASW missions.

    Il-114 is too small. It could carry 2 or 4 kh-35 but it has short legs.

    Unless there is something we do not know against having a turbofan powered aircraft there the Tu-204/214 would be a safe choice.

    It already exists in special military variants, it is in production and the development of an ASW version should not take too long.

    The USA also replaced the 4 engine turboprop P3 with the P8 (a Boeing 737-800 derivative).


    Rodion Romanovic wrote:The Tu-204/214 could instead be used for a new AEW&C aircraft (like the American Boeing 737 AEW&C).


    GarryB wrote:At the moment AWACS planes are Beriev planes even though they are based on the Il-76 and Il-476...
    Well, that is not a problem, Beriev can take the Tu-204 and make an AEW&C called Be-204.

    Beriev, Ilyushin,Tupulev, Yakovlev, etc all belong to UAC anyway.

    By the way a few years ago SAAB developed a maritime patrol aircraft (called SAAB Swordfish) based on a Bombardier Global 6000 Business jet: they bought the "vanilla" aircraft from Bombardier and then transformed it into a maritime patrol aircraf.

    https://www.saab.com/newsroom/press-releases/2018/swordfish-redefines-tomorrows-maritime-patrol-aircraft

    GarryB wrote:I personally would have liked to have seen the A-40 used in an MPA role with more engine performance... there was one version with its two jet engines replaced with the prop fans of the An-70 but that wouldn't make sense these days.


    Concening propfans... Maybe a new prop fan will be made in Russia as a derivative of the new Mi-26 turboshaft engine (which is a PD-8 derivative).
    By the way, both the propeller and the gearbox of the D-27 (the engine of the An-70) were developed and made in Russia.

    In any case I would really like to see the Be-42 (A-40) back in production, either with two PS-90 or even with brand new propfans (but that would mean having to wait several more years).

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    Post  Hole Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:55 am

    The designation of an Tu-212 turned into an AWACS plane would start with an A, like the A-50 or the new A-100.
    This was done because Iljushin (or now Tupolev) "made" the plane while Beriev worked with the eletronics companies
    to integrate all the electronics.

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Sun Mar 05, 2023 1:14 pm

    I also would like to see the A-42 back in business - and apparently their are plans - but it was and still is a only replacement for the ancient Be-12.

    Isos wrote:Il-114 is too small. It could carry 2 or 4 kh-35 but it has short legs.

    Naturally - and that is exactly why I said "based on an enlarged version of the IL-114".

    The brief apparently states 4 turboprop engines. It would be very simple for them to design a stretched/wide-body version of the IL-114 and stick 4 engines on the wings and rename it as the IL-1114 or something. Now that would instantly give you a much longer ranged aircraft with a much bigger internal layout as well. Very common practice and sometimes they even reverse the process. For example Tupelov took the Tu-16 and turned it into the very successful Tu-104 airliner, but not only that - they then took the Tu-104 as a basis for a much smaller Tu-124. They even made a 4 engined version of the basic Tu-104. So nothing new.

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    Post  Mir Sun Mar 05, 2023 1:20 pm

    R_R wrote: Unless there is something we do not know against having a turbofan powered aircraft there the Tu-204/214 would be a safe choice.

    I'm sure they have plenty of reasons. One such is that a prop aircraft can fly much slower than a jet engine aircraft. This is apparently quite useful when attempting to track subs in the deep with MAD.

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    Broski
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    Post  Broski Sun Mar 05, 2023 2:13 pm

    I think Russia making their own version of the Chinese AG600 would be more useful for ASW than reviving the Beriev A-40.

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    Post  Isos Sun Mar 05, 2023 2:56 pm

    The brief apparently states 4 turboprop engines. It would be very simple for them to design a stretched/wide-body version of the IL-114 and stick 4 engines on the wings and rename it as the IL-1114 or something. Now that would instantly give you a much longer ranged aircraft with a much bigger internal layout as well. Very common practice and sometimes they even reverse the process. For example Tupelov took the Tu-16 and turned it into the very successful Tu-104 airliner, but not only that - they then took the Tu-104 as a basis for a much smaller Tu-124. They even made a 4 engined version of the basic Tu-104. So nothing new.

    Not so easy. Il-112V uses the same engine and is still struggling getting into service.

    A longer il-114 with 4 engines isn't an il-114 anymore.

    Kinzhal would almost be 4 tons in weight each, an air launched Zircon will likely be about 2.5 to 3 tons and Kinzhal would likely not reach 2,000km from a 10km altitude launch at subsonic speeds... perhaps half that at best.

    Tu-204 with seats and equipements for civilians can carry 25t.

    A tu-214 with less seats and cargo will have the capacity to carry the 16 tons of 4 kinzhal or at least 4 lighter zirkon, kh-101 or those new hypersonic missiles in development.

    Issue would be that it is a civilian design so unlikely it can carry weapon pylons without big modifications.

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:04 pm

    Isos wrote:Not so easy. Il-112V uses the same engine and is still struggling getting into service.

    So what?! I did not see any IL-114's flying around dropping out of the sky?

    Isos wrote:A longer il-114 with 4 engines isn't an il-114 anymore.

    And that's why I renamed it - Tu-1114 (or whatever) cheers

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    Post  ALAMO Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:10 pm

    Post Broski Today at 2:13 pm

    I think Russia making their own version of the Chinese AG600


    Missed Be-200 somehow? scratch What a Face

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:24 pm

    So what?! I did not see any IL-114's flying around dropping out of the sky?

    No but having a similar plane experiencing huge design issues will make them think twice about creating a bigger plane based on them using the same engines.

    Il-114 also saw its production line closed in Kazakhstan. Putin ordered to restart it in Russia but orders are inexistant as far as I know. I doubt they will open a production line for a bigger plane that will be build in what, 10 pieces ?

    Tu-214 is already used for special mission planes, they have plenty of remaining bodies in the hangar and have the production line for more to be build.

    Il-114 can be good as it is for the Black sea, Baltic sea or close protection of the cost around naval bases and launch kh-35 against plenty of targets. But the real ASW will be based on tu-214 IMO.
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    Post  Mir Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:49 pm

    @Isos

    No but having a similar plane experiencing huge design issues will make them think twice about creating a bigger plane based on them using the same engines.

    Perhaps you haven't noticed? Despite using virtually the same engine there is quite a significant difference between these two aircraft designs. They are not similar at all! Laughing

    Tu-214 is already used for special mission planes, they have plenty of remaining bodies in the hangar and have the production line for more to be build.  But the real ASW will be based on tu-214 IMO.


    The Tu-214 is nice and all that but according to Kiko's post above it is planned to be equipped with four TV7-117 turboprop engines.
    Highly unlikely that they will fit those engines on a Tu-214 - besides it won't be a Tu-214 anymore after that little "conversion", now will it?. Wink

    Il-114 can be good as it is for the Black sea, Baltic sea or close protection of the cost around naval bases and launch kh-35 against plenty of targets.

    Quite right, but perhaps you should start to realize I am actually not talking about the IL-114 at all...think IL-1114 MAX, but I am not sure you can. dunno

    PS - The IL-114 is in production and in service as a passenger plane.

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    Post  Isos Sun Mar 05, 2023 5:57 pm

    I understand your point. What I disagree is that you make it sound like you just need to miltiply the il-114 by 1.5 and add 2 engines to get a Il-114MAX.


    That's not so easy.

    Il-112 isn't the same as il114 but is the same type and they still have lot of issues which means lot more money spent on.

    That's just an article. You can find similar about tu-214 for awacs and ASW versions. Nothing valuable until they sign contracts. Only speculation.

    Turboprop were generally used as ASW because they used to fly low in order to use their magnetometers. At low altitude turboprop are more fuel efficient than modern turbojets.

    But now the magnetometer isn't really needed. Their best tool for tracking subs are sonobuoy. That's why P-8 doesn't have a magnetometer anymore.

    At high altitudes their radar covers more area.

    P-8 also proves my point by having 11 hardpoints for various missiles.
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    Post  Mir Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:20 pm

    Isos wrote:I understand your point

    No you don't.

    But lets wait and see if anything comes from this.
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    Post  Mir Sun Mar 05, 2023 8:07 pm

    @Isos

    Can you identify the silhouette of this aircraft?

    I'll give you a hint - it's a Soviet design Smile

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    Post  ALAMO Sun Mar 05, 2023 8:29 pm

    Can I spoil this joke already? Laughing

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    Post  Mir Sun Mar 05, 2023 8:33 pm

    Nooooooo!!! affraid

    Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    Post  ALAMO Sun Mar 05, 2023 8:40 pm

    But you know that our pocket Napoleon reincarnation has no sense of humor, so he can feel kind of offended by the fact Laughing Laughing Laughing
    And you do know what comes after being offended, do you? Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    Post  Mir Sun Mar 05, 2023 8:41 pm

    Very true that! Smile

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    Post  Isos Sun Mar 05, 2023 9:44 pm

    Hahah. Very funny.

    Russia is still using mostly soviet designs. Most of 100% russian designs struggle getting in service. Even the il-112, a small turboprop ended with a huge problem or are full of western tech like Ssj-100.

    But yeah if random dudes Mir and Alamo said they can just double the size of the il-114 in few months that must be true.

    Again there are facts and there are wishful thinking of some guys on a forum. Get real man.

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