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    ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

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    Arrow


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    Post  Arrow Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:42 am

    The LA-class subs are old too, they need to replace them all. So is the entire Ohio fleet. Somehow I don't believe in those 80 nuclear submarines. Especially since the US is collapsing economically faster and faster. The surface fleet is aging at a very fast pace. So they also have a lot to do in the growing crisis and the collapse of the hegemony will be more and more difficult for them. Very Happy The Virginia has nothing to even compare with the 885M. Borey A also currently has no competitor in the world. Columbia will be established in a few years, as will the new Chinese SSBN.

    The worst thing is that the modernization of the 971 and 949A is slow. These ships could serve until 2040. Before they would build the right amounts of Laiky SSN.

    It will be hard to compete with Russia's China. It's a much bigger economy and demographic. Demographically, China is almost 10 times the size of Russia. There's no way to compete with them. You won't get over it.
    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Fri Mar 10, 2023 12:01 pm

    The infrastructure in American cities is collapsing, but the US plans a budget of 842 billion dollars for the military.
    Thats true...
    The construction of the Virginia class is definitely not going at the desired speed, but the construction is still going faster than is the case with the Russians.
    It is true that the Virginia is smaller than the Borei and Yasen submarines, but since 1999 (when the keel for the Virginia submarine was laid), 21 have been built and put into service, while two more have been launched.
    The reason for this is the two shipyards that build submarines, namely General Dynamics Electric Boat and Huntington Ingalls.
    Since December 29, 2012, the Russians have introduced 10 new nuclear submarines into service; 3 submarines 955 "Borei", 3 submarines 955A "Borei-A", one 885 "Yasen", two 885M "Yasen-M", as well as submarine K-329 "Belgorod" (project 09852). Two more submarines were launched, one 885M (on trials) and one 955A.

    It is true that the "Ohio" submarines must be replaced, but certainly fewer "Columbia" submarines will be built than was the case with the "Ohio" submarines, i.e. 12 instead of 18. It is clear that the US prioritized SSN/SSGN submarines.

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Fri Mar 10, 2023 12:42 pm

    As for these ASW planes, I have to write that the Russians are still unclear to me.
    The text says that the future aircraft will use turboprop engines, although the TV7-117 (mentioned by the Russian media) does not provide the desired characteristics. The Il-38 uses AI-20M engines, which have a maximum power of 4225 HP, while the most powerful variant of the TV7-117 turboprop engine does not exceed 3750 HP. This means that the Russians would have to build a smaller plane than the Il-38, whose maximum take-off weight is 66 to 68,000 kg.
    On the other hand, the maximum range is 7500 km, while the planned Il-276 should have a range of up to 7300 km and two PD-14M turbofan engines.
    The maximum permissible mass of that plane is 72 tons.
    Flight tests of the PD-14 engine have progressed much further than testing the TV7-117 on the ill-fated Il-112, so I think the best option for the Russians would be to simultaneously work on a "medium" size transport aircraft on the platform of which they would also get an ASW aircraft.
    The only "faster" variant is the construction of an anti-submarine aircraft, which is to use the platform of the Tu-204 aircraft.
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:43 pm

    @Podlodka77

    The Il-114-300 is an existing aircraft and already in production scratch

    It seems hard for some people to get their heads around the fact that the 4 engine IL-114 maritime patrol aircraft would be larger and more powerful than the current 2 engine IL-114 scratch

    The final product would very likely be similar in size to the P-3 Orion - and may even be somewhat larger. Btw the Il-114-300 as is not that much smaller than the P-3 and has the same wingspan - so its not exactly a small aircraft.

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:20 pm

    Sorry, but what you write about I highly doubt it can lead to a suitable ASW platform. The Il-114 aircraft has only 23.5 tons of the maximum permissible take-off weight and is certainly completely unsuitable for the ASW role. So again we are writing about a NEW platform. If the Russians want to replace the Il-38 aircraft with a new platform, then they must go for an aircraft whose mass exceeds 66+ tons, that is, the mass of the Il-38 aircraft. The proposed Il-276 aircraft has the largest mass of 72 tons, while the American P8 has over 80 tons.

    One should be realistic and take into account that a reliable ASW aircraft must have a long range (for the Il-38 it is about 7500 km), which cannot be achieved with a toy like the Il-114. The same applies to the payload and all the necessary electronic equipment. Russia has to go on an airplane whose mass exceeds 70 tons, everything else is nonsense.
    Even the 4 engines of the Il-114 are not powerful enough to propel an aircraft with a maximum permissible mass of 50 tons, let alone an aircraft with a mass of over 70 tons. The Russians also lost an Il-112 plane, so I would forget that story about turboprop engines and switch to PD-14 turbofan engines.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:39 pm

    Podlolka, probably you have missed it among all of the off topic about submarine production.
    3 days ago I posted

    (about the tragic accident on Il,-112v and the issues with the engine) Anyway that failure mode will be corrected and all the various versions of the engine (for the il-114, for the TVRS-44 and for the Mi-38) will be safe.

    I do not know if this will also cause delay in the development of the PDV-4000 (a 4000-5000 hp turboprop and turboshaft engine of new generation) which first prototype was planned to be build in 2025 according to what was announced in August 2020 and which will be perfect for the next generation of Russian military cargo planes (among the rest).

    https://www.aex.ru/m/news/2020/8/24/215969/

    This new engine should be a larger and more powerful evolution or derivative of the VK-2500 and TV7-117 engine family (4000-5000 hp vs 2500-3500 hp) and should also be the real successor of the Ivchenko AI-20 which was developed and manufactured in Zaporozhye.
    (Same power range of the C-130/C-27J engine)

    By the way the Chinese WJ6 engine used in the Y-9 military trasport aircraft (copy/derivative of the An-12) and on the amphibian AVIC AG600 is just a copy/derivative of the old soviet AI-20 (used on An-8, An-10, An-12, il-18, il-38, etc).

    So in theory according to the previous plan in 2 years there should be the first prototype of the new engine being tested of a new turboprop engine which will be on the same power range (or even a bit more powerful) than the old Ai-20.

    That means that before 2030 that engine should be in service.

    It is too late for an aircraft that needs to  enter service within the next 3 or 4 years, but maybe it could be used for an improved load and range version of that ASW aircraft.

    Unfortunately at the moment the TV7-117 is the only turboprop engine in more or less similar power range available.

    Neither the 4000 to 5000hp PDV-4000 or the  (more than 10000hp) turboprop derivative of the PD-8 will be in service   before at least 2028.

    Again from what we can understand Russia wants an aircraft capable of loitering efficienciently at much lower speed than a jet aircraft, thus they need a turboprop.

    Otherwise of course the Tu-214 would have been a good platform.

    And yes it is also possible that eventually a Naval patrol variant of the Tu-214 (or of the A-40) will be done, but to "integrate" what the new turboprop ASW offers in different operating conditions and with different requirements, not to replace it.

    Same relationship than the Il-38 and the Tu-142 had till now.

    Finally, no if it is a 4 engine aircraft, even if it is derived from it, it will have completely different payload and range than the il-114.
    As an example the 2 engined An-8 and 4 engined A po'.
    n-12 are not derived from each other but are similar and are a sort of parallel development. The An-12 has much higher MTOW (maximum takeoff weight), about 60tons against the about 40 tons MTOW of the An-8. It has also considerably larger fuel reserves, range and payload.

    How could you think that this new aircraft, if it is really a large 4 engine derivative of the il-114, will have the same payload and range than the Il-114?

    By the way it is also possible that the TV7-117 will be only the engine for prototypes and initial operation, while later will be introduced the PDV-4000 as the definitive engine.

    China did the same with their military transport aircraft y-20. They started with the 12 tons takeoff thrust D-30 engines and only 9 years after the first flight, when several aircrafts were already in service, they started flight test with the new engines that offered higher thrust (more than 14 tons)(and better efficiency), finally allowing the Y-20 (or at least the flight prototype) to meet its full range and payload capabilities.

    By the way, why should the MTOW of the new aircraft exceed the one of the Il-38?

    What it needs it is to meet the target payload and ranges.

    Furthermore modern engines should be more fuel efficient than the Ai-20 and modern electronics probably should weight less.

    So even an airplane with a MTOW between 32 and 40 tons would be perfectly ok.

    By the way the SAAB Swordfish MPA (based on a Bombardier Global 6000 business Jet) has a MTOW of around 45 tons. Is it crap just because it is less than 66 tons?

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Mar 11, 2023 3:49 am

    I wrote that in the best case, Russia will have 9 885/885M submarines in 2030, while all other submarines will have over 35 years of active service.
    That is a lot and replacing those submarines is important. Therefore, the fleet of SSN/SSGN submarines is rapidly aging and replacement of those submarines is NECESSARY.

    And what about the SSKs they are building too, the Kilos are better armed than many western SSNs, and are cheaper to make and operate and soon the Lada class will be even cheaper with half the manpower with the same or better fire power.

    The US has an entire planet to bully, Russia just needs enough to protect itself and its interests... the US dragging Russia into an Arms race only makes sense if you print your own money and that is already coming apart...

    The infrastructure in American cities is collapsing, but the US plans a budget of 842 billion dollars for the military.

    You say that like it means anything.

    The US fights corruption by trying to pump more money into the corrupt system than can be stolen, they could plan a budget of 1 trillion for all it matters, it just means all those military bases around the planet will suck more wealth and the very very rich owners of the US MIC will suck more wealth out of the US Taxpayer who will be told that there is no money for anything else... except if the banks need another bailout and then money will be found of course... Twisted Evil

    It is true that the "Ohio" submarines must be replaced, but certainly fewer "Columbia" submarines will be built than was the case with the "Ohio" submarines, i.e. 12 instead of 18. It is clear that the US prioritized SSN/SSGN submarines.

    The US put most of their nuclear deterrent into their subs and have their navy as a high priority because the country is surrounded by two major oceans.

    The fact that Kinzhal and Zircon would slaughter their surface fleet, they probably need as many subs as they can get.

    The text says that the future aircraft will use turboprop engines, although the TV7-117 (mentioned by the Russian media) does not provide the desired characteristics. The Il-38 uses AI-20M engines, which have a maximum power of 4225 HP, while the most powerful variant of the TV7-117 turboprop engine does not exceed 3750 HP. This means that the Russians would have to build a smaller plane than the Il-38, whose maximum take-off weight is 66 to 68,000 kg.

    The Il-114MP has an endurance of 10 hours which is pretty good so four 3,500hp engines is probably just fine, especially based on the Il-114 which as you point out is a smaller aircraft, but with a lengthened fuselage it can carry extra weight without massively increasing drag like a wider fuselage would do, and a bigger wing with four engines should make it a rather good modern platform.

    A replacement for the Il-38 doesn't need to be as big, because it will likely operate with HALE or MALE drones, and if they want longer ranged platforms they could develop a modification of another type to replace the Tu-142... or they could convert the Tu-142 with all new avionics and systems and continue using them for quite some time... in 10 years time the Tu-95s will be replaced by PAK DAs so they could be converted too...

    They could even use those huge engines for the Il-106 replacement for the An-22 and An-124 with lighter loads...

    A transport would not need high speed performance that the Bears use in their roles, so some sort of sophisticated prop fan layout to increase thrust for operating at higher weights and at lower top speeds would be a good trade off for a transport aircraft.

    Flight tests of the PD-14 engine have progressed much further than testing the TV7-117 on the ill-fated Il-112, so I think the best option for the Russians would be to simultaneously work on a "medium" size transport aircraft on the platform of which they would also get an ASW aircraft.

    Transport planes are better when they are fat because it means larger internal loads are possible (I don't mean heavier when I say larger, I mean bulkier).

    For an ASW aircraft internal volume is not critical... you can make them longer to fit more in... a smaller fuselage means less drag and therefore better speed at a lower throttle setting which is good for low speed cruising and endurance, which is as important as range for a hunter like an ASW aircraft.

    The only "faster" variant is the construction of an anti-submarine aircraft, which is to use the platform of the Tu-204 aircraft.

    Not faster because current Tu-204 production will likely go to Russian airlines to help replace western types, but just because they might use the Il-114 for an Il-38 replacement that does not mean they wont use the Tu-204 and its many variants to replace all the obsolete aircraft their military currently use like the Tu-134 and Tu-154M and of course the Il-20s and Yak-40s etc etc.

    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Sat Mar 11, 2023 8:17 am

    To Garry

    Garry, the Russian Navy will be even smaller than it is now, and remember these words of mine.
    I'm sorry to have to write this but a special military operation will FURTHER reduce the already poor results of the construction.
    The construction of 955A "Borei" submarines should NEVER have been a priority for Russia in relation to SSN/SSGN submarines, especially since Russia already has most of its strategic missiles in the RVSN - the land-based component.

    The project 636.3 submarines are a temporary solution, and the proof of that is the project 677 submarines. It is true that the project 636.3 submarines are better armed than the non-nuclear submarines of other countries. However, as far as AIP drives are concerned, it's a never-ending discussion.
    The whole point of my writing is that the priority is to replace the project 971 and 945A submarines because the BASIS of the Russian Navy was in its SSN/SSGN submarines.
    If someone thinks that the result of 9 submarines of the 885/885M project, or how many could be operational by 2030 in the best case, is an extraordinary result, I write that it is nonsense because Russia currently has 24 SSN/SSGN submarines and all submarines except the "Gepard" submarine will have 35 years of active service in 2030. It is a catastrophic data.
    It's the Submarine Cemetery Garry, the cemetery.
    Russia should not allow itself to get into this position with SSN/SSGN submarines. Therefore, in 2030, Russia will have 8 to 9 submarines of project 885/885M (due to the submarine "Ulyanovsk") and 2 to 3 submarines 09852 and 09851 of the project, i.e. "Poseidon" carriers).
    So yes, the submarine construction figures look impressive although the FACT is that the Russian SSN/SSGN submarine fleet is rapidly aging and a further reduction from the current number of 24 is IMMINENT.

    Garry, we are not small children and don't write to me about the Il-114 RC plane. That toy has a maximum weight of 23.5 tons and is a twin-engine airplane, which means that even a four-engine variant would not have enough engine thrust for an airplane with a maximum take-off weight of up to 50 tons. The Il-38N aircraft was designed more than half a century ago and it is an aircraft with the highest permissible take-off weight of over 66 tons. An anti-submarine aircraft has to be "massive" for a reason to carry all the appropriate equipment, as well as have adequate range and maximum payload. If Russia is a serious country, then Russia must build an ASW aircraft with a mass of over 70 tons.


    Although, the reality is that Russia can no longer be in the same "rank" with China and the USA, and the reason is money. And of course, the first victim is the navy.
    Russia is not serious about its navy and anyone who writes otherwise is denying the facts;

    * the modernization of submarines 971 to project 971M and the modernization of submarines 949A to 949AM has been going on for more than 10 fucking years and still none of those submarines are active.

    * absolute negligence and likely lack of funding will lead to a further decline in SSN/SSGN submarines which will turn the Russian Navy into a hunting society at sea compared to the US and China.

    * a country with over 150 million inhabitants, i.e. Russia is obviously not able to serially produce frigates with a displacement of barely 5000+ tons, while the Italians and French are building larger frigates and at an incomparably faster speed.

    * Modernization of the cruiser "Nakhimov" lasts over 10 years. The horror!


    As for the USA, I wrote what I think, that is, that most of the infrastructure in the USA is falling apart, while the top government of that country is spending money on weapons.
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Sat Mar 11, 2023 10:09 am

    Podlodka77 wrote:Sorry, but what you write about I highly doubt it can lead to a suitable ASW platform. The Il-114 aircraft has only 23.5 tons of the maximum permissible take-off weight and is certainly completely unsuitable for the ASW role.

    There is something wrong in your sentence above. Can you spot your mistake?

    I normally don't write long pieces but you seem to have missed the second sentence in my post. My post is only 3 sentences long. Rolling Eyes

    But anyway you have a problem with the Il-114 and there is nothing I can do about it. You should rather take your issue up with MOD.

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Sat Mar 11, 2023 10:32 am

    Podlodka77 wrote:The Il-38N aircraft was designed more than half a century ago

    Very good point!

    The very best "mini" computer at the time when the Il-38 made it's first flight weighed 490 kg and had a "mass storage drum" with the mind blowing capacity of...less than 1 megabyte. Price? An eye watering $65 000.

    Today you can buy a top rated Macbook Air for just over $1000 and it weighs 1.24 kg. Now I'm sure we don't have to compare specs here Laughing

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sat Mar 11, 2023 10:41 am

    Just a couple of notes:


    The AI-20 on the Il-38 has a takeoff power of about 4200 hp.

    The old version of the tv7-117 had a takeoff power of about 2500 hp

    According to this communication from rostec from December 2020

    https://rostec.ru/en/news/second-il-114-300-will-take-off-in-2021-with-an-updated-airframe/

    The first prototype Il-114-300 is equipped with the latest version of the TV7-117ST-01 turboprop engines, which have a takeoff power of up to 3100 hp.
    Other sources mention something a bit less (e.g. 2900 hp), but the difference is not so big as with the previous version.


    That means that the difference between the engine power is not as big as you mentioned. (It is about 3/4 of the power of the AI-20)

    By the way, the takeoff specif fuel consumption (SFC) of the AI-20 should be around 240g/hp/h, while the TV7-117 is around: 199 g/hp/hr (takeoff).

    Basically the new engine it is about  20%more efficient. I do not have the values for cruise SFC for the TV-117, but I can imagine that the percentage difference between the two engines at cruise will be similar to that of takeoff SFC.

    By the way, yes the fuel capacity of the il-114 is around 9000 litres, less than one third than that of the il-38.
    It is absolutely normal as it is a regional aircraft and it does not need to fly that long.
    Of course the new aircraft will have much more than that.
    Furthermore if needed a long range version of the base il-114 could be made as well.

    Until we see more data on the new planned aircraft we can only speculate, however.

    By the way the MTOW of the Beriev A-40 is 86 tons and then one of the TU-214 is around 110 tons.
    When Russia deems it needs those kind of sizes in a jet aircraft, they already have the platform ready.

    Anyway I agree with, the considerations from Mir about electronic weight.
    If we add this with the need of much less fuel because of more efficient engines (and again if the aircraft is a bit smaller because the new electronic does not need to be that large and heavy you will also need less fuel), means that a 35 to 40 tons aircraft can do the job equally or better than an old 70 tons aircraft.
    And again the Saab Swordfish is just 45 tons.

    Furthermore the Tu-142 is also in service with the Russian navy as ASW aircraft. Its MTOW is about 185 tons, more than double of the P8 Poseidon.

    Russia wants both a larger and faster aircraft like the Tu-142 and a smaller platform (possibly to be used closer to the coasts, like this turboprop).

    Other countries instead only have one platform, so they need something like one size feats all, even if it means compromising in both ends.
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    Post  Isos Sat Mar 11, 2023 11:27 am

    They have presented lot of project for il-114. An awacs, an EW and two ASW including one equiped with kh-35. But I doubt it is intersting russian navy. That's good for smaller navies.


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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Sat Mar 11, 2023 12:46 pm

    @Isos

    But I doubt it is intersting russian navy.

    Very good! At least you are getting that bit right. Well done! cheers
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    Post  Podlodka77 Sat Mar 11, 2023 1:40 pm

    To Mir..

    @Podlodka77

    The Il-114-300 is an existing aircraft and already in production scratch

    It seems hard for some people to get their heads around the fact that the 4 engine IL-114 maritime patrol aircraft would be larger and more powerful than the current 2 engine IL-114 scratch
    The final product would very likely be similar in size to the P-3 Orion - and may even be somewhat larger. Btw the Il-114-300 as is not that much smaller than the P-3 and has the same wingspan - so its not exactly a small aircraft.


    I wrote to you that the 4 engines from the Il-114 aircraft (the maximum permissible take-off weight is 23.5 tons) do not have enough thrust to propel an aircraft weighing up to 50 tons, let alone a significantly more serious platform like the Il-38 which has over 66 tons.
    The Russians have already lost the Il-112, which means that a potential four-engine turboprop aircraft, which must have SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful engines than the twin-engine Il-112, is out of sight.
    So if it is not clear to you, I will write you briefly; Russia currently does not have turboprop engines capable of powering an aircraft over 60 tons, although it is desirable for Russia to build a larger aircraft than the Il-38.

    However, considering that no new platform has reached serial production (except the Su-57), I do not think that the development of an ASW aircraft and its serial production will happen before second half of the next decade - at best. There is no news for the Il-112, there is even more silence for the Il-276.
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    Post  Mir Sat Mar 11, 2023 2:41 pm

    @Podlodka77  

    I wrote to you that the 4 engines from the Il-114 aircraft (the maximum permissible take-off weight is 23.5 tons) do not have enough thrust to propel an aircraft weighing up to 50 tons, let alone a significantly more serious platform like the Il-38 which has over 66 tons.

    EDIT - I complete misunderstood your post there for a second Pods but you should understand that this particular engine is in the process of being refined and up-rated.

    You should also take note that aircraft design has developed significantly since the early 60's. Composite materials are very common these days. They are stronger than metal sheets yet so much lighter.

    As I've pointed out before - not only the type of construction material gets lighter and improved but the electronics as well. It will also likely be manned by a much reduced crew due to automation and real time network streaming. These things make a huge performance difference in the end.

    The Russians have already lost the Il-112, which means that a potential four-engine turboprop aircraft, which must have SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful engines than the twin-engine Il-112, is out of sight.

    You do know that the IL-112 did not fall out of the sky because the engine was not powerful enough to keep it in the air - don't you?!
    Just to remind you there was a fire in one of the engines. So your point here makes no sense and we know as we speak that they are developing more powerful engines anyway - just to be clear.

    I will write you briefly; Russia currently does not have turboprop engines capable of powering an aircraft over 60 tons, although it is desirable for Russia to build a larger aircraft than the Il-38.

    As mentioned above - there are a good couple of different turboprops under development that would be more than capable to keep anything above 60 tons in the air. Nevertheless the requirement is NOT for a 60+ ton aircraft at all.

    Why would they want to build an aircraft larger than the Il-38 - they already have the Tu-142 that can stick around for years to come?
    I'm pretty sure it will be similar in size to the P-3 which is quite a bit smaller than the Il-38.

    However, considering that no new platform has reached serial production (except the Su-57), I do not think that the development of an ASW aircraft and its serial production will happen before second half of the next decade - at best.

    You forgot about the Yak-130 and the Mi-38 is also in serial production as well - and don't forget the Il-114. Wink
    The IL-114 ASW aircraft should be a top priority - and in my opinion a decade late! Smile
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    Post  flamming_python Sun Mar 12, 2023 1:00 am

    Very good! At least you are getting that bit right. Well done! cheers

    IIRC one of the reasons for restarting Il-114 production (and in Russia itself not Uzbekistan), was exactly to have a platform some government and military variants, including naval use

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    Post  GarryB Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:55 am

    Garry, we are not small children and don't write to me about the Il-114 RC plane. That toy has a maximum weight of 23.5 tons and is a twin-engine airplane, which means that even a four-engine variant would not have enough engine thrust for an airplane with a maximum take-off weight of up to 50 tons.

    They already made the Il-114MP, it was not accepted AFAIK because its range was too short but its endurance of 10 hours in the air on patrol which is ONE hour less than the Il-38 can currently manage with its 11 hour endurance, so the toy plane before modification is almost able to match the endurance of an aircraft three times heavier than it is at about 66 tons MTOW.

    An enlarged Il-114... what ever they might decide to call it... with four rather more powerful upgraded engines should be able to blow the Il-38 out of the water in terms of endurance at the very least.

    A power increase of maybe 750hp per engine would give it the same engine thrust the AI-20M engines of the Il-38 have at 4,250hp, which would mainly be used for takeoff... flying around at top speed is not something MPAs do very much because 500km per hour is good enough most of the time... the most powerful versions of the engines used by the Il-114 are 3,500hp, while the standard engines on the Il-114P are 2,750hp each.


    I wrote to you that the 4 engines from the Il-114 aircraft (the maximum permissible take-off weight is 23.5 tons) do not have enough thrust to propel an aircraft weighing up to 50 tons, let alone a significantly more serious platform like the Il-38 which has over 66 tons.

    they have said their new MPA aircraft to replace the Il-38 will have four engines... they did not specify which four engines they would be and it has already been mentioned that new 4-5,000hp engines are being developed too... not to mention if they were really pushed they have the engines of the Bear at 15,000 hp they could use if they wanted too.

    Issues like the length of the blades being a problem could be solved... the 4m blades are needed for very high subsonic flight speeds so a new propeller with 8 blades on the front fan and perhaps 10 blades on the rear fan could absorb all that engine power and provide enormous thrust at lower flight speeds where needed.

    They have not released very much concrete information which leaves things open to speculation... suffice to say they are talking about a replacement for the Il-38 May... for which we should be thankful... it was a good aircraft but in need of replacing now.

    All those other complaints about lack of submarines, so what... you are upset... big deal.

    Russia needs surface ships that can protect their merchant fleet and the fleets of their allies to ensure uninterrupted trade with Russia.

    Submarines are not that useful in that regard... they are most effective when they are not seen and most effective when sinking ships... which is an act of war which makes their use as limiting as the use of nuclear weapons.

    You should have them but hope to never have to use them.

    In comparison even a corvette can fire a burst of 30mm cannon shells into the water to scare away western ships up to no good.

    What western frigate or destroyer will mess with a Russian Corvette that might be carrying Onyx or Zircon...

    The Russians have already lost the Il-112, which means that a potential four-engine turboprop aircraft, which must have SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful engines than the twin-engine Il-112, is out of sight.

    The Il-112V is moving forward and has not been cancelled because it is required to replace several obsolete Antonovs in Russian military service.

    The Russians are getting near to completing development of a 5,000hp turboprop engine and they also make the engines for Bear bombers that are 15,000hp.

    They also had the NK-93 ducted fan design that Kuznetsov was supposed to be reviving in 2014, and a range of other engine types based on PD types could be used as the core of a turboprop engine or propfan variant.

    IIRC one of the reasons for restarting Il-114 production (and in Russia itself not Uzbekistan), was exactly to have a platform some government and military variants, including naval use

    The Il-114 and Il-112 will replace quite a few obsolete light aircraft, but they wont replace everything with them either.

    I rather suspect they will replace the larger types like the Il-20/22 and Tu-154M and Yak-40 types with heavier aircraft too... they now have Tu-204 and variants in mass production filling gaps in airlines in Russia to replace western types, but once they are finished and the Super Jet and MS-21s are in full production and can replace the Tupolevs it is rather likely they might sell them to the Russian military to convert to military types and also start work on the Tu-330 transport plane based on those aircraft. A 35 ton payload capacity aircraft would be rather useful in Russia and around the world...

    Most of the issues centre around getting the engines ready and mature for use in aircraft and a brand new modern engine and make an old airframe almost as good as a brand new design.

    They even managed to improve the Yak-40s performance by using a composite wing.... as composites become more affordable and accessible things are going to improve even for older aircraft types.

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    Post  Isos Sun Mar 12, 2023 6:14 pm

    Mir wrote:
    Very good! At least you are getting that bit right. Well done

    That could change with the Ukro war. Having smaller Awacs may be valuable. A-50U aren't flying enough and are much more costly. They would also benefit a lot of the EW il-114 to jamm enemy for hours.

    The ASW isn't really bringing anything. Kh-35 can be used from sukhois or il-38 and they have enough ASW plateforms to look for subs and planes to look for ships.

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    Post  Mir Sun Mar 12, 2023 6:44 pm

    That is indeed a very valid point but I feel that all these roles than you mention would be taken over by UAV's in the near future.

    The A-100 would then act as a mother ship, but this "mother ship" role would also include large ships and ground based radar and command stations (retro Soviet PVO style back in business Cool ).
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    Post  Isos Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:11 pm

    Wet dream. Drones lacks power for EW and Awacs roles and for such roles you still need humans.

    Il 114 is perfect for such things.
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    Post  Mir Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:42 am

    You still live in the Dark Ages bro! Laughing

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    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:12 am

    The Russians have a lot of old planes they are in the process of retiring and they have some new planes... most of which their problems revolve around getting new engines for, which is no real surprise... any tiny country can design a reasonable aircraft, but far fewer countries make decent engines.

    The engines are taking the longest but once they are ready for serial production getting the aircraft right is the simple part of the equation.

    For some aircraft categories an existing new type is being developed... the Il-112 and Il-114 and Baikal and the Let types they are making fill most of the smaller aircraft.

    The Russian Navy has announced a new aircraft without saying anything else really, that will have four turboprop engines to replace the May.

    We assume it will be an enlarged Il-114 but have the navy actually mentioned that?

    Is there another Il-38 sized aircraft it might be?

    There was talk about putting D-27 engines with propfans as used by the An-70 on the A-42... two of them, which was supposed to extend flight range from just less than the Il-38s flight range of about 6,500km to just over 9,500km, but obviously were they expecting to use Ukrainian engines or are they making them in Russia... who knows.

    Very simply we are all guessing, but LSOS, your reasons for rejecting our guesses don't make sense... Russia and most aircraft making countries have histories of taking aircraft designs and reshaping them with more engines to change their performance category with the minimum of fuss and time and effort...

    It can often turn an OK aircraft into an excellent one...

    In fact even going the other way can make a huge difference too... the Il-96 is a good aircraft and if PD-35s can be reliable and efficient and two can be used to replace the existing four engines then such a change could transform the aircraft into something that is much better in terms of maintenance and operational costs and performance.

    The point is that Russia needs to update its naval aircraft... it will be showing us new helicopters shortly I suspect for their new helicopter carriers, and I hope they adapt the Mi-38 to a naval role the same way they adapted the Mi-8 to create the Mi-14.

    They will need manned aircraft to work with drones at least to start with but Drones are good for long range search and monitoring roles.... a single Tu-142 could operate with 6 to 8 HALEs to cover rather more territory than any manned aircraft could cover for the price, and do so more efficiently... they could even operate airships to relay things to subs where the airships could deploy antenna cables 5km long that simply hang down straight forming an antenna for Ultra low frequency communications to talk to deeply submerged subs or even ocean floor facilities with nuclear batteries that recharge SSKs in friendly waters without the need for AIP...

    Perhaps a variant of the Poseidon drone with nuclear propulsion meets an SSK at a designated point and time and charges the batteries on the SSK so it can remain submerged and silent and still for 5 hours getting a charge from a drone and then continue quiet operations...

    The future for the Russian Navy is bright... they just have to sort out some problems in some areas... maybe Putin should send Rogozin... Twisted Evil
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    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:17 am

    You still live in the Dark Ages bro!

    US manned platforms are horrendously expensive, so unmanned platforms make more sense for them.

    But also as we have seen in Ukraine the larger drones are sitting ducks to modern air defences, the smaller cheaper disposable ones make sense, but big expensive HALES and MALES are not much good inside a conflict zone most of the time as they would be quickly cleaned up.

    Obviously a current Bear or May wouldn't last long either but new self defence AAMs for PAK DA and other bombers and heavy aircraft could be used to shoot down incoming AAMs and SAMs... and airships operating at very high altitudes are actually a problem to shoot down.

    (not like the balloons over the US which just needed one hit to bring down... a rigid airship with thousands of bags of hydrogen where you would need to rip into most of them to get the airship to descend would be harder to "kill".)

    I think a mix of drones and manned aircraft or airships would make the most sense and offer the best mix of coverage and cost and survivability...

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