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    ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

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    Gazputin

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    Post  Gazputin on Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:50 am

    by the time the Il-114 is in production the demand for civil versions will be pretty high …. ditto Il-112
    add to that the pressure on Klimov to make the engines for Il-114 and the Il-112 …. and Mil-38 …. and spares
    you won't see many "spare" production slots for at least 5 years … in either aircraft

    and Tupolev …. doesn't have a huge amount of work on …. and is ready to go now
    and Tu-214 makes a lot of sense given its range and the size of Russia

    you can't just switch factories on-and-off …. they need steady churn to operate efficiently

    what does a "perfect" ASW aircraft look like ? … I don't think anyone on Earth has the faintest idea to be honest …
    most of NATO are buying 737s …. and lets face it a stretched 737 is more or less a 757 … and the Tu-214 is basically a 757
    so why not ….

    but you can't use MAD apparently …. jet flies too fast and too high ? apparently









    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:50 am

    But the point is that you don't have to use just one platform... a Tu-214 could cover the airspace while STOVL or amphibious drones could land on the water and lower dipping sonars and transmit their data up to a nearby Tu-214 for processing and launching weapons to attack targets found... any one of the drones could carry MAD equipment too.

    Disposable sonobouys are expensive and not usually recoverable... a dozen amphibious drones that land and lower dipping sonar could be reusable and also be able to look under layers which normal sonobouys can't... they could even motorboat to different positions to drop dipping sonars accurately in specific positions as needed...

    Could have another Tu-214 there as an inflight refuelling plane that drones can line up behind to refuel as needed... wing tip hoses and one from the rear of the tail to refuel three at a time...

    An MPA aircraft based on the Il-114 could be used for coastal defence looking for enemy divers and submarines operating near Russian waters...
    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:31 am

    Be-200 would be great. Can also land on water.

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    Unrelated, but nice pic.
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    hoom

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    Post  hoom on Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:38 am

    IMO Il-114 is a good candidate, much of Russias ASW need is near coast: Baltic, Black Sea, East Med, Sea of Okhotsk/Japan, Barents/Kara  sea.


    Problem with jets is economy at low altitude, presumably can take low altitude passes when they're fairly close to a possible target but they can't efficiently cruise around at low speed & altitude like a turboprop can.
    They're good for getting on-station quickly for longer range stuff though & arguably a lot of the closer to shore work can be done with UAVs now.


    I do like use of a standard airliner airframe though in terms of standardisation, I'd quite like to see them do a big build based on one airframe for stuff: tanker, ASW, ELINT, AEW etc. like US uses 707s for everything but build it off a modern airframe with efficient engines.
    Ideally something newer than Tu-214 though, more like Sukhoi SSJ or even MS-21, yes they have early orders but they're not all that huge & a big military order can help prop up the order books.
    And while avoiding sanctions on 'dual use' equipment might have been a reason to avoid that originally, its not anymore since US has been busy sanctioning MS-21 on behalf of Boeing because of *insert reason-of-the-day* already & they're having to replace imported stuff (that was being used to speed up certification) with domestic equipment anyway.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:07 am

    IMO Il-114 is a good candidate, much of Russias ASW need is near coast: Baltic, Black Sea, East Med, Sea of Okhotsk/Japan, Barents/Kara sea.

    With the increasing range of ship and sub launched cruise missiles, their need is bigger. And if they want to support their navy around japan which is not that close from Russia, black sea (1000km to the bosphorus) and protect the northern fleet (and their part of arctic) which is a huge area, they will need a plane that can patrol for hours 3000km away from the mainland.

    IFR should be implemented since the begining too.

    Tu 114 should be a less important plane bought to patrol immediate zones so that the don't use a bigger ASW plane for such role.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:40 am

    A-42 'Albatros' seaplane project to be restarted according to a Izvestia report....apparently negotiations are in the final stage. Initially they're talking about 3 aircraft.


    ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy: - Page 11 TASS-217807 ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy: - Page 11 1114772


    (summary)
    The Navy will get the world's largest amphibious aircraft A-42 "Albatross". Its development was suspended in 1993. Now it's been decided to modernize and adopt. Giant flying boats have unique fighting qualities. The aircraft will be able to detect and for a long time keep track of nuclear submarines, they can also be used for rescue operations even during a storm. A-42 will receive the latest avionics, weapons will be improved depth charges and torpedoes.

    To expand the combat capabilities of the A-42 will be improved. The aircraft will be fitted with a radar search system, including surveillance and targeting radars, heat-TV equipment, flight and navigation complex, which includes equipment for measuring parameters of sea waves and new onboard communication. Also there is the option of equipping two amphibians with D-27 engines, which will increase the range of up to 9.3 thousand km. in addition, it will be equipped with the system of refueling in the air.

    https://iz.ru/911054/aleksei-kozachenko-aleksei-ramm/spasti-i-unichtozhit-vmf-poluchit-universalnyi-samolet-amfibiiu
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:58 am

    AFAIK they had D-30 engines, the same used on the Il-76, that produced 14 tons of thrust, which required secondary 2 ton thrust booster engines for each engine to get airborne in a timely manner.

    PD-16 or even better PD-18 engines would be ideal to replace all four original engines with suitable power to operate the aircraft efficiently and safely.

    I doubt they will need dozens of these aircraft but 10-12 would be useful in specific regions where landing on water could be useful.

    Most of the time they wont need to land so an aircraft like a Tu-214 or similar would be cheaper to operate as it would not be dipping itself in salt water all the time and have a more aerodynamic shape.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:35 am

    They can operate in areas without airfields. Also one of their main missions will probably be SAR...probably could be used in fire fighting as well
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:03 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:A-42 'Albatros' seaplane project to be restarted according to a Izvestia report....apparently negotiations are in the final stage. Initially they're talking about 3 aircraft. ....

    With what purpose? So they would have another limited edition aircraft to waste time and money on which will be as useless as almost everything else they made in limited numbers?

    Why not just use Tu-214 for this?

    It works, it's​ tested and they already paid for development.

    How many more dead ends and boutique products?
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    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:47 pm

    They should work only on an arctic version where there is no airfields for normal planes. Would be good for hunting US boomers that popup through the ice and refuel military bases that are far away without the need of creating expensive runways.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:49 am

    They were talking about upgrading their Mails so they clearly thing amphibious aircraft are useful for certain missions and purposes, so they want a follow on aircraft.

    Personally I would think an anti sub aircraft that can land on the water surface and drop a dipping sonar and directly search for targets itself would be an advantage... a dipping sonar can be much more sophisticated and sensitive than a dropped sonobouy that is essentially used once and left to be scooped up by enemy intel and examined...

    They are making Be-200s in reasonable numbers, so a few Be-40s wont hurt... it is not like the factory makes anything else and can't spare the time and further work on the aircraft might lead to further improvements.

    New engine options offer interesting potential for near future models too that could be lighter or heavier, but certainly cheaper and simpler.

    They should work only on an arctic version where there is no airfields for normal planes. Would be good for hunting US boomers that popup through the ice and refuel military bases that are far away without the need of creating expensive runways.

    Well if they could develop a retractable skirt then they could do away with wheeled undercarriage and go with hovercraft landing gear that would allow them to land on water or mud or snow or practically any reasonably flat surface...
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:35 am

    And also, the Chinese are building an amphibious airplane larger than the Be-200. Restarting production of a modernised A-40/Be-42 will put Russia again on the top of the larger amphibian in production!

    Anyway the Be-42 and a naval patrol version of the Tu-214 will be different aircrafts with different scopes, but they could have some equipment and sensor in common and the same engines.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:59 am

    What they need to do is look over their history and experience with Mails and decide whether having an amphibious aircraft that can operate without airfields is useful or not... and in some situations its unique capability to land on the water can be invaluable... for instance a land based aircraft performing a search out in deep water has to return to land to refuel... with an amphibious aircraft you could send a refuelling ship to the centre of the search area and when your amphibious aircraft aircraft are running low on fuel they can land and pump fuel on board and then take off and continue the search.

    The A-42 is not a short range aircraft... it is quite big and has jet aircraft speed so it can fly to search areas at 800km/h and should be able to loiter for hours... I seem to remember its original range was something like 6,000km, and with local fuel supplies it could keep on station for quite some time... which would also apply for hunting submarines.

    Someone on a yacht has heart trouble and needs to be lifted off the boat and taken to hospital... an amphibious jet is much faster than any kind of helicopter.

    Accident at sea and it could be there first even if it just drops supplies or a life raft or equipment.... being able to land and recover people and fly them back to land... but of course such capabilities sound nice... but how often has it actually happened and how likely is it to happen in the future and therefore how much money should be invested in capabilities that might never actually be needed.

    Sounds like they are ordering some aircraft and I don't think it is because of pride.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:03 am

    GarryB wrote:The A-42 is not a short range aircraft... it is quite big and has jet aircraft speed so it can fly to search areas at 800km/h and should  be able to loiter for hours...

    They'll apparently have an aerial refueling capability as well
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:30 am

    Which would be interesting... hang a few heavy external fuel tanks under the wings and fill the insides up with fuel and it could support smaller aircraft in fairly remote areas... the cheapest way to move fuel is by ship which can carry enormous amounts of fuel but obviously getting it to conventional aircraft in flight is a problem... having a tanker aircraft that can operate in a region of water where it can take off and top up any aircraft flying past or land and refuel itself... that is an interesting capability that could prove useful in some situations...
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:08 am


    Model of Il-114 ASW aircraft from MAKS 2019 (Not Luftwaffe !!!)

    ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy: - Page 11 Y_0jvdCW3Oo



    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:27 am

    PapaDragon wrote: (Not Luftwaffe !!!)[/img]

    For a second that's exactly what I thought Very Happy



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    Post  Isos on Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:34 am

    That sucks. They have one variant with harpoints for kh-35 that is more needed than this unarmed version. It's the MPA.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:02 am

    Woudn't take much to add a couple of outer wing pylons clear of the prop blades for Kh-35s and Kh-31s... and probably the odd APR-3ME...
    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:40 am

    Isos wrote:That sucks. They have one variant with harpoints for kh-35 that is more needed than this unarmed version. It's the MPA.

    I think they will have an internal bay for torpedoes, rockets and bombs

    _____

    Russia links maritime patrol aircraft to UAV

    Russian maritime patrol aircraft (MPAs) are being equipped with datalinks to enable them to receive targeting feeds from unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).

    The aim of the upgrade is to enable Russian Naval Aviation Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) Forpost UAVs to directly communicate with airborne Tupolev Tu-142MZ/MR ('Bear F/J') turboprop MPAs of the Northern Fleet, Izvestia newspaper reported on 8 October.

    According to Russian naval officials quoted by Izvestia, the data networking capability is likely to be incorporated in other Naval Aviation MPAs, including the Beriev Be-12 Chaika ('Mail') and future UAVs, such as the Sukhoi S-70 Okhotnik, Sokol Altius, and Kronstadt Technologies Orion E.

    https://www.janes.com/article/91852/russia-links-maritime-patrol-aircraft-to-uav
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:45 am

    S-70s can carry Kh-31 and Kh-35 missiles if needed for the naval role, but I would be rather surprised if the new MPAs can't carry wing mounted equipment... even just navigation and targeting pods...
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    Post  George1 on Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:56 am

    Another anti-submarine aircraft Tu-142M3 of the Naval Aviation of the Russian Navy underwent repair

    As reported by United Aircraft Corporation PJSC (UAC), its member PJSC Taganrog Aviation Scientific and Technical Complex named after G.M. Berieva ”(“ TANTK named after GM Beriev ”) continues work on scheduled repairs of long-range anti-submarine aircraft of the Tu-142 family of the Naval Aviation of the Russian Navy.

    On December 12, 2019, the Tu-142MZ long-range anti-submarine aircraft repaired at the enterprise was handed over to the Naval Aviation of the Russian Navy (tail number “64 red”). After passing all the necessary tests, the Tu-142MZ was handed over to the aircraft crew of the Red Banner Pacific Fleet and successfully flew to its permanent base.


    On the bmpd side, we indicate that this side was the first anti-submarine aircraft of the Tu-142 family, delivered by TANTK im. G.M. Berieva "after repair in 2019. In 2018, the Northern Fleet aviation commissioned two repairs at the enterprise of the Tu-142MK aircraft (tail numbers "54" and "97").


    ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy: - Page 11 123
    ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy: - Page 11 219
    Past repairs at PJSC Taganrog Aviation Scientific and Technical Complex named after G.M. Beriev "long-range anti-submarine aircraft Tu-142MZ (tail number" 64 red ") aircraft of the Pacific Fleet. Taganrog, 2019 (c) PJSC United Aircraft Corporation

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3882735.html
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:56 am

    Illiouchine loses to tupolev for new ASW aircraft.

    https://iz.ru/export/google/amp/959175?__twitter_impression=true

    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    ·
    38 min
    Russia will develop a new ASW aircraft based off the Tu-204/214 aircraft. Currently, Russia's Naval Aviation has 3 fixed-wing ASW platforms: the Be-12, Il-38 (about 15 in service, including 8 upgraded Il-38N), and Tu-142 (no more than 24 in service).


    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    ·
    37 min
    Russia's Naval Aviation, especially its maritime patrol/ASW aircraft, are a relative weakness, and adopting the Tu-204 is a cost-effective solution (>30 Tu-204/214 are currently in storage). Russian experts compared the Tu-204 ASW option to the US P-8 Poseidon based on the 737.2/
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:14 am

    Isos wrote:Illiouchine loses to tupolev for new ASW aircraft.

    Id say a common sense won. Tu-204/214 is a proven frame. With 100% Russian avionics is safe to build and with longer range.

    OK those data are are not for specific ASW version but just to provide with differences wrt range/payload.


    Tu-204-300 range : 5920km, payload: 18,000kg

    Il-114: range 2000km, payload 6,500kg



    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D1%83-204

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%98%D0%BB-114
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:36 am

    Isos wrote:Illiouchine loses to tupolev for new ASW aircraft.

    It wasn't even a contest really, Tu-204 is not only fully mature platform but also surpasses Il-114 on every single parameter

    They aren't even in the same category, like comparing RAW-4 with Hilux


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