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    Mistral News thread

    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:54 pm

    type055 wrote:I heard some news from china website, china buy Pomornik-class Large LCAC from  Ukraine, but this LCAC  made in Crimea. russian says  we need pay them, it make china confused ,cos Ukraine and russia both are our friends ~ Shocked    hard choice dunno

    Obviously your government is not you. China recognized Crimea as part of Russia. As well, your deals with Ukraine are nearly nothing compared to Russia. Whoch makese think your not Chinese or not living in China.
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    Post  par far Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:24 pm

    What will Russia do of it does not get the Mistrals? Can Russia build its own?
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    Post  sepheronx Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:17 pm

    par far wrote:What will Russia do of it does not get the Mistrals? Can Russia build its own?

    Yeah, why not? Just means they will have to spend more money to design one. Mistral is small compared to the aircraft carrier they did for India. Difference is, they will need a new design. BTW, part of the Mistral was made in Russia, and the other part was made in France, where the two parts combined.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:51 am

    Russia already built half of these vessels and at the same speed the French built them.

    As the French once described them... they are helicopter barges and not that hard to build... the important parts are the NATO electronics, which the Russians only wanted on one vessel... they will fit the rest with their own Sigma system.

    They aren't even buying French aircraft or weapon systems for the vessels... Russian aircraft and weapons will be used.

    If the French don't sell then Russia should get its money back, but also half of both vessels were built in Russia so France would have to pay Russia for those components they produced and of course there will be penalties for not supplying the product paid for etc.

    If France don't sell the Mistrals then it makes little sense to try to buy something similar from someone else now that they have had full ToT... they can just further modify the design to suit their needs and build it themselves...
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    Mistral News thread - Page 23 Empty Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  higurashihougi Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:34 am

    As far as I know, Mistral contract is the compensation for France. After Soyuz had defeated Ariane in the Gallieo project, Russia agreed to buy French Mistral so that France can still gain some money after the defeat of Ariane.

    Russia also want some information in the design of Mistral. But some people commented that Mistral belongs to the class of "2nd-rate ferry of Manche", not "1st-rate ferry of Baltics", therefore the techs in Mistral are not something very special.

    That is the reason why these Russian Mistrals have much higher price than the original Mistrals. Actually, many Russian people had protested against the Mistral contract.

    And as many people have mentioned here, parts of the Mistral are built by Russia. For example, the hydraulic driver system for the propeller, and all the electronics system. That means France and NATO cannot jerk off with these Mistral.

    And if the Mistral contract is broken, many French workers may lost the jobs.

    And the international public will see that Hollande is not the President of France, but a prostitute of Washington DC.
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    Post  wilhelm Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:34 pm

    I was wondering what posters opinions are if the Mistrals are not delivered.

    I know that the USSR had the Kherson design in the 1980's, but obviously things have moved on since then.

    In the event of the Mistrals not being delivered, is there a Russian design out there that would be considered?
    I'm assuming that various shipyards must have had designs that perhaps competed or were put forward originally before the Mistral was selected?
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:21 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    par far wrote:What will Russia do of it does not get the Mistrals? Can Russia build its own?

    Yeah, why not?  Just means they will have to spend more money to design one.  Mistral is small compared to the aircraft carrier they did for India.  Difference is, they will need a new design.  BTW, part of the Mistral was made in Russia, and the other part was made in France, where the two parts combined.

    They don't need extra money or time for design. They already built one mistral. Worst case they can RE. They will just be 2-3 years off schedule which is enough of a blow.
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    Mistral News thread - Page 23 Empty Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  GarryB Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:03 am

    As far as I know, Mistral contract is the compensation for France. After Soyuz had defeated Ariane in the Gallieo project, Russia agreed to buy French Mistral so that France can still gain some money after the defeat of Ariane.

    Not the way things work... or what did Russia get when the Rafale won the Indian MMRCA competition?

    Russia also want some information in the design of Mistral. But some people commented that Mistral belongs to the class of "2nd-rate ferry of Manche", not "1st-rate ferry of Baltics", therefore the techs in Mistral are not something very special.

    It was a mature tested design that could be put into production rapidly and they could get into service within a couple of years of signing the contract. Any new design would need competition and comprehensive testing which would take a decade.

    That is the reason why these Russian Mistrals have much higher price than the original Mistrals. Actually, many Russian people had protested against the Mistral contract.

    the higher price was because they are basically handing over the entire technology for the vessel... the third and fourth vessel... if ordered would be built in Russia and licence production is never cheaper than having the maker make them for you.

    I was wondering what posters opinions are if the Mistrals are not delivered.

    I know that the USSR had the Kherson design in the 1980's, but obviously things have moved on since then.

    In the event of the Mistrals not being delivered, is there a Russian design out there that would be considered?
    I'm assuming that various shipyards must have had designs that perhaps competed or were put forward originally before the Mistral was selected?

    As mentioned these vessels are just helicopter barges... nothing too complicated or special, but obviously the last few years the Mistral deal has been signed so progress on any domestic equivalent would be unlikely.

    With the design and construction plans they could easily build more Mistrals, but I suspect part of the ToT would require royalty fees be paid for Russian production vessels.

    I rather suspect if the Mistral deal falls through they will start a domestic program to design and build replacements but such vessels would not be ready till at least 2020.

    I think the Mistral would be rather useful in the arctic and near the Kurile isles... without them I suspect they might perhaps change the force structure in the north and far east to compensate with more ground based helos till new carriers are ready.
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    Post  par far Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:08 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    As far as I know, Mistral contract is the compensation for France. After Soyuz had defeated Ariane in the Gallieo project, Russia agreed to buy French Mistral so that France can still gain some money after the defeat of Ariane.

    Not the way things work... or what did Russia get when the Rafale won the Indian MMRCA competition?

    Russia also want some information in the design of Mistral. But some people commented that Mistral belongs to the class of "2nd-rate ferry of Manche", not "1st-rate ferry of Baltics", therefore the techs in Mistral are not something very special.

    It was a mature tested design that could be put into production rapidly and they could get into service within a couple of years of signing the contract. Any new design would need competition and comprehensive testing which would take a decade.

    That is the reason why these Russian Mistrals have much higher price than the original Mistrals. Actually, many Russian people had protested against the Mistral contract.

    the higher price was because they are basically handing over the entire technology for the vessel... the third and fourth vessel... if ordered would be built in Russia and licence production is never cheaper than having the maker make them for you.

    I was wondering what posters opinions are if the Mistrals are not delivered.

    I know that the USSR had the Kherson design in the 1980's, but obviously things have moved on since then.

    In the event of the Mistrals not being delivered, is there a Russian design out there that would be considered?
    I'm assuming that various shipyards must have had designs that perhaps competed or were put forward originally before the Mistral was selected?

    As mentioned these vessels are just helicopter barges... nothing too complicated or special, but obviously the last few years the Mistral deal has been signed so progress on any domestic equivalent would be unlikely.

    With the design and construction plans they could easily build more Mistrals, but I suspect part of the ToT would require royalty fees be paid for Russian production vessels.

    I rather suspect if the Mistral deal falls through they will start a domestic program to design and build replacements but such vessels would not be ready till at least 2020.

    I think the Mistral would be rather useful in the arctic and near the Kurile isles... without them I suspect they might perhaps change the force structure in the north and far east to compensate with more ground based helos till new carriers are ready.



    I think they probably started designing a ship domestically(or they must must be doing something domestically), when France backed out of the deal(with american pressure), then I think they probably started doing something.
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    Mistral News thread - Page 23 Empty Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  sepheronx Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:20 pm

    wilhelm wrote:I was wondering what posters opinions are if the Mistrals are not delivered.

    I know that the USSR had the Kherson design in the 1980's, but obviously things have moved on since then.

    In the event of the Mistrals not being delivered, is there a Russian design out there that would be considered?
    I'm assuming that various shipyards must have had designs that perhaps competed or were put forward originally before the Mistral was selected?

    My opinion is that if not deliverd, france shpuld be held accountable and force to pay back Russia. If neither happens, Russia should strip French assets (Based uoon Russian court approval of course) of equal value in Russia (so thales who works with uomz on licensed tech, renault of the renault-nissan collaberation which owns lada, etc). And make their own or work with another country willing to give a proper license and none of these sillyness.

    Problem is France's hollende has this idiotic view that he somehow has both moral and political right to have the Ukrainian situation (which him and his ilk created, but blames Russia for) as some sort of stilulation in the contract signed, which would not be in the contract because contract was signed long before this situation haopened. So effectively, it proves that contracts, at least with France, afe not worth the paper they are written on and the country cannot be trusted to do business with. Which may hurt further deals with france and other third parties in the future.

    But, the midget troll that is hollende, has such low approval rating and people in France are so pissed at him over this, I doubt he will see another term. I bet many in France are missing Charles De Gaul and hope they get a second one of him. Cause he catered to France, not Washington.
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    Post  AlfaT8 Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:25 pm

    par far wrote:
    I think they probably started designing a ship domestically(or they must must be doing something domestically), when France backed out of the deal(with american pressure), then I think they probably started doing something.
    And it begins.
    Russia to start building own helicopter carriers

    The Navy has put construction of Russia’s own amphibious assault ships on a long-term program of shipbuilding for up to 2050 and these plans have been endorsed by the Defense Ministry, a source says

    MOSCOW, December 11. /TASS/. Designing and manufacturing of own universal amphibious assault helicopter carriers is part and parcel of a long-term program of naval shipbuilding through to 2050, a high-rank source in the Russian defense sector told TASS on Thursday.

    “The Navy has put construction of Russia’s own amphibious assault ships on a long-term program of shipbuilding for up to 2050 and these plans have been endorsed by the Defense Ministry,” he said. “The document envisions (the emergence of) these ships, many such ships actually.”

    The Russian Navy needs universal amphibious assault ships similar to the French Mistrals, or the ships that would be somewhat smaller in size and tonnage. Such ships will be able to solve many more combat tasks than the bid amphibious assault ships of the Ivan Gren type, under construction now.

    When TASS asked the source where the Russian helicopter carriers would be designed, he mentioned the Nevsky and Northern Design Bureaus, “as both of them have done important enough exploratory works on universal amphibious ships.”
    http://itar-tass.com/en/russia/766498
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    Post  Vann7 Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:30 am

    wilhelm wrote:I was wondering what posters opinions are if the Mistrals are not delivered.

    It will be better for me if Russia cancel them and receive money back.. I do not trust France and even if delivery ,
    you will not be sure if the warship have spy tools that reveals in a second the location of the mistrals to NATO every time .  To give you an example.. why Russia cannot trust in NATO .. IRAN for example bought machine parts from europe years ago for its nuclear reactor.. under careful inspection.. the machines had hidden mechanical hacks inside..
    specifically done to sabotage IRAN nuclear reactor. .and provoke a chernovile in IRAN.

    So the Mistral could come with nasty surprises inside.. spy hardware ,that could reveal the ship location to NATO at all times.. from satellite
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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:10 pm


    I think they probably started designing a ship domestically(or they must must be doing something domestically), when France backed out of the deal(with american pressure), then I think they probably started doing something.

    Russias domestic ship building industry will have been listening and watching events as they unfold, and will likely have their own plans and designs, which unfortunately are untested because they are not built yet. I suspect they have learned a lot of producing half of the two Mistrals built and would be incorporating such things in their own designs, but anything they were working on would need extensive full scale testing to make sure it is OK... stuff the actual Mistrals have already been through years ago.

    I don't think it will take as long now to develop a Russian equivalent, than it would have when the requirement was first drawn up, and of course making a domestic design means it would be better adapted to Russian sensors and weapons and systems than Mistral was and there might be a change in proportion of payload while they have the chance...

    Getting the vessels they paid for would still be the fastest solution and would mean much more time to develop a future replacement vessel.

    So the Mistral could come with nasty surprises inside.. spy hardware ,that could reveal the ship location to NATO at all times.. from satellite

    The US did the same with computer chips it sold to the Soviet Union that it knew were being used in nuclear power stations.

    It is not an accident that the first two Mistrals will go to the Pacific Fleet, while the two potentially built in Russia will operate in the Northern Fleet in the arctic.

    Russia wont trust France either...

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    Post  F-15E Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:11 pm

    Russians training on Mistral warship ‘to leave France’

    Some 400 Russian sailors training on a Mistral-class warship France controversially built for their navy will be returning home for an unspecified amount of time, the ship’s French builder has said.

    "I can confirm that the Russian sailors will return (to Russia) before the end of year," a spokesman for shipbuilder DCNS told AFP news agency on Wednesday.

    The spokesman did not give a date for the sailors' departure and could not say whether they would return to the port city of Saint-Nazaire, where the ship was built.

    The sailors have been training since June on board the “Vladivostok”, one of two Mistral-class helicopter carriers destined for the Russian navy according to the terms of a €1.2 billion ($1.58 billion) deal signed in 2011.

    The contract has been subject to months of intense speculation, with Paris coming under intense pressure from its NATO allies to scrap delivery of the ships due to Russia’s behaviour in the Ukrainian crisis.

    President François Hollande suspended the delivery of the first of the two ships “until further notice” last month citing lack of progress in Ukraine, where Russia is accused of arming pro-Moscow rebels in the country’s east.

    His defence minister, Jean-Yves Le Drian, later said the ships might “never be delivered”.

    Russia has warned Paris of "serious" consequences if France reneges on the deal.

    Last month, Deputy Defence Minister Yuri Borisov told the ITAR-TASS news agency that if France ultimately fails to fulfil its side of the deal, Russia will “go to court and impose fines”.

    France’s naval industry considers the Mistral one of its engineering jewels, with the navy dubbing the ship the “Swiss army knife”.

    It is designed to carry as many as a dozen assault helicopters, sixty armoured vehicles, and a dozen tanks. It can also host up to 700 troops and a full hospital.


    http://www.france24.com/en/20141217-russian-sailors-disputed-warship-mistral-leave-france-ukraine-nazaire/
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    Post  Firebird Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:14 pm

    F-15E wrote:Russians training on Mistral warship ‘to leave France’

    Some 400 Russian sailors training on a Mistral-class warship France controversially built for their navy will be returning home for an unspecified amount of time, the ship’s French builder has said.

    "I can confirm that the Russian sailors will return (to Russia) before the end of year," a spokesman for shipbuilder DCNS told AFP news agency on Wednesday.

    The spokesman did not give a date for the sailors' departure and could not say whether they would return to the port city of Saint-Nazaire, where the ship was built.

    The sailors have been training since June on board the “Vladivostok”, one of two Mistral-class helicopter carriers destined for the Russian navy according to the terms of a €1.2 billion ($1.58 billion) deal signed in 2011.

    The contract has been subject to months of intense speculation, with Paris coming under intense pressure from its NATO allies to scrap delivery of the ships due to Russia’s behaviour in the Ukrainian crisis.

    President François Hollande suspended the delivery of the first of the two ships “until further notice” last month citing lack of progress in Ukraine, where Russia is accused of arming pro-Moscow rebels in the country’s east.

    His defence minister, Jean-Yves Le Drian, later said the ships might “never be delivered”.

    Russia has warned Paris of "serious" consequences if France reneges on the deal.

    Last month, Deputy Defence Minister Yuri Borisov told the ITAR-TASS news agency that if France ultimately fails to fulfil its side of the deal, Russia will “go to court and impose fines”.

    France’s naval industry considers the Mistral one of its engineering jewels, with the navy dubbing the ship the “Swiss army knife”.

    It is designed to carry as many as a dozen assault helicopters, sixty armoured vehicles, and a dozen tanks. It can also host up to 700 troops and a full hospital.


    http://www.france24.com/en/20141217-russian-sailors-disputed-warship-mistral-leave-france-ukraine-nazaire/

    Boohoohoo.

    Bet the castrated garlic breathed homosexuals are really proud of themselves...

    PS on the topic of France, I cant help but think the CEO of Total Oil was murdered in Moscow.
    I dont believe in "coincidences". Thats got CIA written all over it.
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    Post  F-15E Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:32 pm

    It is better to France to cancel the mistral deal.
    Canceling the Mistral deal will have no influence over India buying 126 Rafale aircrafts from France for ~12 billion euros and would open doors for 29 billion euros tenders in Poland and Australia. Very Happy
    France would have to refund ~800 million euros already paid by Russia (if i'm not wrong) and pay a penalty of ~260 million euros in case of non delivery,The total that Russia can claim in case of cancelation is therefore around 1 billion euros... not 3 to 10 billion euros as you sometimes can read in russian medias. thumbsup
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    Post  zidzu Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:01 am

    F-15E wrote:It is better to France to cancel the mistral deal.
    Canceling the Mistral deal will have no influence over India buying 126 Rafale aircrafts from France for ~12 billion euros and would open doors for 29 billion euros tenders in Poland and Australia. Very Happy
    France would have to refund ~800 million euros already paid by Russia (if i'm not wrong) and pay a penalty of ~260 million euros in case of non delivery,The total that Russia can claim in case of cancelation is therefore around 1 billion euros... not 3 to 10 billion euros as you sometimes can read in russian medias. thumbsup

    If this is the case why ? Russia is not sue the French over this deleay and claim the money form the
    ” DCNS “
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    Post  higurashihougi Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:27 am

    F-15E wrote:It is better to France to cancel the mistral deal.
    Canceling the Mistral deal will have no influence over India buying 126 Rafale aircrafts from France for ~12 billion euros and would open doors for 29 billion euros tenders in Poland and Australia. Very Happy
    France would have to refund ~800 million euros already paid by Russia (if i'm not wrong) and pay a penalty of ~260 million euros in case of non delivery,The total that Russia can claim in case of cancelation is therefore around 1 billion euros... not 3 to 10 billion euros as you sometimes can read in russian medias. thumbsup

    And the shipbuilidng workers will take Hollande out of Paris and throw him into the ocean.

    Tell you this.

    NATO cannot jerk off with these Mistral because it is specifically designed for Russia. Russia is the one whol bulit posterior part of the ship, and the electronic systems.

    All the world now can clearly see that Hollande and the French goverment are just prostitutes and slaves of Washington DC. They are selling French people to Washington DC, and France has become the colony of Washington DC.
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    Post  Zivo Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:24 pm

    I actually enjoy watching Hollande make himself look like a stooge. He's a puppet, and everyone can see his strings.

    The 2017 elections are going to been fun to watch.
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    Mistral News thread - Page 23 Empty The french are not a serious people

    Post  Kyo Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:19 am

    As you say in french: pas serieux les français!
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    Post  Werewolf Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:25 am

    Zivo wrote:I actually enjoy watching Hollande make himself look like a stooge. He's a puppet, and everyone can see his strings.

    The 2017 elections are going to been fun to watch.

    Only if those are elections and not selections.
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    Post  Kyo Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:34 pm

    As Dostoievsky once said: the French have no judgement and would consider the worst disaster the fact of possessing it.
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    Post  F-15E Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:45 pm

    Russian Sailors Left France Without The Mistral. Very Happy


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    Post  bantugbro Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:22 pm

    F-15E wrote:Russian Sailors Left France Without The Mistral. Very Happy


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    But they left with the blue print including the main computer board and hard drives with full of data... welcome
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon


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    Mistral News thread - Page 23 Empty Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  magnumcromagnon Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:59 pm

    F-15E wrote:Russian Sailors Left France Without The Mistral. Very Happy


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    They have the blueprints to build them on their own, plus it's stipulated in the contract that if France doesn't delivery they will have to pay a huge fine that greatly exceeds the cost of delivering their helicopter carriers... Razz

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