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    Mistral News thread

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:04 am

    They should cancel the mistrals...
    I do not see in what way they will be needed in the pacific with Ka-52 helicopters?
    So expensive transport ship cannot is purely for attack purpose and there are no pirates in the pacific .
    Perhaps you should do a little research first... there are plenty of pirate attacks in the Pacific and Pacific rim... in the area around Indonesia there are probably more pirates than around Africa, but in any case a helicopter landing vessel would not be the ideal vessel for anti piracy missions anyway.

    The Mistrals strengthen Russian forces in the Pacific and guarantee the security of the Kurile Islands.

    As a secondary mission they can be used for humanitarian purposes like the earthquake in Myanma... the Pacific Rim is notorious for seismic activity and floods and hurricanes and other natural disasters are quite likely events in the future... especially with warming conditions.

    As an added bonus... the non nuclear powered Mistrals can be sent to Pacific countries on missions to meet and greet and its onboard hospital could be utilised by going to the various island nations of the pacific and offering healthcare to people who would otherwise just suffer in silence. Such good will visits earn the US a lot of brownie points despite the damage they have done in the region with their nuclear testing and other short sighted adventures.


    The money spent developing the naval Ka-52 could lead to countries like Indonesia adopting small ships with a few (3-5) helos on board to support island hopping operations.

    -Fully modernize Peter the great too, with latest kalibr missiles and S-400 and pantsir defenses ,naval version.
    The two Kirov class vessels are likely to get major upgrades anyway.

    -or fully repair modernize the Aircraft Carrier to in transport more planes and include a few helicopters too.
    The Kuznetsov already carries a few dozen helos... to carry transports with any meaningful transport capacity they will need cats... the upgrade is already planned for and budgeted for too.

    -or have budget for another 2-3 brand new stealth destroyer. with latest sams and missiles.
    They are already making such vessels and it is production that is the problem not money... cancelling the Mistrals would leave them with a huge penalty for the already largely complete vessel and likely another financial penalty for stopping the other vessel and they will not end up with any freed up cash... and even if they did that freed up cash would not put any stealth destroyers into service any quicker.

    Emergency relief maybe, but Ka-52s are useless for that.
    Naval Ka-52s will have powerful radar and likely very good optical search systems which would be ideal for search and rescue in bad weather. The four weapons pylons could carry rescue equipment that could be dropped to survivors or just extra fuel to extend the operational range of the aircraft.

    Black Sea is a more convincing location in this case, or piracy patrols. That is assuming you are going to strike inland bases.
    Mistrals in the Black Sea would be like a shark in a gold fish bowl... over such short ranges air dropping would be much faster.

    In the Pacific there is Japan, and China that can be belligerent to Russia... there is also a few countries Russia could improve relations with like Vietnam and Indonesia. Had Russia had a few Mistrals when the flooding occurred in Myanma a couple of years back a lot could have been done to save lives and build stronger ties with a country that has no love or trust of the west.
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    Post  medo Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:57 pm

    Ka-52 is not a plane, but helicopter. This is true. But still not every navy have carriers, but big majority have corvettes, frigated and destroyers equipped with helicopters. Ka-52K will be well equipped helicopter to defend Mistral group and support marines in their operation. New radar and excellent ESM equipment will give impressive armament to Ka-52K with AA misiles, antiship missiles, antiradar missiles, ATGMs and other armament. They could well protect fleet against enemy helicopters with AA armament, attack enemy ships, attack enemy AD on the shore and give CAS to marines in battles on the shores.

    Main task of Mistrals in Pacific and maybe as well in Northern fleet will be to protect Sakhalin and Kuril islands as well as northern naval route in Arctic sea. There are not many ground forces, so Mistrals will have important role to deploy forces in this region.
    TheArmenian
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    Post  TheArmenian Sun Oct 27, 2013 6:34 pm

    Ka-52K is a powerful asset in naval warfare.

    - It can use Kh-35 missiles for anti-ship strikes just as well as a MiG-29K can.
    - It can use Ataka, Vikhr, Khrizantema, Hermes  and other precision guided weapons against both naval and ground targets just as well as a MIG-29K can.
    - It can use unguided rockets and bombs just as well as a MiG-29K can.

    In fact, in the air to sea or air to ground roles, it can do everything a naval fighter like MiG-29K can (it just flies slower and has a shorter range).
    The only mission it is not as effective as a naval fighter is air to air.

    In addition, the Ka-52K has the flexibility to take off from the Mistral type mother-ship, land and refuel on destroyer sized ship a few hundred miles away, and take off to strike at naval or sea targets. Aircraft can not do that.
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    Post  flamming_python Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:23 pm

    TR1 wrote:He makes a good point though, Mistrals+ Ka-52 won't be doing much of anything in the Pacific. Emergency relief maybe, but Ka-52s are useless for that.

    Black Sea is a more convincing location in this case, or piracy patrols. That is assuming you are going to strike inland bases.

    The whole concept is funky and I am still critical of the whole program.
    In the Pacific they have a whole lot to do:

    Humanitarian assistance to disaster areas (no need to use the Ka-52s here; just the Mistral will be enough)
    Support any sort of UN military or peacekeeping operations that might crop up anywhere along the Pacific coast of Asia or the Americas
    Landing operations in case the Jips take the Kurils by surprise
    Anti-ship and ASW warfare (Ka-52s armed with the appropriate missiles + Ka-31s)
    Hospital ship for the Pacific Fleet, both while at home port and for away missions (they could probably use some modern extra capacity)

    Even in the roles here where the Ka-52 doesn't have a place; it can still stick around to defend the ship from threats.
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    Post  dionis Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:51 am

    TR1 wrote:
    dionis wrote:The fact that there is only one dry dock large enough to work on ships of that size is pretty pathetic. Neutral
    How many ships of that size does Russia operate?

    Not so pathetic anymore.
    Ahem ahem... they sure WANT to operate more ships of that size. At this rate, there's never going to be any real progress in having a sizable force of larger ships.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:41 am

    Ka-52 is not a plane, but helicopter.
    The Ka-52K is certainly not a plane, but with its AESA radar and 2.5 ton weapon capacity it would be very much a Harrier type asset for the Mistrals as it will have excellent air and surface detection capabilities in all weathers down to the wave tops, which will reduce the effectiveness of enemy anti ship missile attacks or low flying aircraft.

    Its ability to carry next generation AAMs will likely make it as potent as many previous generation fighters.

    Air cover would ideally be provided by a fixed wing carrier like the K or land based aircraft, but in an emergency a Ka-31 could provide AEW support and the Ka-52K a limited CAP.

    There are not many ground forces, so Mistrals will have important role to deploy forces in this region.
    Mistrals would be the most efficient way of moving troops with their equipment in the north and the pacific.

    The only mission it is not as effective as a naval fighter is air to air.
    Quite true, though in air to air engagements it will be in serious trouble against an F-35 or F/A-18, but against a EP-3 Orion or MPA it would actually be rather dangerous armed with R-73s and R-77s.

    In addition, the Ka-52K has the flexibility to take off from the Mistral type mother-ship, land and refuel on destroyer sized ship a few hundred miles away, and take off to strike at naval or sea targets. Aircraft can not do that.
    Excellent point. It could also do the same via ice breakers... most of the Russian icebreakers having helicopter landing spots and support equipment.

    Even in the roles here where the Ka-52 doesn't have a place; it can still stick around to defend the ship from threats.
    Nothing says stop being a pirate like this:

    Mistral News thread - Page 12 0_2c8110

    The Ka-52 in its land based form is largely an armed recon helo and for many humanitarian missions searching for survivors is critical... monitoring air space to prevent collisions and direct helos... those weapon pylons don't have to carry death and destruction... life rafts, survival equipment, even UAV dispensors used to deliver medical supplies... even to deal with looters or unrest if need be.
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    Post  Flyingdutchman Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:03 pm

    I like those ka-52k helo's cant they put a few on the K?
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    Post  TheArmenian Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:07 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:I like those ka-52k helo's cant they put a few on the K?
    Sshhhhhh.....don't say it so loud. You are revealing a tightly kept secret.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:08 am

    I would expect the Ka-52K would be an excellent addition to the K, and I also think that a few Ka-31s from the K would be a useful addition to Mistral class carriers... and I suspect France might even consider such aircraft for their Mistrals too...
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    Post  Flyingdutchman Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:48 pm

    Haha Nice. I heard that The british were going to put apaches on the queen Elizabeth so i thought why The russians not?
    Will there be à deal between the french and russian about the KA-52K? Or Will the french probably design their own?
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    Post  Werewolf Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:04 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:Haha Nice. I heard that The british were going to put apaches on the queen Elizabeth so i thought why The russians not?
    Will there be à deal between the french and russian about the KA-52K? Or Will the french probably design their own?
    Germany and France were planning to equip the EC665 Tiger with all measurements for Naval use, so i don't think so.
    Also i would not wish that any NATO member and actually that Iraq will not recieve Ka-52, since Iraq has today a US bitch as its government.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Nov 02, 2013 8:21 am

    Actually having a little think about it... they probably would only be interested in the Ka-64 as the other aircraft have such high main rotor systems they wont fit on French Mistrals anyway.

    A foreign country that is on friendly terms with Russia might order an altered Mistral to carry Russian aircraft however... depends on how successful they are.
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    Post  sepheronx Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:45 pm

    GarryB wrote:Actually having a little think about it... they probably would only be interested in the Ka-64 as the other aircraft have such high main rotor systems they wont fit on French Mistrals anyway.

    A foreign country that is on friendly terms with Russia might order an altered Mistral to carry Russian aircraft however... depends on how successful they are.
    Wont happen.

    Politics, and economics stands in the way. France would be more interested in getting their Tigers up on the Mistral before they would be willing to buy Ka helicopters from Russia. Simply put, NATO high command would go apeshit over it, Politicians in France and elsewhere would go nuts as well saying things like "You are financially aiding the enemy" and "Why not support domestic European designs?". It would be political suicide if they did.

    The only thing France purchased from Russia was laser guided artillery shells with some of mixed quality. I believe it was a good will deal as they purchase something while Russia purchase something. Now, it is just Russia purchases something.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Nov 02, 2013 10:37 pm

    As I mentioned in my previous post France wont buy them because they wont fit in the hangars of the French Mistral.

    The main chance for export would be for a country to want a Mistral class vessel to be equipped from the outset with Kamovs which would mean they could buy the Mistrals modified the way the Russians had them modified, then they would be compatible... and likely be much better armed in terms of self defence too.
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    Post  Vann7 Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:52 pm

    The KA-52 will be very vulnerable for naval operations.. Any pirate with a fishing boat could pull a manpad and blow
    the aligator in pieces when they facing another direction. They are too slow and easy targets for man pads with lazer guidance.
    Too slow to cover long distance fast ,
    too small for humanitarian use.. can only carry 2 passenger or perhaps 3..  The mistral is too expensive for an humanitarian ship,
    for mas evacuation you could simply develop a civilian ship that will be far cheaper.  you all can say what you want but even
    others Top ranked Russian generals/ministers have complained about how useless are this mistral for Russia.

    What is even more questionable is they buying 2-4.. Biggest waste of money ever . The mistrals with Ka-52s will not become
    a deterrent to anyone other than pirates ,because any decent combat plane can detect the Ka-52 and shut it down from very large
    distances . helicopters were never intended to 1 vs 1 combat jets ,even if they can do it.In my opinion they buying the
    mistrals only to lure France away of Syria. To buy their cooperation with them. And Helicopters like Ka-52 its place belong
    to the army ,for close combat support to infantry. If they ever used in the sea close to insurgents they will be fall like flies
    from the air. Contrary to Ground fights in Urban zones ,in close combat support to infrantry ,In the open sea there is nothing blocking the view of anyone with a manpad. and the will be no infantry protecting it ,they will be alone vs terrorist. and they will be  will be an easy prey to any combat plane. THey werent designed for air superiority but for close ground support.

    For humanitarian missions again wrong helicopter.  for that a transport helicopter like mi-8 will be far more useful.
    To rescue people when their boat sinks. with the money they will spend in mistrals they could also modernize but also expand  
    their ship buildings facilities that they seriously need. So that they can produce more warships at the same time and
    significantly speed their production.
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    Post  Werewolf Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:26 pm

    The KA-52 will be very vulnerable for naval operations.. Any pirate with a fishing boat could pull a manpad and blow the aligator in pieces when they facing another direction. wrote:
    Haha, missed i something? Are there now pimp pirates with lot of money for a MANPAD?
    You know why this somali pirates are pirating? Because they are living in a shithole, without any jobs that bring money to feed their people and you want now to tell us they can still buy a MANPAD for someone that makes average 10$ per month?

    They are too slow and easy targets for man pads with lazer guidance. Too slow to cover long distance fast , wrote:
    Ka-52's today are the safest Attack helicopters, they have the current most effecient protection against any MANPAD. The only solution for today's IIR-seeking MANPADs SAM's are DIRCM's since IIR-seeker can filter between countermeasures like Flares and the actual aircraft.

    The mistrals with Ka-52s will not become a deterrent to anyone other than pirates ,because any decent combat plane can detect the Ka-52 and shut it down from very large distances . helicopters were never intended to 1 vs 1 combat jets wrote:
    Attack Helicopters of current generations may not be designed like true air-to-air kings but even the Mi-25 the downgraded Mi-24D was able to shoot down jet fighters and it was never intented or built with Air-to-air engagement with its usual ATGM's nor any supporting electronic for any weapon.
    Since 1988 all russian Attack Helicopters are designed to have air-to-air engagement capabilities since the Cessna could land on the red square in 1987.

    The weapons computer and managing systemes are today on every AH in russia have supporting electronics for effecient air engagements.
    Since Ka-50/N they have image processing and semi-auto lockon capability, which is especially important in air engagements with the cannon on closer ranges. ATGM's of all Shturm,Ataka,Vikhr or any coming ATGM are capable of destroying any aircraft with specific flight speed and maneuverability, which so no problem for aircrafts in most of the time they are still flying on relative low altitudes and low speeds.

    To buy their cooperation with them. And Helicopters like Ka-52 its place belong to the army ,for close combat support to infantry. wrote:
    Close combat support to infantry? You mean infantry that is swimming in the open ocean?

    On the damn sea there is no obstacles no visual distrection to the bare eyes, a small target like a simple boat will be spot with bare eyes on distances that are far beyond any reach of such targets to get anywhere near to be counted as a threat. Ka-52 can shoot 12km with ATGM not counting newer Vikhr-M 15km.

    The only thing that will die like flies are simple targets as boats without proper SAM capability, especially when Ka-52 has AESA radar with higher distance than 12-20km with the current for boat sized targets.


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    Post  Vann7 Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:53 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    Haha, missed i something? Are there now pimp pirates with lot of money for a MANPAD?
    You know why this somali pirates are pirating? Because they are living in a shithole, without any jobs that bring money to feed their people and you want now to tell us they can still buy a MANPAD for someone that makes average 10$ per month?
    yes your missing a lot dude is not even fun. Seems you never have heard about the war in Syria ,and how Saudi Arabia supply weapons to terrorist including manpads . And somali pirates make millions kidnapping ships.. but thats up to you to investigate. Is not the lack of food or job why pirates exist but because is a very profitable business.



    Ka-52's today are the safest Attack helicopters, they have the current most effecient protection against any MANPAD. The only solution for today's IIR-seeking MANPADs SAM's are DIRCM's since IIR-seeker can filter between countermeasures like Flares and the actual aircraft.
    They could be the safest helicopters in the world ,still is irrelevant , they will not be able to operate in places where many fishing boats are.. every little boat could be a major threat to them ,and they will not know if they are terrorist or not until they have a missile chasing them.


    Attack Helicopters of current generations may not be designed like true air-to-air kings but even the Mi-25 the downgraded Mi-24D was able to shoot down jet fighters and it was never intented or built with Air-to-air engagement with its usual ATGM's nor any supporting electronic for any weapon. Since 1988 all russian Attack Helicopters are designed to have air-to-air engagement capabilities since the Cessna could land on the red square in 1987. The weapons computer and managing systemes are today on every AH in russia have supporting electronics for effecient air engagements.Since Ka-50/N they have image processing and semi-auto lockon capability, which is especially important in air engagements with the cannon on closer ranges.
    Good luck on using your Ka-52 to defeat F-35's ,F-16 ,F-15s ,Eurofigters ,Rafales or Japanesse combat jets..
    Again helicopters weather Ka-52 or apache longbow ,will be at serious disadvantage versus any combat jet.. PERIOD.


    ATGM's of all Shturm,Ataka,Vikhr or any coming ATGM are capable of destroying any aircraft with specific flight speed and maneuverability, which so no problem for aircrafts in most of the time they are still flying on relative low altitudes and low speeds.
    dito.. i never heard of a combat jet being shut down by a 7km short range guided rocket.. have you?
    Combat planes can shut down any helicopter from 100 to 160km distance. In Beyond Visual range and almost any distance
    the helicopter will lose very badly to a combat plane.. not even fun.



    Close combat support to infantry? You mean infantry that is swimming in the open ocean?
    No i mean attack helicopters role is to support Ground Infantry. both complement each other.. Similar to tanks combined with Infantry.
    In the sea there is nothing of support for any helicopter used for attack missions. will be alone. So on the damn sea you talk ,he will be at Major disadvantage because will NOT have any support will be alone ,and any fishing boat could have a terrorist with a manpad or even a Grenade launcher and destroy it .  What you totally ignores.. is the KA-52 will have to fly near legal civilians fishing boats many times. So they cannot shoot on every dam boat they notice on the sea ,just because is there,unless they know there is something illegal inside or are terrorist inside..and how will they know? they will not know..To know what is inside a boat you need to board it and inspect it. If they terrorist they will wait the right time a Ka-52 is close to shut it down..even with a rocket grenade can do it. that will cut like butter then Ka-52 windshield and kill the pilots.

    To defend its territory in the pacific Russia Mistral + Ka52 will have to face Japan destroyers + combat planes.
    So for sure Russia will need to also use Destroyers to help protect the mistrals.. So makes null the point of having a mistral
    after all. Anyway im not convinced why they needed.  Everyone is free to have its own opinions. i still think ,saving the money for more destroyers ,that the ones they already had planned or for a new brand new stealth Cruiser will be much more deterrence than a mistral with KA-52s.
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    Post  runaway Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:15 pm

    I think the Mistrals will be great for russian navy. Its a land assault ship which will be useful with KA52 as airsupport in LAND combat. In a naval engagement neither the ship or choppers will be offensive, they are valueble assets that will be protected by escorts and possible aircraft carriers.
    And no, no Helos will be of any match for fixed wing aircraft in a air-air battle, but against other Helos you must have AA capacity.
    It will carry KA27 that will be useful in humanitarian missions as well, not only troop transport.
    The Mistrals will be highly more useful than Ivan gren class, and can be used for peace enforcing mission without much escort. Great for Putin to use for showing the flag, enforce russian interests etc.

    With Mistrals the russian navy marines will become a offensive weapon, not just defensive.
    Hope they go for 4, one ot two based in BSF to be stationed in middle east would be very nice. And with 4, two would always be availeble, when others are in for overhaul.
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    Post  Werewolf Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:32 pm

    yes your missing a lot dude is not even fun. Seems you never have heard about the war in Syria ,and how Saudi Arabia supply weapons to terrorist including manpads . And somali pirates make millions kidnapping ships.. but thats up to you to investigate. Is not the lack of food or job why pirates exist but because is a very profitable business. wrote:
    Good joke, they make no profit, the success for getting randsom is almost zero and you really believe they after risking their lifes and making maybe little bit money, which they did to feed their people, you really think they will find in Somalia a high quality MANPAD seller? The Kill ratio of Stingers in Afghanistan was 2.19%. MANPADS will never be a threat for naval based helicopters since they will not even come into range to see this helicopters.

    They could be the safest helicopters in the world ,still is irrelevant , they will not be able to operate in places where many fishing boats are.. every little boat could be a major threat to them ,and they will not know if they are terrorist or not until they have a missile chasing them. wrote:
    Fishing boats you can repeat it as much as you want that doesn't make a stupid fishing boat a super duper advancd threat especially to aircrafts. You literally show how less you know about anti-pirate missions. They are NEVER performed by aircrafts, someone has to go on board to check if they hiding weapons, helicopter are giving air support in case. You are completley deluded if you think a Ka-52 will hover above a fishing boat and than open their doors to ask them if they are really fishers and not pirates....you seriously haven't thaught out your staff.
    Invalid argument.

    Good luck on using your Ka-52 to defeat F-35's ,F-16 ,F-15s ,Eurofigters ,Rafales or Japanesse combat jets.. Again helicopters weather Ka-52 or apache longbow ,will be at serious disadvantage versus any combat jet.. PERIOD. wrote:
    F-35 good joke someday when it comes into active service and functioning there will be already 5th generation attack helicopters and they are designed to deal with any threat on battlefield.
    F-16 and F-15 good joke again which Navy has them? Ka-52 can carry R-73 40km+ range, Jets will not engage in BVR from hundred km that is utterlly nonsense. Launches from BVR are so unreliable pilots are trying to give as less information about their precense as possible to get in a range where a high hit propability is given and in that range it will have enough countermeasure capability to be a threat to any aircraft. Jets were taken out before by downgraded export models for again such nonsense western philosophy like WVR jets of F-4, we saw that is bullshit, WVR is not an option.

    dito.. i never heard of a combat jet being shut down by a 7km short range guided rocket.. have you? Combat planes can shut down any helicopter from 100 to 160km distance. In Beyond Visual range and almost any distance the helicopter will lose very badly to a combat plane.. not even fun. wrote:
    Sure Ka-52K will fly without any Air-to-air missiles. First of all, Not one single russian ATGM has only 7km but 8km and that is only the Shturm which will not be used on Ka-52, Vikhr has 11.5km minimum or 15km, but that all is besides the point. It will be equiped with R-73 and KH-25 for anti-ship capabilities, Vikhr will be minimum untill Germes-A comes into service.

    Rest see above answer.

    To defend its territory in the pacific Russia Mistral + Ka52 will have to face Japan destroyers + combat planes. wrote:
    You seriously must have some mental issues.
    Not even the god damn USA empire will ever dare to attack russian navy, get the mess in your head straight before commenting such suicide nonsense.
    GarryB
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    Mistral News thread - Page 12 Empty I do not see in what way they will be needed in the pacific with Ka-52 helicopters?

    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:51 am

    The KA-52 will be very vulnerable for naval operations.. Any pirate with a fishing boat could pull a manpad and blow
    the aligator in pieces when they facing another direction. They are too slow and easy targets for man pads with lazer guidance.
    Helicopters are not super fast but boats are even slower... so the chance of pirates getting on the tail of a Ka-52 means the Ka-52 has done something wrong.

    The optics and sensors on the Ka-52 mean it will detect the pirates at much greater ranges than the pirates could ever hope to detect the helo... and more importantly the Ka-52 will be armed with weapons that will allow it to engage the pirates at distances where the pirates quite frankly wont know what hit them.

    Incoming missiles can be defeated with the small DIRCM that can be seen on the Ka-52 mounted near the main undercarriage... they contain laser dazzlers to defeat optically guided missile systems.

    Too slow to cover long distance fast ,
    300km/h+ is faster than any boat.

    too small for humanitarian use.. can only carry 2 passenger or perhaps 3.. The mistral is too expensive for an humanitarian ship,
    It would not be used as a transport... they already have Ka-29 and Ka-226T and Ka-64 helos as transports.

    Mistral is a helicopter carrier that will have a range of uses... humanitarian aid will be one of those uses... showing the flag and providing medical services to outlying regions like Pacific islands or poorer asian countries would be far more valuable to Russian interests in the region than any supercarrier weapon of war.

    The Mistrals are paid for so the more uses you get out of them the easier it is to justify their expense.

    for mas evacuation you could simply develop a civilian ship that will be far cheaper. you all can say what you want but even
    others Top ranked Russian generals/ministers have complained about how useless are this mistral for Russia.
    For mass evacuation having 16 heavy transport helos and a 100 bed state of the art equipped hospital would be incredibly useful... a few cruise liners can carry more people more efficiently but the Mistrals helos will get them from where ever they are to the cruise ships rather faster and rather safer than buses and the Ka-52Ks will ensure none of the local armed factions try to interfere with the evacuation.

    Many top ranked Russian officials lack imagination, or would prefer the Mistral to be a Russian designed and built ship... I would like that too of course but it would mean the first ship would enter service in 2022 at the earliest and there is no guarantee it would be any good.
    Mistral is a proven design adapted to Russian needs and will be ready next year!

    What is even more questionable is they buying 2-4..
    Makes no sense to just have one... what if it is in repair when it is needed? All that expense and you can't use it.

    2 Make sense if you just want them in the Pacific Fleet... if you want to defend the Arctic territory then 4 make sense.

    The mistrals with Ka-52s will not become
    a deterrent to anyone other than pirates ,because any decent combat plane can detect the Ka-52 and shut it down from very large
    distances . helicopters were never intended to 1 vs 1 combat jets ,even if they can do it.In my opinion they buying the
    mistrals only to lure France away of Syria.
    You seem to be a little confused... these Mistrals are not to replace the Kuznetsov, they are to replace the old Ivan Rogov landing ships. They are not intended to take on enemy carrier groups.

    And Helicopters like Ka-52 its place belong
    to the army ,for close combat support to infantry. If they ever used in the sea close to insurgents they will be fall like flies
    from the air. Contrary to Ground fights in Urban zones ,in close combat support to infrantry ,In the open sea there is nothing blocking the view of anyone with a manpad. and the will be no infantry protecting it ,they will be alone vs terrorist. and they will be will be an easy prey to any combat plane. THey werent designed for air superiority but for close ground support.
    They will be used to support Russian Naval Infantry landing operations by providing direct air support the same way Army Aviation Havocs and Hokums will support Army ground units.

    The "the enemy ground forces can spot helos from great distances and shoot them down" argument doesn't work because in the big flat ocean the AESA radar of the Ka-52K will detect even small row boats at 20km or more... it is those on the sea surface that will have no where to hide... in fact at sea the Kamov will actually be safer than over land as there is no cover or protection... they can't dig in.

    For humanitarian missions again wrong helicopter. for that a transport helicopter like mi-8 will be far more useful.
    An unarmed Ka-52K could use its advanced detection sensors and equipment to find people in distress and containers on its weapon pylons could be used to drop inflatable boats in case of flooding or emergency shelters and survival equipment... it could even use its power and a belly mounted grappling hook to pull a capsized yacht upright... who knows?

    ith the money they will spend in mistrals they could also modernize but also expand
    their ship buildings facilities that they seriously need.
    They are spending money on expanding their boat building capacity and they are also increasing orders so that new capacity is used.

    Since 1988 all russian Attack Helicopters are designed to have air-to-air engagement capabilities since the Cessna could land on the red square in 1987.
    Not really true. When the Mig-23s sent by the PVO to investigate found it was a civilian cessna they handed the "interception" duty to the nearest air unit, which was an Army Aviation unit. They sometimes are sent to intercept balloons too, but without radar they had trouble tracking down Rusts plane and he landed before they could find him and force him to a nearby airfield.

    The Ka-52K on the other hand will have AESA radar and the capacity to carry modern AAMs like R-73 and R-77 which would make them rather better equipped than any other helicopter in history to deal with enemy aircraft.

    Lack of speed and short range would still be an issue of course.

    yes your missing a lot dude is not even fun. Seems you never have heard about the war in Syria ,and how Saudi Arabia supply weapons to terrorist including manpads . And somali pirates make millions kidnapping ships.. but thats up to you to investigate. Is not the lack of food or job why pirates exist but because is a very profitable business.
    Even if every pirate had a MANPAD the DIRCMs on the Ka-52K and its standoff weapons would still mean my money would be on the helo.

    They could be the safest helicopters in the world ,still is irrelevant , they will not be able to operate in places where many fishing boats are.. every little boat could be a major threat to them ,and they will not know if they are terrorist or not until they have a missile chasing them.
    Just follow the smoke trails from the MANPADS back to the boats and destroy them. DIRCMs will defeat the missiles incoming.

    Good luck on using your Ka-52 to defeat F-35's ,F-16 ,F-15s ,Eurofigters ,Rafales or Japanesse combat jets..
    Of course the Ka-52 can defeat all of those... don't forget to include B-2, F-22, and SR-73... the replacement for the SR-72 which isn't in service yet.

    If your objection to the Mistral is that it is not a replacement for the Kuznetsov then your objection is pointless... the US Marines should retire all their useless Tarawa class carriers too because they are inferior to the new US fixed wing carriers.

    Again helicopters weather Ka-52 or apache longbow ,will be at serious disadvantage versus any combat jet.. PERIOD.
    And that is why they are putting them on Mistral class helicopter landing vessels and not replacing Mig-29Ks on the Kuznetsov with them... Rolling Eyes 

    Combat planes can shut down any helicopter from 100 to 160km distance. In Beyond Visual range and almost any distance
    the helicopter will lose very badly to a combat plane.. not even fun.
    When.

    In the sea there is nothing of support for any helicopter used for attack missions. will be alone.
    What do you think the Kuznetsov will be doing?

    If the enemy has air power the Russians are hardly likely to send a Mistral class helicopter carrier in without fixed wing air support.

    If it is an anti piracy operation there is no reason for a Ka-52K to get within 3km of a fishing vessel that is about to be boarded... and funny business and Vikhr will cover the 3km twice as fast as an RPG-7 grenade except the Vikhr can kill at 10km while the RPG self destructs at 900m.

    To defend its territory in the pacific Russia Mistral + Ka52 will have to face Japan destroyers + combat planes.
    With the support of land based Su-35s and PAK FA...

    So for sure Russia will need to also use Destroyers to help protect the mistrals.. So makes null the point of having a mistral
    after all.
    If you are landing ground forces having a helicopter carrier means you can land troops and vehicle 100 times faster... and it is the period when the troops are landing that they are at their most vulnerable... helos landing them moves them much faster and safer than zodiacs and Ka-52s offering fire support means enemy troops will be keeping their heads down rather than firing back.

    Enemy aircraft will be dealt with via air support... not helos.

    Anyway im not convinced why they needed. Everyone is free to have its own opinions. i still think ,saving the money for more destroyers ,that the ones they already had planned or for a new brand new stealth Cruiser will be much more deterrence than a mistral with KA-52s.
    The money saved not getting Mistrals would not buy that many new other ships and more importantly the new ships it would buy would not enter service for another 5-10 years anyway.
    Sujoy
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    Mistral News thread - Page 12 Empty Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Sujoy Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:01 am

    Mistral - Pics

    http://englishrussia.com/2013/11/11/new-helicopter-carriers-for-the-russian-navy/
    Deep Throat
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    Mistral News thread - Page 12 Empty Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Deep Throat Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:10 am

    Navantia's Juan Carlos I is a better ship than the Mistral .

    Top of my head Navantia had competed in 2009 for the Russian Navy's contract but lost though they won the contract in Australia and may well win the contract in India as well .

    It's probably a strategic decision taken by the Kremlin to go for the Mistral .
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    Mistral News thread - Page 12 Empty Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  runaway Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:15 pm

    Deep Throat wrote:Navantia's Juan Carlos I  is a better ship than the Mistral .

    Top of my head Navantia had competed in 2009 for the Russian Navy's contract but lost  though they won the contract in Australia and may well win the contract in India as well .

    It's probably a strategic decision taken by the Kremlin to go for the Mistral .
    I don´t think so, as neither russia or india has harrier(or will have) type aircraft they have no use for it. They on the other hand has real carriers, something Spain lacks.
    Capacity as troop assault role is nearly identical between Mistral and Juan Carlos, as helicopters. And F-35 will be less capable than MiG-29k, also its uncertain if F-35 ever will be operational.
    No i tend to think Mistral type would perhaps be better for spain, as in a more serious conflict the AV8 harrier is no match for modern generation 4+ fighters.


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    Mistral News thread - Page 12 Empty Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Deep Throat Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:01 pm

    runaway wrote:I don´t think so, as neither russia or india has harrier(or will have) type aircraft they have no use for it. They on the other hand has real carriers, something Spain lacks.
    Russia , India intend to operate helos from these type of Ships .

    runaway wrote:Capacity as troop assault role is nearly identical between Mistral and Juan Carlos, as helicopters. And F-35 will be less capable than MiG-29k, also its uncertain if F-35 ever will be operational.
    Troop capacity similar but not for helos . These are the specs :

    Juan Carlos I

    Specs

    201.9m-long and 32m-wide flight deck with a 12° sky-jump facility for VSTOL aircraft

    22 Helos

    The hangar can accommodate 12 aircraft, while six aircraft can be parked on the flight deck.

    The vessel's displacement for air operations is 24,660t and maximum sustained speed is 21kt.

    Flooding deck can carry four LCM-1E/LCM-8 + 4/6 SUPERCAT type RIBs, one LCAC and LVTs. Displacement of the LHD for amphibious operations is 27,079t, while the maximum sustained speed is 19.5kt.

    It has an endurance of 9,000NM at 15kt


    Mistral

    Specs

    The ship has the capacity to carry up to 16 medium or heavy helicopters below deck

    5,000m² flight deck

    6 landing spots and a 1,800m² hangar

    The maximum speed is 19kt and the range at 14kt is 11,000nm.



    Ergo , the Juan Carlos I is a better ship both in terms of Performance and Capability .
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    Post  runaway Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:31 pm

    I dont agree, maybe for spain the Juan carlos is better, but not for russia as they dont have VSTOL aircraft...
    However, the Vladivostok will carry 8 KA-52 as standard, Juan carlos has 0 attack helos. NH-90 is a allround helo.

    As for AV8 harrier, it will proably only carry 4 as standard, and up to 12 with no Helos onboard. But AV8 is obselete against modern fighters.
    With F-35 it will pack punch, but i rather see a real carrier in a hotspot.

    A mistral with 900 marines, 16 T-90 and 34 BMP-3, 4 landing craft, 8 KA-52, 4 KA-27, 4 KA-29, with CV Kuznetsov 28 MiG-29K + 17 Helos along is far better than one Juan carlos, or two or three!


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